Can Ashley go to Worlds?

[Tinymavy15]

I was thinking this morning, what if the nationals podium was a repeat of last year's junior world's podium? Besides being unbealivably cool, think of what USFSA would do for the world team? Is Ashley Wagner old enough to go? If not, (or even if she is we still need 2 other ladies) will the remaining two be choosen on previous merit, or based on placement at nationals? like if kimmie is fourth and alissa 5th, will it be ashley,kimmie,alissa? or would they choose emily over alissa even if she places lower becasue of her better international record?

 

[Tonichelle]

AFAIK Ashley is age elligible... but I could be wrong.

 

[pista04]

Yeah, Ashley Wagner is age eligible, and the topic of "Will USFS choose a girl who didnt get a top 3 eligible spot for Worlds?" is the subject of a thread that's ongoing at the moment. =]

Personally, as I stated in the other thread, I dont believe USFS has the guts to send a girl who didnt earn the spot via nationals, because of the onslaught of criticism that would be sent their way immediatly.

 

[Wrlmy]

The ladies will have to earn their spots. They are no MK. If USFS chooses someone else over Alissa just because she's been inconsistent, I know I will be bitter for over a year At this point though, I believe Ashley has her place locked up more so than Kimmie or any other age eligible lady.

 

[Eddie Lee]

I was thinking this morning, what if the nationals podium was a repeat of last year's junior world's podium? Besides being unbealivably cool, think of what USFSA would do for the world team? Is Ashley Wagner old enough to go? If not, (or even if she is we still need 2 other ladies) will the remaining two be choosen on previous merit, or based on placement at nationals? like if kimmie is fourth and alissa 5th, will it be ashley,kimmie,alissa? or would they choose emily over alissa even if she places lower becasue of her better international record?

USFS is required to send only the gold medalist from each category, provided that person is age eligible. If she isn't age eligible, the USFS can name any age- eligible participating contestant(s) they wish to the World Team. To USFS's credit, they name the team as it places at Nationals. So....if the junior podium from last year is repeated at the Senior Level this year, and if the USFS follows its usual method of naming the team, Ashley (as bronze medalist) would be named along with the next two highest placements that are age-eligible.

For my money, it makes no sense to have a different age requirement for participation at a Senior Nationals (& GP event) than that required at World's or Olympics. The rule is supposed to protect the younger participants from injury in their attempts to perform the rigorous requirements of the Senior programs. But if they're performing them at GP & Nationals, why not at Worlds and Olympics?

 

[Bennett]

For my money, it makes no sense to have a different age requirement for participation at a Senior Nationals (& GP event) than that required at World's or Olympics. The rule is supposed to protect the younger participants from injury in their attempts to perform the rigorous requirements of the Senior programs. But if they're performing them at GP & Nationals, why not at Worlds and Olympics?

ITA. Besides, it's simply strange to see a skater who's been in senior throughout the season going back to junior at the end to conclude the season.

 

[merrybari]

ITA. Besides, it's simply strange to see a skater who's been in senior throughout the season going back to junior at the end to conclude the season.

Well said!!

 

[flying camel]

I think Ashley has earned the respect of the judges. They will be looking for her to continue to skate well at nationals. I think she can easily place top 3 by the LP. Her only short coming is that she does not seem to place well in the SP. So, Kimmie, Hughes, Mirai, Zhang, Bebe, Czisny and even Flatt could all be ahead of her after the SP. That is the only thing that could keep her off the podium. I hope she has worked on her program componets. She isn't scoring well there.

 

[Tinymavy15]

i have said it before and i will say it again that I think that the age rule is rediculios. USFSA creates al these rules saying that a girl cant be over 13 for juvenille, etc, and so at first they want the skaters young, then they say no, you can't go to worlds or the olympics which you have been dreaming about for years until 2 years later. the rule has not stopped Mao from praticing 3 axels or caroline from landing 3/3's. I hope sombody has the sense to do away with that rule very soon.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

i have said it before and i will say it again that I think that the age rule is rediculios. USFSA creates al these rules saying that a girl cant be over 13 for juvenille, etc, and so at first they want the skaters young, then they say no, you can't go to worlds or the olympics which you have been dreaming about for years until 2 years later. the rule has not stopped Mao from praticing 3 axels or caroline from landing 3/3's. I hope sombody has the sense to do away with that rule very soon.

When I was carrying on back in 2006 to let Mao go on to the Olys, most fans of the board thought a rule is a rule and she should not go. I disagreed then, and I agree with you now, However, I also go for the age rule to apply with all major competitions.

Joe

 

[Tonichelle]

i have said it before and i will say it again that I think that the age rule is rediculios. USFSA creates al these rules saying that a girl cant be over 13 for juvenille, etc, and so at first they want the skaters young, then they say no, you can't go to worlds or the olympics which you have been dreaming about for years until 2 years later. the rule has not stopped Mao from praticing 3 axels or caroline from landing 3/3's. I hope sombody has the sense to do away with that rule very soon.

I feel the USFSA should follow the ISU and just say 'nope, you're not Worlds/Oly age elligible, stay as a junior'

but had the rule existed when Kwan and Lipinski (well Tara was grandfathered out of that rule) were jumping through the ranks we might not have had Kwan for as long, and we might never have had Tara (with all of her injuries)


I see why the rule is in place, but i agree that it follows a double standard. Like someone said - why are they allowed to skate in the GP series if they can't go to Worlds?

 

[chuckm]

I think Ashley has earned the respect of the judges. They will be looking for her to continue to skate well at nationals. I think she can easily place top 3 by the LP. Her only short coming is that she does not seem to place well in the SP. So, Kimmie, Hughes, Mirai, Zhang, Bebe, Czisny and even Flatt could all be ahead of her after the SP. That is the only thing that could keep her off the podium. I hope she has worked on her program componets. She isn't scoring well there.

Ashley should score quite well at Nationals in the components. She got held down in the components in the GP because the ISU judges usually do that to skaters in their first year in the Senior GP. This was particularly true in the SPs, so Ashley had to fight her way back up to be in medal contention in the FS.

The difference in components among the top 10 shouldn't be anywhere near as great at Nationals.

 

[feraina]

The difference in components among the top 10 shouldn't be anywhere near as great at Nationals.

That's an interesting theory. I thought to myself, really? Wouldn't national judges also give the veterans an edge in PCS, if that's what int'l judges tend to do?

So then I went and checked out PCS from National's '07. Lo behold, Kimmie was getting low 7's, Rachael was getting low 6's as a young rookie. And now this year on the GP's, Kimmie's still getting low 7's (even at GPF), and Rachael's getting mid- to high-5's for clean LP's with 7 triples. Of course JGP and GP scoring aren't exactly the same, but that's still a significant difference. I don't think Rachael actually regressed in presentation; to me she seems somewhat improved this season. So maybe it really is as chuckm asserts, that the PCS range is squished at National's.

I guess Rachael will get at least low 6's again this year, and Caroline & Mirai should get high 6's, maybe even close to 7. Ashley should get mid to high 6's, too.

But if that's the case, then Kimmie, Emily, Alissa, etc, don't even have (much) higher PCS to fall back on -- I don't know what they have against the youngsters coming up with better jumps, spins, and spirals... besides upping the technical content of their own skating.

 

[Wrlmy]

But if that's the case, then Kimmie, Emily, Alissa, etc, don't even have (much) higher PCS to fall back on -- I don't know what they have against the youngsters coming up with better jumps, spins, and spirals... besides upping the technical content of their own skating.

Judges "could" decide to downgrade Rachael and Caroline's 3-3 while ratifying Kimmie's. But this year, I doubt they will have any gut to manipulate TES like that because GP records speak for themselves. If they ratify all of them, Ashley should definitely attempt her 3lz-3l. It will be interesting to see what happens. I agree Emily or Alissa would not benefit from higher PCS against the youngsters, but I have a feeling Kimmie would be getting at least mid 7's unless she falls more than three times.

 

[Nigel]

That's an interesting theory. I thought to myself, really? Wouldn't national judges also give the veterans an edge in PCS, if that's what int'l judges tend to do?

So then I went and checked out PCS from National's '07. Lo behold, Kimmie was getting low 7's, Rachael was getting low 6's as a young rookie. And now this year on the GP's, Kimmie's still getting low 7's (even at GPF), and Rachael's getting mid- to high-5's for clean LP's with 7 triples. Of course JGP and GP scoring aren't exactly the same, but that's still a significant difference. I don't think Rachael actually regressed in presentation; to me she seems somewhat improved this season. So maybe it really is as chuckm asserts, that the PCS range is squished at National's.

I guess Rachael will get at least low 6's again this year, and Caroline & Mirai should get high 6's, maybe even close to 7. Ashley should get mid to high 6's, too.

But if that's the case, then Kimmie, Emily, Alissa, etc, don't even have (much) higher PCS to fall back on -- I don't know what they have against the youngsters coming up with better jumps, spins, and spirals... besides upping the technical content of their own skating.

JGP PCS are typcially lower than the PCS at SGP....regardless of how good the skaters are. I would think that the skaters that have done well on the international circuit as juniors this fall will probably see solid PCS as seniors at US Natls, perhaps not as high as established seniors (like B/A or Meissner ), but I suspect that teams like Bates and Samuleson and singles skaters like Nagasu and Flatt will hold their own this year. With the disappointing fall season for the likes of Meissner, Hughes, Csziny, LIang...I would hope that the judges at Nationals actually judge what they see!

 

[mskater93]

I feel the USFSA should follow the ISU and just say 'nope, you're not Worlds/Oly age elligible, stay as a junior'

but had the rule existed when Kwan and Lipinski (well Tara was grandfathered out of that rule) were jumping through the ranks we might not have had Kwan for as long, and we might never have had Tara (with all of her injuries)

Kwan grandfathered out of the rule as did Sara Hughes due to medalling @ Jr Worlds. Loophole closed.

The rule is to keep shooting stars from coming in the year before Worlds at the age of ~14, making a name for themselves, winning the Olympics at 15 and quitting eligible level skating rather than for "saving skaters from injury". The rule was made by the ISU, NOT US Figureskating, and was trying to save the decline of skating popularity due to Oksana and Tara, who weren't around for the full quadrenium and who departed the scene as quickly as they came.

 

[gkelly]

Judges "could" decide to downgrade Rachael and Caroline's 3-3 while ratifying Kimmie's.

No, they can't. Downgrading jumps is the responsibility of the technical panel, not the judging panel.

Judges could decide to give Rachael and Caroline lower GOEs for their 3-3s or other elements and higher GOEs to Kimmie. They could also do the same with PCS.

If the technical panel downgrades any jumps (or calls wrong edge takeoffs), then the judges would be required to give negative GOE to those elements. Otherwise they can just use their judgment or the elements . . . or play games by giving pluses to whoever they want to "hold up" and 0s or minuses to those they want to hold down, IF they are so inclined.

USFSA creates al these rules saying that a girl cant be over 13 for juvenille, etc, and so at first they want the skaters young, then they say no, you can't go to worlds or the olympics which you have been dreaming about for years until 2 years later.

Of course, juvenile is 4 levels below senior. Even the most talented skaters usually take 4 or at most 3 years to move through those levels.

The skaters who get to senior level in the US before they're old enough for senior internationals were generally 9 or 10 when they were juveniles.

The ones who are 12 at juvenile level or who have to move up to intermediate before they're really competitive at that level because they're already 13 are not going to be skating at Nationals at the senior level a year or two later. Novice, maybe.

 

[Tonichelle]

The rule was made by the ISU, NOT US Figureskating,

Which is why I said the USFSA should follow the ISU... if their skaters can't skate internationall due to the rules at a certain level, then why give them the chance to do so nationally?

 

[gkelly]

Which is why I said the USFSA should follow the ISU... if their skaters can't skate internationall due to the rules at a certain level, then why give them the chance to do so nationally?

So if you're 12 years old (with a July birthday), novice champion last year at 11, already have a couple of triples and good skating skills, are you supposed to compete novice again for two more years because you won't even be eligible for junior internationals until year after next, and then compete junior for two years, even if you win the first year, until you're old enough for senior internationals?

How about a skater who started late and doesn't reach junior skill level until age 19? Should they not be allowed to compete as juniors when they finally are ready to pass the junior test? If they're good, they could be considered for senior internationals the following year; if they're not good enough to place well at Nationals or even to make it out of sectionals or regionals, international age limits wouldn't be an issue anyway so why forbid them from competing at the appropriate level or at all?

Should pair teams with age differences such that the girl is too young for junior internationals and the man is too old not be allowed to compete nationally at any level? Let them compete novice even though the man is also too old for novice internationals not that there are many such assignments made? What about when the girl does get old enough for juniors but the man is still too old? Should they then compete junior or senior or not at all?

Or if the pair or dance team is closer in age but the girl is the older one or there's less than 2 years difference? What level should they compete if their skill level is appropriate for juniors but one of them is too young for junior internationals (ditto for seniors two years later)? How about if they're not that precocious and don't become competitive at the junior level until the girl is 19 and/or the boy is 21 . . . force them to skate as seniors even if junior is the most appropriate level for their skills?

And what about skaters between 15 and 18 (as of the previous July 1; or between 15 and 20 for pair and dance guys) who are age eligible for both junior and senior? Should they compete at Nationals at the level they competed internationally during the fall of the same season or at the level they hope to earn assignments for next season?

What if they've never been good enough to get international assignments before but they have hopes of doing well this season and getting assignments for next year, when they might be either age out of or finally become old enough for the level they're currently competing at?

What if they had a great senior national debut at 15 or 16, got assigned the Grand Prix the following fall, (or even to Four Continents or Worlds or Olympics that winter), and then for whatever reason they don't do so well on the senior Grand Prix or at the following year's Nationals . . . they're still age eligible for juniors internationally -- should they not be considered for that year's Junior Worlds or the following season's JGP if they don't quite have the placements for senior assignments? Or should they be able to go back to competing junior nationally if they're not skating as well as the year they had their senior success?

What if they're not good enough to make it to Nationals in the first place? Can they compete at the appropriate skill level regardless of age in that case? Then what happens if they do unexpectedly qualify and place well enough to be considered for international assignments, even if they only end up going as alternates because skaters/teams ahead of them had to drop out?

There just seem to be too many different potential combinations of age and skill level to try to legislate competition level based on both. The ISU does it by age. The US does it on skill level nationally. When making international assignments they have to stay within the ISU age limits. But they do want the flexibility to give those rewards to the age-eligible skaters they think will make best use of them, and the level they competed at nationally or in fall internationals this year is not the only measure of who will do best in the post-Nationals ISU championships or in next season's fall events. Surely it's better to have some skaters compete at more than one level during the same season than to have some skaters who are not allowed to compete anywhere at any level because their age and skill level don't exactly match.

 

[Eddie Lee]

Age requirements are a slippery slope in skating!

Let's recall that amdist all the pundits' amazements at Yu Na Kim's and Mao Asada's remarkably, mature artistry at such a young age......that Sarah Hughes, Oksana Baiul, and Tara Lapinski were younger than either when they won Olympic Gold! These U. S. ladies reached the pinnacle at an age younger than what today's counterparts are allowed to even compete at these events!

Neither should we forget the tender age of Michelle Kwan when she garnered her first World's gold! Did she ever skate technically better? And some look at Carolina Zhang as a little girl amongst middle agers! ( Didn't Tara's 97 World's gold occur at roughly the same age as what Caroline is today?)