How much is a triple Axel really worth?

[feraina]

3Lz: base value 6.0. N = 68. Actual average value in competition = 2.89.

3F: base value 5.5. N = 57. Actual average value in competition = 2.59.

3Lo: base value 5.0. N = 47. Actual average value in competition = 3.31.

3S: base value 4.5. N = 59. Actual average value in competition = 3.21.

3T: base value 4.0. N = 45. Actual average value in competition = 2.21.

2A: base value 3.5. N = 62. Actual average in competition = 3.41.

Bottom line – if you want to win, load up your program with double Axels, loops and Salchows! :yes:

Skaters often knowingly choose to do a difficult jump they're not totally consistent with, partly to get experience, and partly because they know to have any chance at a "good" result, they need to attempt those jumps (and hopefully land them). For instance, Yukari knows she needs the 3A to challenge the top ladies with the 3/3's, Mao know she needs the 3A and the two 3/3's to challenge Yu-na. And as for Miki's quad, what's her average score on all her attempts? Probably lower than the average for all 3A attempts. But she knows that she needs it to beat Mao/Yu-na.

If you want to win, it is certainly not enough to load up with 2A's, 3Lp's, and 3S's, because to win major competitions you need to challenge skaters who get the top scores on all the jumps, not the average skaters who get the average scores.

I am also for raising the base values of quads and 3A's. They don't have to be the same for men and ladies, because they obviously don't have the same kind of bodies. I also agree though that the GOE's should be made more proportional to the base values.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

.How does defining a difficult element more precisely make it any easier for skaters who have trouble with that element to execute it correctly?

The differences between the Flip and the Lutz and the Loop and Sal Chow, and the Toe Loop and the Axel are their definitions. How else would one explain the differences of these elements?

If you start giving no credit for elements that come up short just slightly in meeting the definition, I expect that what would happen is that fewer skaters would even attempt the element -- they would just replace it with something they know they can get credit for.

So what if there are fewer skaters? What is it about the numbers that are so important?

What will remain are the most proficient skaters among those competing for a championship. I believe that is the point of all sports. To seek out the best that night.

Joe

 

[mskater93]

Now, if Miki started to put the quad in...she could become untouchable technically, even if the values remain as they are. Replacing the triple salchow with the quad in her recent Nationals layout and the final 2A with a 3S would result in:
3Z-3R, 4S, 3F, 3R*, 3Z*, 3T-2R-2R*, 3S-2R*
Base Value: 52.4

She's got to do an Axel type jump somewhere in the program. This layout doesn't have one. She could do 2A-2R-2R since the 3T seems to be a bit shaky for her.

 

[gkelly]

The differences between the Flip and the Lutz and the Loop and Sal Chow, and the Toe Loop and the Axel are their definitions. How else would one explain the differences of these elements?

You can define them and still recognize with partial credit attempts to meet the definitions that fall short by little enough that the intention is recognizable and an element is basically completed.

The definitions of those jumps include not only the takeoff edge but also landing on one foot on a backward edge. Sometimes skaters land on two feet. They get partial credit for the jump -- and how much partial credit depends in part on how much weight was on the other foot. In the old system, when the rules actually said that a jump landed on two feet didn't count, there was still credit given for jumps landed with the weight on the landing foot and an incidental touchdown of the free foot . . . and even for badly two-footed jumps it certainly sometimes seemed that judges were giving some mental credit for the attempt.

So what if there are fewer skaters? What is it about the numbers that are so important?

I didn't say there would be fewer skaters. I said there would be fewer skaters attempting elements that they can't execute perfectly according to the definitions. If a triple "flutz" or double "toe axel" were to receive zero credit, then skaters who can't do a proper lutz or a proper toe loop would just stop even attempting those jumps and only do the jumps they can do.

If a sitspin with the buttocks slightly above the knees does not count as a spin, then skaters who can't get any lower than that will stop attempting sitspins except when required to do so in the short program. (This is my problem with the current sitspin rule.) Similarly for skaters who can't do camels with the free foot at hip height. Skaters who can't do either position aren't going to win championships, but they are going to enter competitions -- should they do only upright spins, or should they include their not-quite-adequate attempts at other positions?

What will remain are the most proficient skaters among those competing for a championship. I believe that is the point of all sports. To seek out the best that night.

Skating competitions exist at all levels. Only the best from the lower levels make it to the championships. But there need to be rules that make sense at the levels that everyone, including the future champions, compete in along the way.

 

[Mathman]

The definitions of those jumps include not only the takeoff edge but also landing on one foot on a backward edge.

I wonder why this point is never stressed when people talk about definitions. Is the definition of a Lutz "take-off on back outside edge AND land on back outside edge of the other foot?"

So if you land on the wrong edge, or two-foot the landing, by definition you haven't done a Lutz, but rather some non-listed, unnamed jump (0 credit).

No one seems to be lobbying for that interpretation.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

.

The definitions of those jumps include not only the takeoff edge but also landing on one foot on a backward edge. Sometimes skaters land on two feet. They get partial credit for the jump -- and how much partial credit depends in part on how much weight was on the other foot. In the old system, when the rules actually said that a jump landed on two feet didn't count, there was still credit given for jumps landed with the weight on the landing foot and an incidental touchdown of the free foot . . . and even for badly two-footed jumps it certainly sometimes seemed that judges were giving some mental credit for the attempt

.

As to the definitions of those jumps, except for the take-off, all jumps look the same in the air and landings. It is without question that the take off is what makes them different. Scott Hamiliton gave a demonstration on this very same subject. I for one consider the take off the most important part of a jump to differentiate from the others.

I'm not against partial credit. I am all for mandatory deductions in every phase of the jump with a wrong edge takeoff as being the most serious. If the poor skater has trouble with a take off, it is not the end of the world for them. There are so many points in CoP where a skater can make up for it by just leaving it out. It would make for better PCS scores.

Also I am not trying to keep skaters out of competition. I just want them to know what to expect in competition, and what competition expects from them.

Joe

 

[waltzjump]

A ladies program with 8 or 9 triple jumps, without 3A or quadruple?

8 triples:

3Lz-3T
3Lz
3F-3Lo
3F
2A-3T (-2Lo)
3Lo
2A

What's wrong with the rules of free program?

And the following has 9 triples:

3Lz-3T
3Lz
3F-3Lo
3F
3S-3T (-2Lo)
3Lo
2A

Such programs are out of capabilities of any competing lady.
But every triple is repeated max. twice. Mathman says that, without 3A or quadruple jumps, a program can not contain more than 7 triple jumps.
Why? What are the rules?
I think I missed some explanation.
Thank you

 

[Justlooking]

8 triples:

Such programs are out of capabilities of any competing lady.
But every triple is repeated max. twice. Mathman says that, without 3A or quadruple jumps, a program can not contain more than 7 triple jumps.
Why? What are the rules?
I think I missed some explanation.
Thank you

You can only repeat a triple jump twice.

 

[gkelly]

You can only repeat a triple jump twice.

And you can only repeat two different triples.

So whatever the number of *different* triples you're able to do, add 2 and that's the maximum number of triples you're allowed to do.

 

[Mathman]

As gkelly explained, you can only repeat two different triple jumps, and each of those can be done only twice.

In the program with 8 triple jumps, the skater repeated the Lutz, flip, loop, and toe. That's four diffrent jumps.

In that program the skater would not get credit for the 3T in the 2A-3T combo and would not get credit for the solo loop.

But now I have to turn your question over to the experts (gkelly, are you still on line? ) In Waltzjump's 8-triple program, the skater gets full credit for the 2A in the 2A-3T combo, right?

But if she does 2A+3T+2Lo, how is that scored? Does the 2Lo count? Does it count as an extra jumping pass (taking away the last double Axel)? Does 2A+***+2Lo count as a sequence?

Does the illegal solo 3Lo take up a jumping pass?

Thanks for posting, Waltzjump. Welcome to the forum!

 

[Justlooking]

And you can only repeat two different triples.

So whatever the number of *different* triples you're able to do, add 2 and that's the maximum number of triples you're allowed to do.

I should have put a comma
You can only repeat a jump, twice .

 

[gkelly]

But now I have to turn your question over to the experts (gkelly, are you still on line? ) In Waltzjump's 8-triple program, the skater gets full credit for the 2A in the 2A-3T combo, right?

No. At 2005 Worlds, Irina Slutskaya did three triple loops. The last one was in 3Lo+2Lo combination, and she did get credit for the double loop although not for the triple.

The next season they changed the rules so that the skater would get no credit at all for a combination that included an extra repeated jump.

 

[merrybari]

Oh man! All I can say is skaters and their teams need to add a wizard to figure all this out. Phew!! It's a wonder any of them can figure it out - judges included! It's totally beyond me - I'll just sit back and enjoy the results.

Thanks for your help in clarifying gkelly.

 

[waltzjump]

Thank you for your explanation.

And how did the businnes work, in 6.0 era?
Were there a maximum of jump passes and combination passes? If yes, did a repeated solo jump count as a combination? Etc etc...

 

[gkelly]

And how did the businnes work, in 6.0 era?
Were there a maximum of jump passes and combination passes? If yes, did a repeated solo jump count as a combination? Etc etc...

There was not a maximum number of jump passes.

There wasn't always a maximum number of combination passes, but a maximum of three combos or sequences was introduced in the mid-1990s.

Technically, if the same triple jump was repeated and was not in combination either time it was not supposed to count. It's impossible to know how strictly any judges applied that rule or not.

For example, at 1996 Worlds in a fairly close contest between Todd Eldredge and Ilia Kulik, Kulik did two triple flips with neither one in combination and ended up second; several commentators/reporters and Kulik himself mentioned that if he had added a double toe to one of them he would have won.

Would any of the judges who placed Eldredge first have gone the other way if only Kulik had done that double toe, or did they have other reasons that figured more importantly in their decisions about first vs. second place? We'll never know.