Wasn't it toe loops?
I can't find the video. But there's a big difference in the possibility to regenerate speed for a 2T from almost a standstill vs. being able to maintain enough flow for even a 2Lo following previous jumps.
Triple-Triple combos are worthless for most Women in the Long Program with the current rules
- Thread starter Blades of Passion
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I can't find the video. But there's a big difference in the possibility to regenerate speed for a 2T from almost a standstill vs. being able to maintain enough flow for even a 2Lo following previous jumps.
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My memory might be faulty. I just remember the audience counting them out with glee.
Here she is doing a triple Salchow / triple toe / Triple loop combo.
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Huh? Advocating for double loop combos in pairs, including a +3T+2L, lol?! Double loop combos are hard to execute nicely in singles - they're certainly not what I would ever call "exciting", often done with little height or flow throughout (so many double loops combos - see below Zabiako and Cain - land on practically a stand still, or even the wrong/scratchy edge, because the skater goes up and down instead of achieving distance).
I mean it's cute for you to imagine miraculous combos that skaters should do (especially pairs skaters), but you might need to get your head out of the clouds... there are reasons loop combos are so rare in pairs today (non-existent at the past 4 worlds), and have been rarely done in pairs historically? Heck, how frequently do you see your suggested +3T+2L appear in any singles skating protocol?
I'm guessing you have never been a pairs skater or trained a double loop or triple loop in combination, because if you had, you'd know that the precise timing and rhythm on takeoff makes them quite difficult to tack onto a combo — and especially difficult trying to do it in unison with a partner while still making it look good (hence why it's so rare in pairs). If you're too early or too late you kill your momentum, so you have to jump when it's "right for you". It's very easy to get 'outside your circle' depending on how you take off and land (you can see at 6:10 here how Enbert's 2L is botched because of this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdRCoZixjz8&t=370s).
In the past decade at Worlds in pairs, a +2L in combination (two or three jump combo) has been attempted just THREE times by only TWO pairs. In 2019 by Z/E and C/L (both successfully: Z/E's 3T+2T+2L https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO8Qof_-WXs&t=344s was nicely-synced but still her 2L was scratchy and could have had better flow; C/L's 3S+2T+2L was okay but the unison was off and her flow on the 2L was poor https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cD9rV4V2u0c&t=116s) and once in 2017 by Z/E when it was << on the 2L, as seen above, where Zabiako's was also lacking flow and a strong exit on her 2L).
As hard as a +2T+2L combo is to sync up/execute well for pairs, it's still easier to execute than a +2A sequence, so I'm not sure why you find that to be hilarious - it's only worth 0.3 less than a 2A, and a +2A is MUCH harder to do with just stepping forward directly from the first jump (especially if it's a 2A or triple). Remember these are pairs skaters, where a 2A is one of the hardest SBS jumps they are capable of (most cap out at a solo 3S) - so you can't expect them to have the same jumping ability/ease of combos as singles skaters who can more reliably put a 2A in sequence... even a typical, seemingly easy +2T+2L seen in singles is rare in pairs, as you've acknowledged and as indicated above).
Because pairs skaters aren't the strongest solo jumpers, it is especially ambitious to want a pairs team to try a +2L+2L combo — even in singles as 3-jump series you don't see it often... if double loop combos were so feasible and reliable to execute well, more pairs skaters would do them for the added BV — but they're not easy to execute well — risky in fact. Also, IMO, combo'ed double loop or double toe loop tend to be more meaningless as 'pair' element because often skaters are out of unison due to size differences and because each skater is simply trying to get the combo done as the timing suits them personally, rather than sync/adjust to match their partner - they just do the combo as best they can and hope it's in sync.
However with a double axel sequence, even if you are ahead or behind your partner in the sequence, you can intentionally adjust the timing and rhythm of when you step forward into the next axel jump, and thus attempt to regain unison with your partner. This, to me, puts it more in the camp of an actual "pairs" element (the same way if you're out of sync in a SBS pair spin, you can have the wherewithal to slow down/pause or speed up/catch up to regain unison with your partner so your rotation syncs up again). And thus a +2A or a +2A+2A series is arguably MORE "meaningful" in the grand scheme of pairs skating, and if anything, a step forward (no pun intended) in pairs SBS combos - which are historically seen more as 'every partner for themselves and hopefully it's in unison'. Here's one by P/S at Euros, which is very well-done, the 2As are well timed to the phrasing of the music, and this combo shows way more ice coverage, control, and flow on the landing than any +2T+2L combo ever done. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0C0hX8qUTPU&t=60s
Funny how you consider a +2A series as "gross" and extol the virtues of an "exciting" 2L combo. Guess we have different takes on what excites us and what we find gross.
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- Sep 14, 2008
It's never seen because it's not worth anything, because the code of points sucks. It was seen, and rewarded, during the 6.0 era, and it would be seen again right now if it was given the bonus it deserves. +3Toe+3Loop should especially be worth a lot, but the CoP killed this line of technical ambition.
But don't you see, you're just arguing for why these combos should be worth a lot if a pair could do it. And as long as it's never worth doing, then of course we will never see it. Even just a +3T on its own is much preferable to the ugly +2A+2A sequence, but it's worth far less.
I also want things like Gordeeva/Grinkov's +1Lo+euler+2S to worth doing, but thus far in the CoP it never has been.
No, absolutely not. This doesn't even make sense after you just went on and on about how difficult loop combos are for pairs. +2A sequence is something hundreds of pairs have been doing, long before the new rule made them ultra valuable.
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A +3T is way more difficult though than a +2X+2X. Are there even a dozen pairs who have executed a triple in the second part of combination (or eu 3S)? And counting out Russians that’s even less. So I’m not sure the point of fantasizing that teams (most of whom are just trying to get a consistent solo SBS 3T) should train that as if it’s achievable or feasible. On brand though - didn’t you suggest a while ago that Wagner should train to backload her program with 5 triples, including a 3L+2A and 3T+2A (something she’d never done) series?
You're acting like the +2A series is holding back triple triple combos as if triple triple combos are valuable enough to have pairs train them. Much like quad throws, skaters only train them to stand out and for the challenge/achievement, not because it will likely make a significant difference in them winning or not.
A double loop combo is more difficult to achieve unison and flow on in pairs which makes it an unappealing choice for a SBS jump. But that doesn’t make it easier to execute in general. As several people have mentioned before it’s about getting the most points but also looking at what is feasible to execute. If your SBS +2T+2L sequence looks like crap (and isn’t worth the same as a +2A) of course you will train a more aesthetically pleasing sequence. If that sequence garners more points, even better. Shockingly, once the sequence deduction was removed, we have seen more 2A sequences - does that mean they suddenly became easier? No.
In pairs double axel series have been done historically because it is easier to get unison on, and gives a better impression of difficulty than a series of easier doubles. If a skater can’t do a 3-3 it’s seen as the next best (ie hardest) thing. To my points earlier it’s because you can actually achieve unison and treat it like a pairs element and get flow if both partners execute it. Whereas you can see with Z/E C/L above, both partners can execute a 3X+2T+2L but it can get hella sloppy.
Even singles skaters as pointed earlier prefer toe loops and axels in combination compared to a momentum-killing, land-on-standstill/wrong edge loop, so it’s not worth doing a loop combo because of the likely loss of GOE.
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- Jan 25, 2013
Although.,, as Ilia shows here it’s so easy to do an axel as a series so more women and men’s singles skaters should start training +3A sequences, since they’re so much easier than 3T and 3L combos!
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@ilia_quadg0d_ on Instagram: "Another clip of Ilia's SEQ jump: 4T+3A+3A+3A+3A+3A(+3A) Its base value is 49.50!!! And if the last jump is a 3A, the base value goes up to 57.90!! I can't believe this is real. Ilia is insane. 🤯😯😍👍🏻👏🏻 Super incredible
1,388 likes, 20 comments - ilia_quadg0d_ on February 11, 2025: "Another clip of Ilia's SEQ jump: 4T+3A+3A+3A+3A+3A(+3A) Its base value is 49.50!!! And if the last jump is a 3A, the base value goes up to 57.90!! I can't believe this is real. Ilia is insane. 🤯😯😍👍🏻👏🏻 Super incredible skater...
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