What Skaters will skate which events In the Olympic Team Event Competition?

[Colonel Green]

Yes they can.

Er, no, they can't. They can offer skaters the choice to compete, they can't make them, and trying to play dictator in the way you seem to be envisioning would be horrendous for the organization's reputation and relationships with its athletes (who are amateur competitions largely paying for their own training) and their coaches.

 

[Amei]

Er, no, they can't. They can offer skaters the choice to compete, they can't make them, and trying to play dictator in the way you seem to be envisioning would be horrendous for the organization's reputation and relationships with its athletes (who are amateur competitions largely paying for their own training) and their coaches.

The Fed has to make 2 athletes or teams (for Pairs/ID) skate both the SP/FS or RD/FD in the Team competition as they can only switch 2 skaters/teams out between the 4 disciplines going from the SP/RD to the FS/FD. So for example: if the US Fed says that Chock/Bates needs to skate both the RD/FD because the Fed needs to swap out the ladies and men then I think that Chock/Bates only options would be a) skate both programs for the team event or b) not compete in the team event. Would a team/skater really push back and refuse to compete and risk being dumped by their Fed for politicking by not competing in the team event? Additionally, would a skater/team from a big fed like the US or Russia give up competing in the team event where they pretty much have a guaranteed Olympic team medal, and its just matter really of what color?

 

[Blades of Passion]

Er, no, they can't.

Constantly repeating something wrong only shows how little you know. They can and have constantly done so, since ever. Skaters have no power whatsoever within the ISU rules to decide who will skate the Olympic team event. That is entirely up to the federation. A skater can only choose to withdraw after being assigned if they don't want to skate...and thus screw over their whole team. Although it would be far more reasonable to simply compete with watered down tech content if they want to take it easy. Or, a skater can in fact go sit on the ice and not do anything, and still receive the minimum segment score for their team in the event.

If Nathan Chen actually cared about the team, then he would want to skate both segments anyway. The math is very clear that he is needed. Not to mention, he is in a position to make history by becoming the first singles skater to win two Golds at the same Olympics. Not participating hurts his own medal chance, on top of hurting the chance of everyone else. So, both selfish and self-harming.

 

[invisiblespiral]

Men: split (Chen chooses what he wants and the other program goes to whoever scores higher between Brown and Zhou). If Chen doesn't do it, Brown gets the SP and Zhou the FS.
Ladies: Liu
Pairs: whoever wins nationals does both
Dance: H/D do the RD and C/B do the FD

Edit: I am now irrationally terrified that I have cursed the men's event at US Nationals by assuming that Chen/Brown/Zhou is the Olympic team and that 2/3 of them will now bomb so badly that only one can be saved by body of work.

Well, the thing in my edit didn't happen.

An after-nationals update:
Men: I think it's most likely that Chen does the SP and Brown does the FS?
Ladies: Bell unless Liu wants to do it and is adequately recovered from COVID.
Pairs: C-G/L do both.
Dance: C/B do the RD and H/D do the FD.

Also, I feel like Canada's best strategy involves splitting none of the events? (unless J/R are adequately recovered from COVID)

 

[Blades of Passion]

Also, I feel like Canada's best strategy involves splitting none of the events?

Possibly, although M-T/M haven't skated a clean SP all season. I think J/R will be given that event, since it's the less endurance-testing segment and they seemingly have the higher scoring potential.

 

[jenaj]

The federation has no power to make skaters skate one or both events. What are they going to do if they refuse? Kick them off the team (also known as cutting off your nose to spite your face)? And why would the USFSA want to force a skater to skate if he didn't want to? Especially if it's Nathan Chen. Nathan will decide if he is skating one or both events. Count on it.

 

[Fluture]

If Nathan Chen actually cared about the team, then he would want to skate both segments anyway.

Haven‘t been following this thread in detail but your constant harping on the poor guy stands out. Isn‘t he dealing with a (hip) injury, too? Then tell me, WHY on earth he’d risk his injury worsening and having to peak four times under immense Olympic pressure? It would be a pretty bad strategy and I think it‘s more than silly to suggest that an individual OGM favorite "doesn‘t care about the team" just because they choose to skate only one event.

 

[comet23]

The US team event athlete selection procedure is detailed here in section F: https://www.usfigureskating.org/sit... Olympic Games Selection Procedures FINAL.pdf

It says that ahead of nationals, all competitors submitted forms stating their interest and preference regarding participation in the team event.

But there's a disclaimer:

U.S. Figure Skating reserves the authority to enter an athlete to compete in the Team Event despite the information provided in the Team Event Preference Form.

A week before Nationals, the International Committee met to rank all the skaters based on the results of 2021 Worlds, 2021 GP events, 2021 Challenger events, and 2021 Nationals.

The top-ranked athlete/team determined by the IC Discipline Subcommittee will have the option to compete in both segments or one segment of the Team Event based on their Team Event Preference Form.

The highest-ranked disciplines will have the first option of substitution in the Team Event if the U.S. qualifies for the free skate.

[If there are] Any changes in the athlete’s/team’s participation in the Team Event due to injury, illness or the athlete’s desire not to participate, the replacement athlete/team will be determined by the approved ranked order.

So, it sounds like they will go solely by the numbers and priority group rankings, rather than any strategizing about say, Jason being more reliable than Vincent. That also would mean that if Alysa wants it, the team event will be hers. It also seems like even though they reserve the right to go against skaters' stated preferences, that is more about the lower ranked skater not having a say in what program they perform, than say, Nathan being forced to do both segments. It's mentioned multiple times that "the athlete has the option to decline participation in the Team Event."

This part is also interesting:

In addition, with the U.S. Olympic Team having to declare the composition of the free skate or free dance athletes/teams immediately (latest about 10 minutes) after the conclusion of the short program/rhythm dance, any last-minute decisions will be made by the Team staff (Team Managers and Team Leader) should any unforeseen circumstances arise. Hence, there will be no announcement of the athlete performing in the free skate until after the conclusion of the short programs/rhythm dances to ensure that all athletes are healthy and/or there are no last-minute substitutions or changes that must be made by the Team staff to the original slate approved by the IC discipline Subcommittees."

So it sounds like we won't get official word on who is skating the free until after the first portion of the competition is over, the points are in, and all the countries know what they have to do to get on the podium.

 

[Blades of Passion]

The federation has no power to make skaters skate one or both events. What are they going to do if they refuse? Kick them off the team (also known as cutting off your nose to spite your face)? And why would the USFSA want to force a skater to skate if he didn't want to?

For the last time, the federations have ALL the power, in terms of the rules. They decide the entries to any competition. No athlete is allowed to compete anywhere without federation approval and they can be withdraw from a competition at any time if the federation wants.

USFS shouldn't have to "force" anyone. The skaters are on the team to do a job. Their job is competing, in the way that best serves the team.

Regardless, it's similar to a Parent-Child relationship. Just because a child doesn't want to clean their dishes, that doesn't mean they should be allowed to make the house worse for everyone. There are many things children (or people of any age) don't want to do, but should do, for their own best interest and the good of the community.

If the skater refuses to compete after being declared the entry, then they screw the team over. Sure, they can make that decision if they want, but the blowback would be immense, and they would be throwing an Olympic medal of their own away. Who would do that?

WHY on earth he’d risk his injury worsening and having to peak four times under immense Olympic pressure?

He has no kind of medical issue that would be worsened by doing the Team LP and he doesn't have to peak four times. Again, he can skate watered down content in the Team LP and still win the segment, because of how favored he is by the judges. There is no greater risk of injury than doing a normal practice program. Which he will be doing every day at the Olympics. So on the day of the Team LP, he can do his practice session in the competition rink instead of the practice rink. It's really that simple.

Also, if doing the Team LP really is an impediment to a skater's individual event, then inherently whoever is placed there is being screwed over. In which case, USA is only hurting their medal chances even further by placing Vincent in that segment. The goal of a federation should be obtaining the maximum medal haul. USA could potentially win Gold in the Team, and Gold + Silver in the Men's event. If doing the Team LP is sooo difficult, then Vincent's individual medal chance is now being hurt in ADDITION to the Team Gold chance. Whereas I would argue Nathan is SO far ahead of the field (in terms of the judging, at least) that he is extremely likely to win the individual event anyway, even if faced with the "imposition" of needing to do the Team LP. Although it's not actually an imposition.

For a major reality check - Male gymnasts compete 6 events in a single day at the Olympics, and they do this in a qualifying round, and then a team round, and then an individual round, all of these competitions taking place over the span of 4 days, and then after all that they also have event final rounds a few days later! It's absolutely laughable to suggest figure skaters can not successfully compete 2 SP's and 2 LP's over the course of a week.

 

[bekalc]

I think USFSA cares just as much about resting Nathan as he does

 

[moonkat]

For the last time, the federations have ALL the power, in terms of the rules. They decide the entries to any competition. No athlete is allowed to compete anywhere without federation approval and they can be withdraw from a competition at any time if the federation wants.

USFS shouldn't have to "force" anyone. The skaters are on the team to do a job. Their job is competing, in the way that best serves the team.

Regardless, it's similar to a Parent-Child relationship. Just because a child doesn't want to clean their dishes, that doesn't mean they should be allowed to make the house worse for everyone. There are many things children (or people of any age) don't want to do, but should do, for their own best interest and the good of the community.

If the skater refuses to compete after being declared the entry, then they screw the team over. Sure, they can make that decision if they want, but the blowback would be immense, and they would be throwing an Olympic medal of their own away. Who would do that?



He has no kind of medical issue that would be worsened by doing the Team LP and he doesn't have to peak four times. Again, he can skate watered down content in the Team LP and still win the segment, because of how favored he is by the judges. There is no greater risk of injury than doing a normal practice program. Which he will be doing every day at the Olympics. So on the day of the Team LP, he can do his practice session in the competition rink instead of the practice rink. It's really that simple.

Also, if doing the Team LP really is an impediment to a skater's individual event, then inherently whoever is placed there is being screwed over. In which case, USA is only hurting their medal chances even further by placing Vincent in that segment. The goal of a federation should be obtaining the maximum medal haul. USA could potentially win Gold in the Team, and Gold + Silver in the Men's event. If doing the Team LP is sooo difficult, then Vincent's individual medal chance is now being hurt in ADDITION to the Team Gold chance. Whereas I would argue Nathan is SO far ahead of the field (in terms of the judging, at least) that he is extremely likely to win the individual event anyway, even if faced with the "imposition" of needing to do the Team LP. Although it's not actually an imposition.

For a major reality check - Male gymnasts compete 6 events in a single day at the Olympics, and they do this in a qualifying round, and then a team round, and then an individual round, all of these competitions taking place over the span of 4 days, and then after all that they also have event final rounds a few days later! It's absolutely laughable to suggest figure skaters can not successfully compete 2 SP's and 2 LP's over the course of a week.

The skaters will be doing what it required of them. There's no point in tiring out the USA's best chance at single Olympic Gold. I don't see them not chosing different skaters for the Team Event.

I don't like Parent-Child comparision between a person, especially adult, and organization or coach. Our parents are our parents.

Nathan's best interest is to be in a good condition for the single skating, so he can be Olympic Champion before he retires. He's not invincible. It is in Vincent's interest to get another medal.

If your competitors are also doing 6 events everyday then it's a level playing field. If many competitor are not doing sp and lp in team event, it is not the same. The US have the advantage of more than one skater at the Olympics, and hopefully the fed takes advantage of it.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I think USFSA cares just as much about resting Nathan as he does

They already get to rest. There are full day breaks on the schedule and they never have to compete a LP the day after a SP.

Unlike at every Grand Prix event, which the skaters have constantly been fully capable of competing at, where everyone already has to skate the SP+LP on back-to-back days!

I don't like Parent-Child comparision

Then use Coach/Teacher and Student. It's the same thing. People on their own don't automatically know what is best for themselves and their teams. They need perspective and guidance. Everyone's first instinct is that they don't want to "do the dishes", but these things must be done, and in the end it's better.

If many competitor are not doing sp and lp in team event, it is not the same.

There are no other competitors on Nathan's level, in the judging results. He is that far ahead of the field. He can fall in the LP and is still going to win the Olympics even if others skate perfectly (seeing as Hanyu is inherently not going to skate perfectly, with the jump layout he's decided to go with).

 

[bekalc]

They already get to rest. There are full day breaks on the schedule and they never have to compete a LP the day after a SP.

Unlike at every Grand Prix event, which the skaters have constantly been fully capable of competing at, where everyone already has to skate the SP+LP on back-to-back days!



Then use Coach/Teacher and Student. It's the same thing. People on their own don't automatically know what is best for themselves and their teams. They need perspective and guidance. Everyone's first instinct is that they don't want to "do the dishes", but these things must be done, and in the end it's better.



There are no other competitors on Nathan's level, in the judging results. He is that far ahead of the field. He can fall in the LP and is still going to win the Olympics even if others skate perfectly (seeing as Hanyu is inherently not going to skate perfectly, with the jump layout he's decided to go with).

I am not sure Nathan will go perfect and you never know lightening could strike and Kolyoda could skate perfectly.

 

[moonkat]

Then use Coach/Teacher and Student. It's the same thing. People on their own don't automatically know what is best for themselves and their teams. They need perspective and guidance. Everyone's first instinct is that they don't want to "do the dishes", but these things must be done, and in the end it's better.

It's not the same. Parents raised you. Coaches have many students. What is good for the team, is not necessarily good for the individual.

 

[jenaj]

The USFSA is not going to force Nathan or any other skater to do something they don't want to do. Again, how would they enforce it if they tried to and why would they? I look forward to seeing Nathan skate his segment and Vincent or Jason skating his at the Team event, because that is what is going to happen.

 

[Blades of Passion]

The USFSA is not going to force Nathan or any other skater to do something they don't want to do. Again, how would they enforce it if they tried to and why would they?

What do you mean how would they enforce it? The skater will be entered into the competition. If they don't show up, and therefore get 0 points for their segment, then they are going to lose their own medal, in addition to facing scorn from the entire world, including their team, who they would have betrayed. Who would do that? If the entire theory is that skating 1 extra program is supposedly too taxing for their individual event, it would only be more taxing to skip it and then be in the middle of a giant shitstorm, and constantly filled with guilt knowing you stupidly ruined the entire team event by not trying at all, when you had no real reason not to.

And obviously USFS shouldn't just "force" him with no explanation. They should very clearly explain to Nathan that he is needed in both segments for a Gold medal. If knows that, then he needs to do his JOB. As that is the entire reason he was selected to be part of the Olympics. An honor and privilege that he needs to take seriously.

I am not sure Nathan will go perfect and you never know lightening could strike and Kolyoda could skate perfectly.

Again, Nathan doesn't need to skate perfect. He is assured victory at these Olympics with a fall. He can fall twice and still be a likely winner. Kolyada doing a perfect 3-quad LP would still lose the competition to Nathan's 5-quad-with-two-falls program. That is just the state of the sport.

 

[jenaj]

What do you mean how would they enforce it? The skater will be entered into the competition. If they don't show up, and therefore get 0 points for their segment, then they are going to lose their own medal, in addition to facing scorn from the entire world, including their team, who they would have betrayed. Who would do that? If the entire theory is that skating 1 extra program is supposedly too taxing for their individual event, it would only be more taxing to skip it and then be in the middle of a giant shitstorm, and constantly filled with guilt knowing you stupidly ruined the entire team event by not trying at all, when you had no real reason not to.

And obviously USFS shouldn't just "force" him with no explanation. They should very clearly explain to Nathan that he is needed in both segments for a Gold medal. If knows that, then he needs to do his JOB. As that is the entire reason he was selected to be part of the Olympics. An honor and privilege that he needs to take seriously.



Again, Nathan doesn't need to skate perfect. He is assured victory at these Olympics with a fall. He can fall twice and still be a likely winner. Kolyada doing a perfect 3-quad LP would still lose the competition to Nathan's 5-quad-with-two-falls program. That is just the state of the sport.

The rules
https://www.usfigureskating.org/sites/default/files/media-files/2022 Winter Olympic Games Selection Procedures FINAL.pdf
make it clear that the US committee would only require a skater to skate if there weren't enough wanting to participate to fill all of the team slots, and there are limits on not following the skaters' preferences.

"However, in order to fill the field of the Team Event, and because there will be
limitations on participation (only those athletes nominated to the 2022 U.S. Olympic
Team in their discipline will be eligible) and substitution (only up to two disciplines
can be substituted), U.S. Figure Skating reserves the authority to enter an athlete to
compete in the Team Event despite the information provided in the Team Event
Preference Form."

The skaters are ranked and the first ranked skaters get to choose which segments they want to skate in. So it will be Nathan's choice alone that determines whether he skates both segments.

 

[Blades of Passion]

The rules absolutely do not say any of the skaters get to choose.

The rules say that USFS has the power to do whatever they want. No flowery language about athletes being able to make their preference known changes that. The athlete preference is completely irrelevant, if it ultimately runs counter to what USFS really wants. It's a token gesture. This is what is actually said in the rules:

U.S. Figure Skating reserves the authority to enter an athlete to compete in the Team Event despite the information provided in the Team Event Preference Form. The strategy for selecting athletes to compete in the Team Event will be based on maximizing the potential for peak performances and placements in the Team Event.

 

[pearly]

If Nathan Chen actually cared about the team, then he would want to skate both segments anyway. The math is very clear that he is needed. Not to mention, he is in a position to make history by becoming the first singles skater to win two Golds at the same Olympics. Not participating hurts his own medal chance, on top of hurting the chance of everyone else. So, both selfish and self-harming.

You think the US has a chance to get team gold at this event? I thought Russia was a certain gold.

 

[BlackAxel]

You think the US has a chance to get team gold at this event? I thought Russia was a certain gold.

US has a good chance at gold if 1) S/K do not skate in the Team Event and 2) Kolyada doesn't skate both programs. Chances are even increased if Eteri suceeds in her master plan to include daughter, Diana, in the team event.