US Olympic Team Announced

[bekalc]

As someone who doesn't follow US Men closely, except for those I know from international competitions, I had the impression that the Olympics selection never was in doubt. Noone on this forum even mentioned Malinin as a contender before his skate, he wasn't on the radar. Just because he had one good skate doesn't mean the USFSA are suddenly going to overthrow their plans.

If I may be so bold, I also think the selection of Jason over any other skater also serves another purpose: he is interesting to watch. Many people only ever watch figure skating during the Olympics and this is THE once in four years chance to get more poeple interested. And while some casual viewers surely might be impressed by Malinin being good at quads, there are many other skaters both in America, but also in Japan and Europe who are also good (and better) at quads. But what Jason brings to the table is that he can absolutely wow a crowd. Sinnerman is one of the hottest SPs of the season and Schindler's list is also not exactly boring. He is also very likeable. I think he's a great ambassador of figure skating and I'm sure that counts for something with the federation.

This does not mean I don't think Jason deserves his spot based on merit, of course.

There are probably only three men in the world that can land the amount and kind of quads Ilia did and his quads are of better quality than Chan’s.

Furthermore the USFSA should be looking for guys who can medal period.

The fact that the US team was already chosen is the problem. Furthermore who exactly is left when all three retire?

other nations are giving their young skaters opportunities right away. How is the USFSA suppose to politic for Ilia when they just announced he wasn’t good enough to make the Olympic team over a good who cannot even consistently place top five in the world at worlds.

this mentality is why the US is losing they lucked into Nathan and yes Nathan losing 2016 nationals was dumb and would have never ever happened in any other country.

 

[DancingCactus]

There are probably only three men in the world that can land the amount and kind of quads Ilia did and his quads are of better quality than Chan’s.

I'm really not a fan of Nathan Chen, but this seems a bit disingenuous. Chen's quads are on a completely different level when it comes to height, pwer and stability.

Giving young skaters opportunities is very nice if you have free slots, but if you have other skaters that have made a name for themselves and bring a lot to the table, it makes sense to prioritize them.

 

[lariko]

No it’s not they are using him for JWC it is very unfair.

He missed out on JWC last year, and in year prior to that he had what? 12th or 14th place? Why should he miss out on that very respectable gold medal? And you can bet dollars to donuts that he will have 2GPs nest year. If Mozalev gets a deal half that good for Olympic shaft, I would drop to my knees and beg forgiveness for all uncomplimentary words I addressed to RusFed since the RusNats.

 

[bekalc]

I'm really not a fan of Nathan Chen, but this seems a bit disingenuous. Chen's quads are on a completely different level when it comes to height, pwer and stability.

Giving young skaters opportunities is very nice if you have free slots, but if you have other skaters that have made a name for themselves and bring a lot to the table, it makes sense to prioritize them.

At Nationals Ilias quads were. They are very good quality these are not eeked out quads.

Furthermore why would a skater who cannot consistently place in the top five at worlds be considered a lock down spot.

The USFSA should be looking for men who can podium not men who will consistently place seventh.

It’s rewarding mediocrity instead of the guys who are developing content and programs that can win.

A skater who cannot consistently place in the top five should be considered easily replaceable by a youngster. This is always how it use to be you know back when the USFSA use to win.

They use to prioritize giving younger skaters opportunities over older skaters who have repeatedly demonstrated they are not in contention for the world podium. That policy use to pay off for them.

 

[TontoK]

As someone who doesn't follow US Men closely, except for those I know from international competitions, I had the impression that the Olympics selection never was in doubt. Noone on this forum even mentioned Malinin as a contender before his skate, he wasn't on the radar. Just because he had one good skate doesn't mean the USFSA are suddenly going to overthrow their plans.

If I may be so bold, I also think the selection of Jason over any other skater also serves another purpose: he is interesting to watch. Many people only ever watch figure skating during the Olympics and this is THE once in four years chance to get more poeple interested. And while some casual viewers surely might be impressed by Malinin being good at quads, there are many other skaters both in America, but also in Japan and Europe who are also good (and better) at quads. But what Jason brings to the table is that he can absolutely wow a crowd. Sinnerman is one of the hottest SPs of the season and Schindler's list is also not exactly boring. He is also very likeable. I think he's a great ambassador of figure skating and I'm sure that counts for something with the federation.

This does not mean I don't think Jason deserves his spot based on merit, of course.

Ilia wasn't "not on anyone's radar." Several participants in this discussion have followed him for a couple of seasons, and we knew that he could complicate the Nathan/Vincent/Jason scenario - provided he could handle the nerves. His planned base value was too high to ignore, he was improving at a prodigious rate, and there were too many jaw-dropping practice clips to not consider that he would put that all together one day. We knew he had the goods. Was he generally favored to have this sort of breakthough at Nationals? Not by most, but many of us knew this sort of competition was a matter of "when" not "if."

USFSA declining to "suddenly overthrow their plans" is a red flag to many of us concerned that the sport can be governed by politics. Why should the federation have plans at all, other than to let the athletes determine the outcome on the ice? Some time ago, someone posted the USFSA mission statement or some such similar document. "Provide a fair and level field of play" or something similar wasn't even mentioned. I would think that would be Priority One for a national sport federation, but apparently not.

I don't fault you for liking Jason's skating, because I like it, too. I think he's amazing. But "interesting" and "likeable" and "great ambassador" are not, in my opinion, reasons to consider anyone for athletic team selection. Those are subjective arguments, and similar irrelevant arguments could be made for Ilia: "young" and "fresh" and "a blast to watch."

Your last statement, believing Jason deserved the spot on merit is a defensible position.

 

[el henry]

Ilia wasn't "not on anyone's radar." Several participants in this discussion have followed him for a couple of seasons, and we knew that he could complicate the Nathan/Vincent/Jason scenario - provided he could handle the nerves. His planned base value was too high to ignore, he was improving at a prodigious rate, and there were too many jaw-dropping practice clips to not consider that he would put that all together one day. We knew he had the goods. Was he generally favored to have this sort of breakthough at Nationals? Not by most, but many of us knew this sort of competition was a matter of "when" not "if."

USFSA declining to "suddenly overthrow their plans" is a red flag to many of us concerned that the sport can be governed by politics. Why should the federation have plans at all, other than to let the athletes determine the outcome on the ice? Some time ago, someone posted the USFSA mission statement or some such similar document. "Provide a fair and level field of play" or something similar wasn't even mentioned. I would think that would be Priority One for a national sport federation, but apparently not.

I don't fault you for liking Jason's skating, because I like it, too. I think he's amazing. But "interesting" and "likeable" and "great ambassador" are not, in my opinion, reasons to consider anyone for athletic team selection. Those are subjective arguments, and similar irrelevant arguments could be made for Ilia: "young" and "fresh" and "a blast to watch."

Your last statement, believing Jason deserved the spot on merit is a defensible position.

Jaw dropping practice clips, my friend, are just that. Practice clips. Of course Ilia was on the radar of those who follow the US men. He performed well, although not a world beater, in the JGP. He was sent to Cup of Austria to show what he could do as a senior, and the results were not impressive. He chose not to compete otherwise as a senior except at Nats.

Following a “fair and level field of play”? The US Fed did exactly that with a long and detailed document on how they were going to select Olympians. How fair would it be to Jason Brown, who made the senior Grand Prix final, who medaled in both Grand Prix events, whose median score is 30 points over Ilia’s, to ignore that document after he did all he could to fulfill its requirements?

I read @DancingCactus’ post to say considerations such as watchable and ambassador are considerations in addition to those merit based considerations. They occur in every single sport and they will occur in skating.

Of course I do happen to agree with their assessment

 

[TontoK]

Jaw dropping practice clips, my friend, are just that. Practice clips. Of course Ilia was on the radar of those who follow the US men. He performed well, although not a world beater, in the JGP. He was sent to Cup of Austria to show what he could do as a senior, and the results were not impressive. He chose not to compete otherwise as a senior except at Nats.

Following a “fair and level field of play”? The US Fed did exactly that with a long and detailed document on how they were going to select Olympians. How fair would it be to Jason Brown, who made the senior Grand Prix final, who medaled in both Grand Prix events, whose median score is 30 points over Ilia’s, to ignore that document after he did all he could to fulfill its requirements?

I read @DancingCactus’ post to say considerations such as watchable and ambassador are considerations in addition to those merit based considerations. They occur in every single sport and they will occur in skating.

Of course I do happen to agree with their assessment

The contributor said Ilia wasn't on anyone's radar. Of course, he was on the radar of knowledgeable skating fans. And why was he on our radar? Because we had seen what was possible. You can now discard the "pratice clips" thing with Ilia, because clearly he can deliver on competition ice. Of course, some of his other tricks have yet to appear - but I remain hopeful.

Regarding the politics: The contributor referred to overturning USFSA plans. Yes, the USFSA had a document. And non-participants evaluated athletes behind a closed door, with no public scrutiny or accountability. Whether you agree with this approach is up to you; I don't. But of course, politics and organizational advancement or self-preservation rarely come into play in our sport. It's almost unheard of.

I don't think the criteria was quite as clear-cut as you're making it out to be. You've made reference before to Jackie Wong's analysis, and of course he's an important voice. But (and I hesitate to point this out because I don't particularly enjoy their commentary) Tara and Johnny both saw things differently in their evaluation of the criteria. And, unlike Jackie, they are actually former National Champions and Olympians. If Jackie's voice is worth quoting, surely theirs is, too.

General likeability is a nonsense consideration. It's the Olympic Team, not the People's Choice Awards.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Following a “fair and level field of play”? The US Fed did exactly that with a long and detailed document on how they were going to select Olympians. How fair would it be to Jason Brown, who made the senior Grand Prix final, who medaled in both Grand Prix events, whose median score is 30 points over Ilia’s, to ignore that document after he did all he could to fulfill its requirements?

He didn't skate well at Nationals, so he could have done more to fulfill the requirements. Had Jason won, or medalled (top 3), he'd still be in Group 3. A 4th place finish is not a good result, and I think you're minimizing the extent he should be penalized for that placement. This isn't Nathan (Group 1) or Vincent (Group 2) who finished 4th, but rather the person who was already the 3rd favorite to make the team. Yes, going into Nationals he was the 3rd favorite by a good margin given his average international score median was well above all the others, but the criteria make clear that a medal at Nationals puts you on the same tier as someone who's scoring in the top 10 internationally for Olympics consideration. A great performance at Nationals can't necessarily get you on the team since no result there can leapfrog someone in Group 1 or Group 2, which require strong international results. But when you're in the same priority group, and one person is there based only on the National result and the other only on the international average score, it's a close call and not ignoring the document to choose Ilya or Jason.

 

[el henry]

The contributor said Ilia wasn't on anyone's radar. Of course, he was on the radar of knowledgeable skating fans. And why was he on our radar? Because we had seen what was possible. You can now discard the "pratice clips" thing with Ilia, because clearly he can deliver on competition ice. Of course, some of his other tricks have yet to appear - but I remain hopeful.

Regarding the politics: The contributor referred to overturning USFSA plans. Yes, the USFSA had a document. And non-participants evaluated athletes behind a closed door, with no public scrutiny or accountability. Whether you agree with this approach is up to you; I don't. But of course, politics and organizational advancement or self-preservation rarely come into play in our sport. It's almost unheard of.

I don't think the criteria was quite as clear-cut as you're making it out to be. You've made reference before to Jackie Wong's analysis, and of course he's an important voice. But (and I hesitate to point this out because I don't particularly enjoy their commentary) Tara and Johnny both saw things differently in their evaluation of the criteria. And, unlike Jackie, they are actually former National Champions and Olympians. If Jackie's voice is worth quoting, surely theirs is, too.

General likeability is a nonsense consideration. It's the Olympic Team, not the People's Choice Awards.

Maybe I need to clarify how I saw the post?

1. The contributor identified themselves as someone who is not a follower of the US men. The excellent folks on this Board, including you, knew about Ilia. I sat in a freezing rink in August 2019, (I had already knew his name and some of his skates), watching a tiny blond kid in a biker jacket (his costume for the SP) race around the rink. I thought to myself, this is one to watch. But otherwise I agree he was not on anyone's "general" radar.

2. Unless we do 1-2-3 at Nats, (and I like that idea, and that ship has sailed) every single discussion will be behind closed doors, it's true. I don't know if there are any skating feds that do 1-2-3 at Nats. Maybe Japan? So we deal with discussions.

3. I try not to listen to Tara and Johnny. But if they laid out a detailed analysis of the criteria, rather than oh my god, this kid landed quads, what a talent, he should go to the Olympics, I might (might ) listen.

4. I am tired of talking about the criteria and how obvious/not obvious the decision was. So my lips are now sealed. Truly. I make a solemn vow.

5. What a skater puts on the ice over the course of a year is what should be considered for selecting various teams. I saw the other considerations as "gravy" after the decision was made. Every single sport from professional teams to skating promotes the fluff, it does not make skating less of a sport to take advantage of it.

In general, I leapt in (and here I am jumping off and not directed at you) because I thought Jason's athletic skill set was misrepresented and sometimes diminished under the rubric of "beautiful skater". Also I was tired of Jason's competitiveness being disrespected. Jason's international PB is 274, achieved in 2020 4CC. If anyone thinks that Ilia Malinin would have scored 274 at the Olympics, I don't care if he lands every quad combo in his IG, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

Now (and not directed at you again) I truly am going to try to leave the thread. If someone quotes me and I do not answer, I am not trying to be rude, but I don't think I have anything new to say.

This thread is the gift that keeps on giving.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

My question was for those who advocated for the USFSA criteria: Would they have championed Vincent just as hard as they are Jason if Vincent had finished 4th? Would we have three (or more) threads about it? Would this thread be 45 pages and counting if Vincent had finished 4th?

Had Jason won Nationals and Vincent placed 5th, Vincent would have been picked. No one would have liked that result, but the selection criteria are clear that this result (along with the international scores) keeps Vincent in the higher priority group. Disagreeing with this selection is disagreeing with the criteria outlined in the document. What we had was two athletes in Group 3, one got there with international scores but would not have with the Nationals placement, while the other got there with a silver at Nationals but lacked the Group 3 international scores. The USFSA could have put these two (National medal and top 10 international average) in different priority groups, but chose to not to do that.

 

[DancingCactus]

Thanks @ el henry, you interpreted my post as intended. ^^

I follow major international figure skating events but I don't know much about the skaters who haven't (yet) made it to the big leagues.

Therefore it would have been really surprising to me if someone without much of an international senior track record were chosen over well-known skaters with international cred.

I did not mean to insinuate that experts on US skating wouldn't think highly of Ilia.

Btw, I'm female so you don't have to keep using "they"

 

[Tavi...]

He didn't skate well at Nationals, so he could have done more to fulfill the requirements. Had Jason won, or medalled (top 3), he'd still be in Group 3. A 4th place finish is not a good result, and I think you're minimizing the extent he should be penalized for that placement. This isn't Nathan (Group 1) or Vincent (Group 2) who finished 4th, but rather the person who was already the 3rd favorite to make the team. Yes, going into Nationals he was the 3rd favorite by a good margin given his average international score median was well above all the others, but the criteria make clear that a medal at Nationals puts you on the same tier as someone who's scoring in the top 10 internationally for Olympics consideration. A great performance at Nationals can't necessarily get you on the team since no result there can leapfrog someone in Group 1 or Group 2, which require strong international results. But when you're in the same priority group, and one person is there based only on the National result and the other only on the international average score, it's a close call and not ignoring the document to choose Ilya or Jason.

He didn’t skate well and his fourth place finish was a failure? Give me a break.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

He didn’t skate well and his fourth place finish was a failure? Give me a break.

Did I say it was a failure? I said he could have done more to fulfill the Group 3 criteria, and that 4th place is not a good result when there are three Olympic spots available.

 

[Myr]

But when you're in the same priority group, and one person is there based only on the National result and the other only on the international average score, it's a close call and not ignoring the document to choose Ilya or Jason.

I am not anglophone so it's possible that I did not understand the full meaning of the selection criteria, however it seems to me that these criteria exist precisely so the comitee is not obliged to go by the top 3 at nationals. So if someone is there only by national result and another is there by strong international scores they would go with the skater who showed consistent international results.

At least that is what the following passage, (under the heading 2.1. providing rationale for utilizing discretionary selection), seems to say to me:

"It has been the experience of U.S. Figure Skating that the athletes who have had success at the international and Olympic level are those who have demonstrated consistent performances as opposed to the athletes who have had only a single great performance. Therefore, by not having the selection process based solely on one event, U.S. Figure Skating can select the best athletes to represent the United States at the 2022 Olympic Winter Games. In addition to consistency, the athletes should demonstrate performances that are in a total point range that identifies them as being competitive at the 2022 Olympic Winter Games as described in 1.3.B. and 1.3.C."

 

[gliese]

Ilia has some big tricks he left out for Nationals, but intended to use for the Olympics. The quad quad combo for one. (How many points is a quad quad combo? I don't know). My opinion is Ilia should have been named to the Olympic team. Period. I think the GOE for his jumps should be higher than Nathan's jump GOE at this point. Jason of course is a crowd favorite and a lovely skater, but it is easier to do a lovely program when you are not attempting multiple quads. Much depends on the sport/vs./art consideration. But if it really is a sport, leaving Ilia out makes no sense.

I am a bit late to this but he was not intending his quad quad combo at the olympics. He even said he won't compete it at worlds.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I am not anglophone so it's possible that I did not understand the full meaning of the selection criteria, however it seems to me that these criteria exist precisely so the comitee is not obliged to go by the top 3 at nationals. So if someone is there only by national result and another is there by strong international scores they would go with the skater who showed consistent international results.

At least that is what the following passage, (under the heading 2.1. providing rationale for utilizing discretionary selection), seems to say to me:

"It has been the experience of U.S. Figure Skating that the athletes who have had success at the international and Olympic level are those who have demonstrated consistent performances as opposed to the athletes who have had only a single great performance. Therefore, by not having the selection process based solely on one event, U.S. Figure Skating can select the best athletes to represent the United States at the 2022 Olympic Winter Games. In addition to consistency, the athletes should demonstrate performances that are in a total point range that identifies them as being competitive at the 2022 Olympic Winter Games as described in 1.3.B. and 1.3.C."

That is something that is definitely in Jason's favor. However, Ilya was the best junior in the world this season, so picking him would be primarily, but not solely, based on the Nationals result.

 

[el henry]

I come back only to elaborate on the junior men's record.

Ilia won two JGPs, with scores of 214 and 245.

Gleb Lutfullin won two JGPs, both with scores of 230.

Ilia had the highest score. Both Gleb and Ilia have median scores of 230 from the JGP. There is certainly an argument that Gleb is Ilia's equal. Ilia did very well on the JGP, but did not run away with it.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I come back only to elaborate on the junior men's record.

Welcome back, and thanks for returning only to drag down Ilya some more. Ilya was the top qualifier to the JGPF and had the highest score on the series. Both of Gleb's results were better than Ilya's worst. I suppose your bar for Ilya all along has been that he has to be better in every aspect for fair consideration, so this statement is consistent with that

 

[sjchilly]

The contributor said Ilia wasn't on anyone's radar. Of course, he was on the radar of knowledgeable skating fans. And why was he on our radar? Because we had seen what was possible. You can now discard the "pratice clips" thing with Ilia, because clearly he can deliver on competition ice. Of course, some of his other tricks have yet to appear - but I remain hopeful.

Regarding the politics: The contributor referred to overturning USFSA plans. Yes, the USFSA had a document. And non-participants evaluated athletes behind a closed door, with no public scrutiny or accountability. Whether you agree with this approach is up to you; I don't. But of course, politics and organizational advancement or self-preservation rarely come into play in our sport. It's almost unheard of.

I don't think the criteria was quite as clear-cut as you're making it out to be. You've made reference before to Jackie Wong's analysis, and of course he's an important voice. But (and I hesitate to point this out because I don't particularly enjoy their commentary) Tara and Johnny both saw things differently in their evaluation of the criteria. And, unlike Jackie, they are actually former National Champions and Olympians. If Jackie's voice is worth quoting, surely theirs is, too.

General likeability is a nonsense consideration. It's the Olympic Team, not the People's Choice Awards.

Tara's competitive figure skating career was over in1998 and all skating was over by the time she was 18. She did have a body of senior international experience before being named to the Olympic team. Johnny had two chances at the Olympics where he finished off the medal stand in 5th and 6th. Johnny was never competitive after age 25. Both are always anxious to pounce on the newest latest and greatest.

 

[Tavi...]

Did I say it was a failure? I said he could have done more to fulfill the Group 3 criteria, and that 4th place is not a good result when there are three Olympic spots available.

Actually, no, you didn’t use the word failure. You said the following with no qualifier whatsoever:

“A fourth place finish is not a good result result, and I think you're minimizing the extent he should be penalized for that placement.”