Impressions from TV | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Impressions from TV

*Lambiel's Flamenco is probably the best LP we've seen since Gladiator/MITIM from Yagudin. If you figure in all of the technical elements as well, though

*Lysacek's LP is gross. Overdone, emotionally fake, elements don't match the music...
I think Lambiels program is one of the best. I love, love his straightline footwork. :clap: :clap:

I'm glad you brought up Lysacek's program as far as following the music. I just don't get it. I thought maybe I was the only one who thought it was very strange. I didn't see any passion but frantic.

Dee
 
About Stephan - I'm shocked to say I agree - I was watching his LP - which I love, and I was like, wow, he stops and rests a lot - no Buttle like continuous movement of the feet - and I was wondering if he emptied the LP a bit at the final or if it was always like that and I just didn't notice until now. I still love him and think this program is joyful to watch and creative. THis was not Taka's best in the LP - he seemed like he had to really concentrate and was wiped at the end - but I think this is a good program for him and there is still room for more points, which will make a world's show down interesting, imo.
Good post. You made me aware of the program. I was thinking it was not quite the same as last year's, There was a bit too much stopping and posing as was the case with Plushenko all those years. I think Lambiel was concentrating on his technical entirely too much and it gave off the cautionary approach.

Plushenko could get away with that and get higher scores on his spins than Lambiel (yes, he did!) but I don't think Lambiel can get away with it. As they say in show biz, Plushy knew how to sell it to the audience. Hope Lambiel stops the stopping.

Joe
 
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Dance -- I liked Belbin/Agosto's FD better than the Russians', but I'm just a very casual ice dance watcher, so what do I know...

Men -- Daisuke was unlucky to skate right after Lambiel, because Lambiel's skate was so theatrical and well-executed. In comparison, Daisuke's program had much less "shine" to it, although it was skated extremely well. It just wasn't attention-grabbing/exciting like his SP. He put out a beautiful quad and only doubled a jump. I kinda feel like he ught to have won, because after all this is a sport, and athletically he's just that little bit better. Again, just MHO...


Ladies -- Mao's skate was phenomenal, it flowed from the beginning to the end. She really deserves better PCS, because she has the best basic skating skills as well as musicality and dancer's posture. The only thing she's a little weak in is her introversion/detachment from the audience. She does smile a little bit, but she doesn't quite relate to the audience Yu-na does, or even Carolina Kostner. But this should not take away from her amazing skating and dancing skills -- not to mention the incredibly difficult jumps and the great spins and spirals. I actually feel like the jump she needs to work the most on is her 3F, because she hardly gets any height (though she gets a lot of distance) on it and it's easy for her to double-foot it under pressure, and throw her off for the second jump -- right now, she uses the 3F in both the 3F/3T and 3F/3R combos, and in both I felt like the slightly shaky landing of the 3F made the second jump harder for her. The new 3T looks pretty good, much better than at the last WC.

Yu-na's jumps are great, especially 3F and 3Lz. She gets so much height on them. But I can't get into her LP program this year at all. Aside from being amazed by her good jumps, the rest of it doesn't grab me much at all. The music is not especially easy to listen to (in terms of harmonic structure), nor especially exciting (building like Lambiel's), and her poor posture really detracts from the performance aspect. Why can't she just keep her back up, point her toes, turn out her knees? I feel like she goes from pose to pose a little bit, and that worked well last year for the Tango of Roxanne SP, because the music hit periodic highs and went well with this kind of skating. The other quality Yu-na has naturally is a sense of lyricaity that plays to the tenderness of the audience, and that was demonstrated splendidly in her Lark Ascending LP last season. But Miss Saigon neither had these syncopated strong beats, nor the lyrical soft parts that touch the audience's heart; in short, it didn't take advantage of Yu-na's strengths, and instead emphasized her weaknesses (bad posture, rough transitions -- all these are in relative terms of course, not compared to the average skater, or even the average elite skater, but the best skaters, and the strengths she has in other areas). I really feel like Mao Asada ought to have received higher PCS's, at least what she got at the last WC, probably a little higher, since the choreography (skating went better with the music) and performance (her posture/positions have improved) were better in this case, while Yu-na's PCS should not be quite as high as they were. Mao made some grievous errors in the SP, so I won't argue that she definitely should've won the GPF. But at least in the LP, she should've won by a more significant margin, by at least 4 or 5 points. But... again, I've never really understood the PCS system -- I really wish the CoP would break down the PCS like they do the TES, so the skaters as well as the audience can understand why they get the scores that they do!

Caroline -- she's so cute and so sweet! :love: She is so amazingly talented. I feel like in a lot of ways she and Johnny are quite similar (in terms of skating :laugh:). They are both naturally gifted with an innate sense of musicality, grace, and beauty. And they give off a vague sense of fragility, which can appeal to the audience somehow. She really needs to skate faster though, and jump higher (how she gets around those triples is quite remarkable), and open herself up a little more to the audience. Some of this can be addressed by "better" choices of music, which can motivate her to skate in a more active way, the rest will come from growing bigger, stronger, and long-term strengthening and cardiovascular exercises. Her coach said in a recent interview that their top priority now is to get her to skate faster, and that they feel there's more room for her to improve in the PCS than the TES for now. I'm glad that her coach is so wise! It's interesting that Chen Lu, when she was at Caroline's age, was an incredible little jumping bean, and not a precocious artist/dancer. So I think it must have a lot to do with natural inclinations and early influences (Caroline started learning ballet and piano before skating, and continued for years).

I found it interesting that ESPN ran a little fluff on Caroline, and asking who does she remind you of (in terms of her tender age and success): and they went from Michelle, to Sasha, to Caroline (skipping Tara, Sarah, and Kimmie, interestingly, despite their own precocious success). This little girl has a lot to live up to! Then in the LP, Paul remarked a couple of times whether Caroline could learn a 3A in the near future. Caroline's 2A right now is a lot better than before (apparently from 8-11, she would sometimes under-rotate the 2A, and now it looks easily landed). It's not a particularly high 2A compared to other skaters. But then she manages to get a 3F-3T fully rotated even though they are also very low jumps. So you never know!

I still feel, though, that her top priority in terms of jumps should be to fix that 3Lz instead of getting a 3A. Less risk of injury, and possibly more gain -- she's losing a lot through the edge deduction.
 
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Definitely not a disappointment

Seemed from the pbp and the YouTube clips and the general yearning for the "good ole days" that maybe I'd be disappointed... but I most surely was NOT. There were amazing programs there and fabulous talents in all disciplines. Figure skating is still the 2nd best sport on earth (dressage being the 1st best).
Linny
 
Dance -- I liked Belbin/Agosto's FD better than the Russians', but I'm just a very casual ice dance watcher, so what do I know...

Men -- Daisuke was unlucky to skate right after Lambiel, because Lambiel's skate was so theatrical and well-executed. In comparison, Daisuke's program had much less "shine" to it, although it was skated extremely well. It just wasn't attention-grabbing/exciting like his SP. He put out a beautiful quad and only doubled a jump. I kinda feel like he ught to have won, because after all this is a sport, and athletically he's just that little bit better. Again, just MHO...


Ladies -- Mao's skate was phenomenal, it flowed from the beginning to the end. She really deserves better PCS, because she has the best basic skating skills as well as musicality and dancer's posture. The only thing she's a little weak in is her introversion/detachment from the audience. She does smile a little bit, but she doesn't quite relate to the audience Yu-na does, or even Carolina Kostner. But this should not take away from her amazing skating and dancing skills -- not to mention the incredibly difficult jumps and the great spins and spirals. I actually feel like the jump she needs to work the most on is her 3F, because she hardly gets any height (though she gets a lot of distance) on it and it's easy for her to double-foot it under pressure, and throw her off for the second jump -- right now, she uses the 3F in both the 3F/3T and 3F/3R combos, and in both I felt like the slightly shaky landing of the 3F made the second jump harder for her. The new 3T looks pretty good, much better than at the last WC.

Yu-na's jumps are great, especially 3F and 3Lz. She gets so much height on them. But I can't get into her LP program this year at all. Aside from being amazed by her good jumps, the rest of it doesn't grab me much at all. The music is not especially easy to listen to (in terms of harmonic structure), nor especially exciting (building like Lambiel's), and her poor posture really detracts from the performance aspect. Why can't she just keep her back up, point her toes, turn out her knees? I feel like she goes from pose to pose a little bit, and that worked well last year for the Tango of Roxanne SP, because the music hit periodic highs and went well with this kind of skating. The other quality Yu-na has naturally is a sense of lyricaity that plays to the tenderness of the audience, and that was demonstrated splendidly in her Lark Ascending LP last season. But Miss Saigon neither had these syncopated strong beats, nor the lyrical soft parts that touch the audience's heart; in short, it didn't take advantage of Yu-na's strengths, and instead emphasized her weaknesses (bad posture, rough transitions -- all these are in relative terms of course, not compared to the average skater, or even the average elite skater, but the best skaters, and the strengths she has in other areas). I really feel like Mao Asada ought to have received higher PCS's, at least what she got at the last WC, probably a little higher, since the choreography (skating went better with the music) and performance (her posture/positions have improved) were better in this case, while Yu-na's PCS should not be quite as high as they were. Mao made some grievous errors in the SP, so I won't argue that she definitely should've won the GPF. But at least in the LP, she should've won by a more significant margin, by at least 4 or 5 points. But... again, I've never really understood the PCS system -- I really wish the CoP would break down the PCS like they do the TES, so the skaters as well as the audience can understand why they get the scores that they do!

Caroline -- she's so cute and so sweet! :love: She is so amazingly talented. I feel like in a lot of ways she and Johnny are quite similar (in terms of skating :laugh:). They are both naturally gifted with an innate sense of musicality, grace, and beauty. And they give off a vague sense of fragility, which can appeal to the audience somehow. She really needs to skate faster though, and jump higher (how she gets around those triples is quite remarkable), and open herself up a little more to the audience. Some of this can be addressed by "better" choices of music, which can motivate her to skate in a more active way, the rest will come from growing bigger, stronger, and long-term strengthening and cardiovascular exercises. Her coach said in a recent interview that their top priority now is to get her to skate faster, and that they feel there's more room for her to improve in the PCS than the TES for now. I'm glad that her coach is so wise! It's interesting that Chen Lu, when she was at Caroline's age, was an incredible little jumping bean, and not a precocious artist/dancer. So I think it must have a lot to do with natural inclinations and early influences (Caroline started learning ballet and piano before skating, and continued for years).

I found it interesting that ESPN ran a little fluff on Caroline, and asking who does she remind you of (in terms of her tender age and success): and they went from Michelle, to Sasha, to Caroline (skipping Tara, Sarah, and Kimmie, interestingly, despite their own precocious success). This little girl has a lot to live up to! Then in the LP, Paul remarked a couple of times whether Caroline could learn a 3A in the near future. Caroline's 2A right now is a lot better than before (apparently from 8-11, she would sometimes under-rotate the 2A, and now it looks easily landed). It's not a particularly high 2A compared to other skaters. But then she manages to get a 3F-3T fully rotated even though they are also very low jumps. So you never know!

I still feel, though, that her top priority in terms of jumps should be to fix that 3Lz instead of getting a 3A. Less risk of injury, and possibly more gain -- she's losing a lot through the edge deduction.

I also thought Mao was phenomenal, and hats off to her comeback spirit after the SP disaster. She had amazing transition, and flow. I also agree with her "audience connection" issue, as for me it was more admiration then connection. With a bit more emotional presence on the ice(not off the ice :)), she could be unbeatable.

Yu-na on the other hand, although, not her best performance of the season, was passionate in her skating. She may not have been best in all aspects of skating, her jumps were as amazing as ever("secure", as commented), and presentation-wise, I thought she came alive in the latter part of her program which resounded more dramatic. Yu-na despite her youth, consistently has more mature presence on the ice, and she uses her facial expression very well(an example below ;)), as Brian calls her a great actress on ice for her age. Perhaps this is an attribute that does not go unnoticed to the audience as well as the judges, rightfully so as a matter of presentation.

For the other ladies, Caroline Zhang is very impressive for her age, next Mao ?
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/9494/yunafrownwz2.gif
 
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I agree with the above observations on Mao's LP.
A great comeback, but I felt that she was so focused on landing her jumps that the inbetweens were not performed as well as she is capable of doing them.
Also the program itself was so stacked with jumps one after another that she almost ran out of time and it was over before I could get into it.

As for Yuna, as a non-expert on skating techniques, I don't quite see what posture problem she has right now, but as enough people keep mentioning it, there must be some improvement she could still make although I do feel that she's definitely improved it compared to her junior days.

Her LP, I thought was lovely.
Her jumps are so secure and strong that IMO she is the only current skater who is capable of making them natural parts of her programs without any interruptions of one of those 'mule kick,' 'red-flag-raising-neon-sign-flashing telegraphing,' or 'e and > questioning.'
For that alone, I think she deserves high PCS.
 
I read somewhere tha international judges were studying Yu-na's jumps when she was still a Junior..:bow:

It's nice to see that Yu-na is getting credit for how good her jumps are and Mao is getting credit for how beautifully she skates. I think that people can get so hung up on what people are jumping, that they aren't looking at how people Jump. Yu-na may never have that triple axel, but her jumps are of an amazing quality...Really Yu-na's the best technical jumper in ladies figure skating...And apparently has been for several years now LOL!
 
I think many folks are exaggerating the effect of this alleged "mule kick" by Caroline. Frankly, I don't find it as horrendous or distracting as others would make it out. For instance, despite the brilliant jumping, I consider Yu-Na's ugly layback position and mediocre spirals to be more offensive.
 
Takahashi got winded towards the end and definitely lacked the spark we have seen from him in the past. That being said, Lambiel's presentation should not have been enough to make up for how much more solid technically Takahashi was. Lambiel was given a gift. Also espn made Lysacek to be the greatest skater ever (well, maybe I'm exagerrating slightly here), while I was cringing and averting my eyes so his arm flailing and upper body girations wouldn't smack me in the face. I also found espn to make Takahashi's performance to be the most boring 4 minutes this season. Come on, his performance was still far from being dull and uninteresting. I believe he will be hugely improved come Worlds. I just hope Lambiel will be able to deliver two brilliant performances come Worlds as well, and kick some Joubert butt.

Everyone is entitled to a partial or complete meltdown (take my Fall semester for example), and this is just what happened to Meissner. She was never good in this first half of the season anyway and I think she was lucky to make the final. She will be a lot stronger at Nationals and Worlds and I'm sure she's hungry to show the World that she still isn't washed up at the incredibly old age of 18.

Sarah Meier will win the World Championships, so no, Mao and Yuna are really not miles ahead of anyone :biggrin:
 
I didn't understand why Lambiel won the LP over Daisuke despite more mistakes.

Neither do I... My guess is that it was because the competition was held in Europe and even more because Lambiel is a two-time World champion. Anyway, they both are among my favourite skaters, LOL.
 
I agree about Mao's LP at GPF. I thought Mao's performance at Skate Canada was the best out of all three this season so far in terms of "presentation skills". Although technically easier than her GPF LP, I thought Mao skated with more "detail" and her trademark light, fluffy, fluidity at Skate Canada.

As for Yu-na, I didn't like her program either at first but it kind of grew on me. I like her GPF LP performance out of all three so far even though she fell on her 3L. I thought she skated with more passion and drama at GPF.

About Lambiel, I can't put a finger on why I'm not crazy about him. I think it comes down to personal taste. Unless you are artistically original and perfect like Yagudin or charismatic like Elvis Stoijko, I find taller skaters like Lysacek and Weir more easy on the eyes as long as they don't do gymnastics on ice. Just like back in the 80's, I wasn't too impressed with Scott Hamilton or even Brian Orser as I was with Robin Cousins. Lysacek and Weir may not be where Yu-na and Mao is right now in terms of their place in the world and their skating skills but I can see them pushing each other until 2010. They are 3rd and 4th at GPF so I think it's quite possible for either of them to win gold in 2010.

My favorite skater of all time is Alexei Yagudin. I don't think anyone, not even Yu-na or Mao, has or had talent in all areas like he did at his best.
 
Did they really say that? Negative comments throughout or something?

It's just that they were going absolutely crazy over Lysacek, and were (deservedly) raving over Lambiel's artistry, but made very few positive comments about Takahashi, and pointed out the flaws and him not selling the program enough. He landed a clean quad and 3A for Pete's sake! And I think his spins are among the most solid in the men's field. They are mostly very centered, fairly fast and even has some innovation with his man-layback spin. If I listened to just the commentary alone for all three skaters I would have had the impression that Evan and Stephane's performances were light years ahead of Daisuke's. Oh well, maybe it\s just me nitpicking on silliness.
 
It's just that they were going absolutely crazy over Lysacek, and were (deservedly) raving over Lambiel's artistry, but made very few positive comments about Takahashi, and pointed out the flaws and him not selling the program enough. He landed a clean quad and 3A for Pete's sake! And I think his spins are among the most solid in the men's field. They are mostly very centered, fairly fast and even has some innovation with his man-layback spin. If I listened to just the commentary alone for all three skaters I would have had the impression that Evan and Stephane's performances were light years ahead of Daisuke's. Oh well, maybe it\s just me nitpicking on silliness.

I watched the Webtv broadcast in Russian(I don't speak the language, but I don't have a television set, so no other option). Tarasova was commenting, and some of her comments are translated on play-by-plays--ultimately, she was saying Daisuke should have won at the end. But it seemed to be based off the idea that the quad and 3A aren't worth enough, which I disagree with(not to mention, with COP, making the base value higher wouldn't change the results, provided the mistake deductions were the same. The tech numbers would just be higher, not further apart, between competitors who tried the same jumps.

In a way I'm glad I didn't watch the espn broadcast, because I can't tune out a language I understand...and I was curious as to why people who had already seen the performances on youtube would have different opinions after watching espn--you can see a little better on tv, yes, but none of the youtube videos had English-language commentary, either.

For Espn, they want to do their best to make the result make sense(and it is a fair result, IMO), but maybe they exaggerated some things? And for Tarasova--unfortunately Russia changed their domestic scoring system(now there are extra points for the most difficult jumps) and it seemed she was placing too much emphasis on jumps alone.
 
You may be in the minority, but you're not alone. To me, it's the same zebra to different pieces of music, over and over again. Plus it always contains mistakes. Plus, there is this certain body part which seems to get bigger and bigger. Brr.....
IMO.

Did you notice the LONG rest period in the middle of the program? I timed it at 15 seconds where he's not skating, just waving his arms about and looking soulful. Lambiel's transition score should be cut down because of it.

Lambiel beat Takahashi because Stephane didn't get a deduction for the fall on the quad. Sorry, but when a skater has the full weight of his body on his two hands (not his feet), that is a FALL. I have seen other skaters get charged with a fall for less.
 
ultimately, she was saying Daisuke should have won at the end.

Yes, she was saying that. She also said she didn't understand how on Earth Daisuke could place 2nd. She called his skating 'the one of a true champ'.

But of course Tarasova is biased. And so are we. And so are the judges.
 
and I was curious as to why people who had already seen the performances on youtube would have different opinions after watching espn--you can see a little better on tv, yes, but none of the youtube videos had English-language commentary, either.

Partly the English commentary, partly the greater resolution (you can see better the skaters' facial expressions and their hand gestures), but partly I think the TV broadcasts also put the performances more in context with each other. For instance, Lambiel's performance ability really stood out among his peers. In the ladies, Caroline was noticeably slower and less powerful than the others, though her performance also seemed more nuanced and musical -- in the LP, when she began her program, I felt a wave of calm wash over me, it was like encountering an unexpected calm oasis in the midst of an intense storm. She just had such calm and poise to her skating.

The comparative aspect may not have been as obvious when you watch the youtube videos in isolation.

On the whole, I felt like ESPN's packaging was pretty good. The commentary on the skaters were fairly knowledgeable and detailed (they touch upon many of the points debated on these forums though I doubt the commentators peruse the forum in great detail), and they tried to give the audience some hints as to why the results came out to be the way they were, without delving too deeply into the technical details in a rather compact broadcast.
 
On the whole, I felt like ESPN's packaging was pretty good. The commentary on the skaters were fairly knowledgeable and detailed (they touch upon many of the points debated on these forums though I doubt the commentators peruse the forum in great detail), and they tried to give the audience some hints as to why the results came out to be the way they were, without delving too deeply into the technical details in a rather compact broadcast.

I wonder why ESPN does not touch upon the scoring aspects(as I find in Japanese/Korean broadcasts, for example), breakdown of points, GOEs, comparison of these aspects between the skaters, etc. This would help many non-expert skating fans(like myself) to appreciate the sport better. The puzzled and the perplexed many find it more fulfilling viewing experience.

On the other hand, its just as well, like a good movie ending without a clear answer.
 
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I think many folks are exaggerating the effect of this alleged "mule kick" by Caroline. Frankly, I don't find it as horrendous or distracting as others would make it out. For instance, despite the brilliant jumping, I consider Yu-Na's ugly layback position and mediocre spirals to be more offensive.

Exactly how I feel. I hardly noticed the mule kick at all this season. It was definitely more pronounced last season. I actually think Caroline's jumps are improving. The solo 3F she did in the warmup prior to the performance was a beauty. I don't think she'll ever be getting a 3A, though, which is fine - I don't think she needs it. :p

And ditto on Yu-Na's ugly free leg position in her layback. Michelle used to do it, too, before she eventually changed it to a dropped leg layback which was much more aesthetically pleasing. Her layback was the only distracting thing about her celebrated 1998 Rach SP. Doesn't look like Yu-Na's about to change her's, though, which is a shame.
 
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