2021-2022 US Women's Figure Skating

[MrMC18]

We aren't bashing Karen. No one has said anything bad about Karen. As it happens, I personally don't favor Mariah, Karen, or Alysa. They are all equal in my opinion as skaters. They aren't, however, equal in scoring potential and that is what we are discussing. We are bashing the USFS. There is a clear difference. One is a skater who just did the best she could in a given situation. The other went against its own criteria and made a stupid, biased decision which led to a rather terrible result. Please don't equate two very different things.

Bro you're the one who started this fire. You've already made your point clear so many times, why do you keep repeating how Karen didn't deserve to be in the team event? This forum was quiet after that comment asking everyone to be nice to Karen until you stirred the pot. You said before that Alysa wouldn't have lost to Canada and Georgia? There's no way you could know that when Alysa wasn't even here to compete.

No one has bashed Karen in a personal sense, yes, but I find it terrible how people immediately thought "Damn, this is why Karen was a liability. She didn't deserve to go, etc..." Like what? There have been very few comments being positive towards Karen, it's just been this useless speculation about how Karen was selected over Mariah and Alysa. The USFS decided and I find it extremely pointless to conclude whether or not sending Karen was a biased decision. There's nothing any of us here can do about it.

 

[ManyCairns]

We aren't bashing Karen. No one has said anything bad about Karen. As it happens, I personally don't favor Mariah, Karen, or Alysa. They are all equal in my opinion as skaters. They aren't, however, equal in scoring potential and that is what we are discussing. We are bashing the USFS. There is a clear difference. One is a skater who just did the best she could in a given situation. The other went against its own criteria and made a stupid, biased decision which led to a rather terrible result. Please don't equate two very different things.

Strong "yes" to this! I have not seen bashing or "hating" of Karen -- just questioning her choice for the team. That's oceans away from attacking her personally. And why shouldn't we talk tactics? We'd be a boring bunch if all we were allowed to say is "rah rah, everything is unicorns and rainbows."

I don't think there was a clear choice from the beginning. Liu at the start of the season was strong, but with COVID, the changes in her team and circumstances, etc. -- her trajectory seemed to be going down, but if she could have been healthy and showed both her sp and lp at Nationals, there would have been great data points one way or the other. I see Mariah and Karen as about equal in that the both have strengths and vulnerabilities, but for me, Mariah's overall season, esp. her GP showings and Nationals, would have given her a slight edge.

Mostly, though, the new information that was just confirmed by Karen that the selection was made a month ago is dumbfounding, infuriating, and does smack of favoritism, presumably for Gambill. And since this information is newly confirmed, we are just now as fans getting the chance to react to it.

 

[lesnar001]

This covid argument is kind of moot considering brandon also had covid and yet and K/F are competing in the team event. Also, there was an interview done with one of her coaches in January where he said they would be leavin for Beijing on the 4th. So If it was a problem with testing negative, I highly doubt he would have given a specific date like that. More likely she and her team knew she hadn't been picked for the TE, and thus didn't bother leaving for Beijing earlier than necessary.

Well, we really don't know how COVID affected either skater. Maybe Alysa was sicker than Brandon was.

I saw pictures of US Bobsledder Elena Meyers Taylor doing barbell squats in her hotel room while she was in isolation after testing positive. And then you had the case of Aliona Kosternaia being affected much greater by it.

 

[R.D.]

That’s so weird. This article says Karen was told she’d skate the team event a month ago. https://www.si.com/olympics/2022/02/06/beijing-us-figure-skating-team-event-chen-zhou

Now that is interesting...

I think the responsibility of the federation is to put together the best possible team at the time of the event from the available competitors who realize their selection is part of a team. That includes monitoring the athletes in official practices and making the decision at the event.

I couldn't agree more.


From the SI article (emphasis mine):

On the women’s side, Alysa Liu, the only American who can compete a triple axel, might have been a stronger choice than Chen, but Liu was unavailable for reasons U.S. Figure Skating has not yet disclosed.

I think I will just say this: if the individual event rolls around and Liu ends up making a solid impression, people are going to start asking questions. I think it would be in US Skating's best interest to be as transparent as permissible during this process, both for its sake, and for its skaters' sakes.

 

[AlysaLiuStan]

I don't think Alysa would have beaten Wakaba (Wakaba is a different level of quality) but she wouldn't have been beaten by Madeline or Gubanova. COVID in this case is just an excuse because K/F were chosen despite the fact that his case of COVID-19 was far worse than Alysa's.

Liu beat Higuchi at Skate Canada, so she very well could’ve been second here.

 

[readernick]

[[

Liu beat Higuchi at Skate Canada, so she very well could’ve been second here.

Ok, more specifically, Alysa wouldn't have beat a clean Wakaba. If Wakaba popped her her jumps like she did at SC, then yes, Alysa, could have beaten her.

 

[readernick]

The USFS decided and I find it extremely pointless to conclude whether or not sending Karen was a biased decision. There's nothing any of us here can do about it.

So, you are fine with bias but you have a problem if we point it out? That's an interesting ethical code to live by. Honestly, my primary interest in this is justice. The USFS release selection criteria and then they ignored it and selected Karen. That is not just to the athletes who knew about that criteria and tried to fulfill it, only to have someone else selected over them who hasn't met the criteria. I would be equally irritated if Karen was the one who was skipped over if she met the criteria but was snubbed for someone else.

As for the rest, ok. If you don't like speculation and discussion of scoring potential that's fine. But, perhaps don't visit this thread because that's what people do here. The skaters fan threads are where you can go to just find positivity about your favorites. Visit Karen's

 

[Dawn825]

Not choosing Alysa kind of makes sense, tho I might have done it anyways. She withdrew from Nationals without the opportunity to prove that changing coaches so late in the season wasnt a mistake, or that her head was in the game and her emotional state stable.
If the decision had to be made at Nationals for some reason, the only sensible choice would be Mariah, who won the event and did better on the GP.
And the fact that they told Karen immediately that she was doing the event, but didn't bother to tell Mariah that she wasnt, makes it seem like they knew it was a dodgy decision.
Personally I dont much care either way between Karen or Mariah, but it seems clear that Karen was not chosen based on anything she did this season.
I feel very bad for Karen, I was so happy for her for a hot second after she stayed up on the combo...

 

[lesnar001]

[[
Ok, more specifically, Alysa wouldn't have beat a clean Wakaba. If Wakaba popped her her jumps like she did at SC, then yes, Alysa, could have beaten her.

Alysa's score from Skate Canada was lower than Wakaba's score in the team event, but if her 3A were "clean", she would have scored more. So I think this potential might be what people are referring to. However, if Alysa had skated here, I wonder if Wakaba would have attempted her 3A instead. In that case, even it had some minor problems, she would score higher than Alysa.

What's interesting is Alysa's SP from her other GP event. She barely scored above what Anastasia Gubanova did in this team event. So there would have been a chance she would have finished in the same placement as Karen Chen did had her SP gone more like NHK than Skate Canada.

Since Karen Chen is known for her UR issues, did she UR the 2nd jump in the combo? It kind of looked like it me, but I haven't been able to access the pdf of the judges' scores. Would that have been enough of a penalty to affect her placement?

 

[readernick]

Since Karen Chen is known for her UR issues, did she UR the 2nd jump in the combo? It kind of looked like it me, but I haven't been able to access the pdf of the judges' scores. Would that have been enough of a penalty to affect her placement?

Karen got an UR call on her combo and a q on the loop she fell on. I imagine with an UR combo and a 3Loq she wouldn't have scored above Madeline even without the fall. However, she may have been one place higher.

 

[bytheriver]

I do think it’s unfair to speculate that the other ladies would have done so much better than Karen, especially with Alysa as her current skating condition is unknown. Could the Alysa from Lombardia had placed higher? Sure, but she’s not in the same condition she was then, things have changed, and her unders would have actually been called here.

Re: Mariah, let’s not rewrite history and act as if she is some incredibly high scoring skater. She doesn’t have a 3-3 and barely eked out that one on the q in the short at nationals. At their previous head to head, Karen beat her (however weakly), and Mariah has never placed higher than 9th (or was it 12th) at Worlds. So we can shoulda coulda woulda all day about this, but I doubt we will see either Alysa or Mariah beating Karen by a country mile in the individual. I stand by the thought that they will place all three in a row, likely between 9th and 11th or 7th and 9th in the best case. We’re comparing apples to apples at this stage.

 

[Remilia]

Well, we really don't know how COVID affected either skater. Maybe Alysa was sicker than Brandon was.

But that's not the point, the point is the USFS made the decision to use Karen before Alysa even had a chance to recover from covid. If the decision had been made afterwards when the USFS saw that maybe she wasn't in proper condition due to side effects or lost ice time, then fine, fair enough. But that's not what happened.

Besides, Alysa was asymptomatic and back in training a little over a week after nats, so while obviously not impossible, I doubt she was sicker than Brandon.

 

[saturdaysun]

Not choosing Alysa kind of makes sense, tho I might have done it anyways. She withdrew from Nationals without the opportunity to prove that changing coaches so late in the season wasnt a mistake, or that her head was in the game and her emotional state stable.
If the decision had to be made at Nationals for some reason, the only sensible choice would be Mariah, who won the event and did better on the GP.
And the fact that they told Karen immediately that she was doing the event, but didn't bother to tell Mariah that she wasnt, makes it seem like they knew it was a dodgy decision.
Personally I dont much care either way between Karen or Mariah, but it seems clear that Karen was not chosen based on anything she did this season.
I feel very bad for Karen, I was so happy for her for a hot second after she stayed up on the combo...

How do you know they didn't tell Mariah? Every single athlete including Nathan has been giving the same "no final decisions yet, but I'm ready just in case" quote to interviewers when asked about the team event before the USFS officially announced by their deadline. It's called being media-trained and not creating headlines, it's not some juicy insight into the fed's decision-making. And it's not clear at all that Karen was chosen for some nefarious reason. Your personal opinion may be that "the only sensible choice" was Mariah but this thread has literally dozens of pages of discussion about the pros and cons of each lady. Each of them have strengths and weaknesses and legitimate reasons to have been chosen or not. To say only Karen out of the three of them could been a biased choice not based on results is ridiculous and rude.

 

[elliana]

I'm not the biggest fan of Karen esp after the naive-princessy comments she made after the last Olympics, but at least she has a 3Lz-3T. Mariah couldn't pull out a 3Lz-3Lo or a 3Lz-eu-3S to save her life, and is lucky that the depth of US skaters is what it is, and that Bradie is injured so she could make it to an Olympics. Had Mariah been doing 3-3's all season consistently I think they might've chosen her. Oh well! US getting a silver medal vs. bronze is at least an improvement! In 2026 we'll try again for gold with a new crop of skaters!

 

[Thrashergurl]

Mariah wouldn’t have skated any better than Karen. Mariah isn’t the model of consistency at all. She was a lucky to have won Nationals over Karen.
When is the last time Alysa landed a triple axel? She seems like a big question mark right now with all the drama in her life. I don’t see her as the savior is US skating at all. She doesn’t even seem to want to be skating

Karen is a beautiful skater. Leave her alone. None of the US ladies is anywhere close to the level of the Russians or the Japanese. Looks like Canada might pass them too.

Just enjoy the skates and accept them for what they are able to do instead of complaining because your own expectations weren’t realistic.

 

[halulupu]

Us fed is unbelievable, full of favoritism, stuck in the 6.0 area. Really their decisions don't make any sense. They are much worse than the Russian fed. No offense to Karen, but she barely rotates any of her triple. Her short wasn't anything than stellar jump wise. In the 6.0 area she would be the star. But it has been now 20 (!)years

 

[Thrashergurl]

I'm not the biggest fan of Karen esp after the naive-princessy comments she made after the last Olympics, but at least she has a 3Lz-3T. Mariah couldn't pull out a 3Lz-3Lo or a 3Lz-eu-3S to save her life, and is lucky that the depth of US skaters is what it is, and that Bradie is injured so she could make it to an Olympics. Had Mariah been doing 3-3's all season consistently I think they might've chosen her. Oh well! US getting a silver medal vs. bronze is at least an improvement! In 2026 we'll try again for gold with a new crop of skaters!

I’m sorry, but I remember the media crucified her because she said she missed her mom. How old was she?? Pretty young. Why didn’t this same media crucify Sasha Trusova for saying she missed her mom at last years worlds? The media does this. Not the skaters.

 

[saturdaysun]

Us fed is unbelievable, full of favoritism, stuck in the 6.0 area. Really their decisions don't make any sense. They are much worse than the Russian fed. No offense to Karen, but she barely rotates any of her triple. Her short wasn't anything than stellar jump wise. In the 6.0 area she would be the star. But it has been now 20 (!)years

I'm sorry, but the scenario in this post, as if they chose Karen over a pool of available Kamilas, is hilarious.

 

[Lzbee]

I'm not the biggest fan of Karen esp after the naive-princessy comments she made after the last Olympics, but at least she has a 3Lz-3T. Mariah couldn't pull out a 3Lz-3Lo or a 3Lz-eu-3S to save her life, and is lucky that the depth of US skaters is what it is, and that Bradie is injured so she could make it to an Olympics. Had Mariah been doing 3-3's all season consistently I think they might've chosen her. Oh well! US getting a silver medal vs. bronze is at least an improvement! In 2026 we'll try again for gold with a new crop of skaters!

I’m sorry, but I remember the media crucified her because she said she missed her mom. How old was she?? Pretty young. Why didn’t this same media crucify Sasha Trusova for saying she missed her mom at last years worlds? The media does this. Not the skaters.

@elliana is this what you mean by "naive princessy comments"???

Karen would've been 18 at the time which I think is fair. Tbh I think it's fair to miss your mum at any age.

 

[Alex Fedorov]

I'm sorry, but the scenario in this post, as if they chose Karen over a pool of available Kamilas, is hilarious.

in the United States, as I understand it, this crisis has long been in progress, but the reasons for it are not clear. All the possibilities are there, and in the past everything was fine.