What Makes Jumps Different from each other?

[Joesitz (RIP)]

(I think this topic got lost in the 3A topic so I am repeating it here.)

As to the definitions of the jumps, except for the take-off, all jumps look the same in the air and have the same required landings. It is without question that the take off is what makes them different. Scott Hamiliton gave a demonstration on this very same subject. All the jumps revolve around the air the same way; all the jumps land on one foot and on the same back outside edge It is also the defined take-offs that place the Base Value in scoring on different jumps.

Does anyone think Scott's statement is wrong?

I for one consider the take off the most important part of a jump to differentiate from the others. I'm not against partial credit. I am all for mandatory deductions in every phase of the jump with a wrong edge takeoff as being the most serious.

If the poor skater has trouble with a take off, it is not the end of the world for them. There are so many points in CoP where a skater can make up for it by just leaving it out. It would even make for better PCS scores.

Are we in fear that we will lose too many skaters if we demand perfecrt take-offs to satisfy the differentiation between the jumps? After all it is only the take-offs that make them different.

Joe

 

[bronxgirl]

first, I would like to make it clear that I am not a skater, just someone who loves watching the sport - but it seems to me, that if the rules regarding the different take-offs were not enforced, what would be the difference in the value given to the jumps in the COP, and why have the Zayak rule? Everyone could just pick the jump they are most comfortable with and use it again and again without showing a true command of the full set of skills they are supposed to have mastered. I say - keep the skaters takeoff edges honest :yes:

 

[gsrossano]

Jumps are classified (named) by the edge they take off on and whether or not there is a tap with the other foot. For the four possible back edges, with or without tap, that is eight takeoffs.

Lutz, toeless Lutz
Flip (toe Salchow), Salchow
Loop (Rittburger), Toe loop
Walley, Toe Walley

In addition, jumps can also be described by whether they include a split, and whether there is delayed rotation.

In IJS the take off edge and tap are used to decide which values in the SoV apply (plus number of rotations). Wherever the rules talk about a "type" of jump, they mean takeoff edge and tap. But when the rules talk about "different" jumps, they also mean rotations. In counting program requirements a 2A and 3A are different jumps, but they have the same type of takeoff.

In Scott' time it was expected that jumps would all land on a specific foot, but under IJS it has been changed that any jump can be landed on either foot and count for points -- except the single loop landed on the opposite foot.

I guess, I would also add, once pulled in all jumps have essentially the same air position (except for the arm over the head), but different takeoffs can lead to different body positions during the preparation and takeoff itself. So the mechanics of the takeoffs are different for jumps of different name.

 

[GoldMedalist]

All the jumps revolve around the air the same way

Not true, imo. The speed of rotation, trajectory, and acceleration/check out of the rotations differs depending on the type of jump.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Not true, imo. The speed of rotation, trajectory, and acceleration/check out of the rotations differs depending on the type of jump.

tell that to Scott. I think you are hinting at the GoEs. I agree but not at the base value jump which I am talking about. Once a jump has been established by its definition, then give it a base value and and take off points if the jumper paused too long before toeing and add on points if he puts two arms up in the air. (Those are just examples of GoEs and that the base value is the first score.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

Lutz, toe less Lutz
Flip, Salchow (toe flip)
Loop (Rittburger), Toe loop
Walley, Toe Walley

Why is a Flip harder than a Salchow, but a Loop harder than a toe loop? (Is a toe-less Lutz even possible?)

...under IJS it has been changed that any jump can be landed on either foot and count for points...

But that's always a mistake, not just a variation, right? Deserving of negative GOE?

...The speed of rotation, trajectory, and acceleration/check out of the rotations differs depending on the type of jump.

Tell that to Scott...

This would be a cool experiment: Show an experieced figure skating judge a video of a bunch of jumps starting after the skater is already in the air. Could the judge guess what kind of jump it was by the things that Gold Medalist mentioned, without seeing the take-off?

What if you saw the jump from the beginning, all the way from the set-up, entry, launch, etc. -- but the shot did not show the skater's feet. Could you tell what kind of jump it was?

 

[ks777]

I am not a figure skater but can do the Waltz jump!!

 

[Mathman]

I am not a figure skater but can do the Waltz jump!!

:yes: :agree:

 

[gkelly]

Why is a Flip harder than a Salchow, but a Loop harder than a toe loop?

1) Toe loop and salchow require slightly less rotation than loop and flip, respectively
2) Timing

(Is a toe-less Lutz even possible?)

In theory. I don't think I've ever seen one. It would be similar to the walley (not toe walley) and would only have been done as a single.

What I have seen is double and triple salchows done from a back outside edge followed by a change of edge to back inside. (E.g., see Julia Soldatova's second triple salchow in her 1999 Worlds free program.)

Since it's not in the scale of values, it could be used as a connecting move, but it's probably too difficult to be worth the bother. Especially since changing edge by mistake would turn it into a single salchow which would use up a jump pass for almost no points, if the callers are strict. But I think I have seen some attempted walleys as connecting moves from lower-level skaters that actually came off the back outside edge that were not called as single loops.

...under IJS it has been changed that any jump can be landed on either foot and count for points...

But that's always a mistake, not just a variation, right? Deserving of negative GOE?

No, it's not always a mistake. One-foot axel (forward outside to back inside) as a connecting move or as the first jump in a combination followed by a salchow of some sort was an accepted, known jump in earlier eras. Off the top of my head, Jill Trenary (probably best known for it), Michael Slipchuk, Michael Chack, Nicole Bobek, and Krisztina Czako performed one-foot axel-triple salchow combo. Since that combo would be similar in point value under IJS to triple toe-double toe, it might be worth doing for a skater who prefers edge jumps.

At 1991 US Nationals, Chack attempted one-foot axel into quad salchow.

Mark Mitchell comes to mind as someone who used one-foot axel on its own as a connecting move. It wouldn't be worth doing currently because it would use a jump spot and only be worth 0.8 points in base value.

I have also, very rarely (i.e., 2 or 3 times total over all the years I've been watching skating), seen one-foot double salchow on its own or in combination with a regular double salchow.

Here's an example with one-foot triple salchow into double flip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANW_WhFj7Uo

 

[gkelly]

This would be a cool experiment: Show an experieced figure skating judge a video of a bunch of jumps starting after the skater is already in the air. Could the judge guess what kind of jump it was by the things that Gold Medalist mentioned, without seeing the take-off?

Kazakova and Dmitriev used to do a move where she was already off the ice in a lift and then he would throw her and she would rotate and land. There was no takeoff edge, but everyone I know thought it looked like a double salchow.

What if you saw the jump from the beginning, all the way from the set-up, entry, launch, etc. -- but the shot did not show the skater's feet. Could you tell what kind of jump it was?

Most of the time.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Jumps are classified (named) by the edge they take off on and whether or not there is a tap with the other foot. For the four possible back edges, with or without tap, that is eight takeoffs.

Lutz, toe less Lutz
Flip, Salchow (toe flip)
Loop (Rittburger), Toe loop
Walley, Toe Walley

I presume giving a jump a classification is different than giving it a definition. OK
I'm with you on the semantics. But you gotta believe Scott saying they all rotate in the air the same way, and they all land on one foot on the back outside edge. It's only the take-off that are different to fulill the requirements of the base value.

In addition, jumps can also be described by whether they include a split, and whether there is delayed rotation.

They certainly can and that is where GoEs enter the picture not the base value, unless, of course there is a separate base value for a Split Double Flip.

In IJS the take off edge and tap are used to decide which values in the SoV apply (plus number of rotations). Wherever the rules talk about a "type" of jump, they mean takeoff edge and tap. But when the rules talk about "different" jumps, they also mean rotations. In counting program requirements a 2A and 3A are different jumps, but they have the same type of takeoff.

In describing the various doubles and triples, Scott did not mention the number of air rotations, but just the basic jump which in today's terms means the basic value in scoring.

In Scott' time it was expected that jumps would all land on a specific foot, but under IJS it has been changed that any jump can be landed on either foot and count for points -- except the single loop landed on the opposite foot.

In Scott's time the Walley and Toe Wally were major scoring jumps in the 6.0 system. Now they are just part of footwork or transitions.

I guess, I would also add, once pulled in all jumps have essentially the same air position (except for the arm over the head), but different takeoffs can lead to different body positions during the preparation and takeoff itself. So the mechanics of the takeoffs are different for jumps of different name.

All very true and should be in accordance with the GoEs and not in accordance with the basic value of the jump. E.G., A salchow executed in accordance with its definition but leaned too much in the air = base value less -1 for posture.

Joe

 

[gkelly]

In Scott's time the Walley and Toe Wally were major scoring jumps in the 6.0 system. Now they are just part of footwork or transitions.

Toe walley is a major scoring jump if done as a triple or quad -- it's worth the same as a toe loop of the same number of rotations. (But more difficult, which is why most skaters just do toe loops)

Walleys with no toe assist have mostly ever only been done as singles, so not major scoring jumps at the elite levels.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Toe walley is a major scoring jump if done as a triple or quad -- it's worth the same as a toe loop of the same number of rotations. (But more difficult, which is why most skaters just do toe loops)

Walleys with no toe assist have mostly ever only been done as singles, so not major scoring jumps at the elite levels.

I've not seen a Double Walley in years! If it is still legal under the CoP, what is the base value?

Can you imagine a skater's program content saying a Triple Walley and he rocks over from the back inside edge to a back outside edge (read wrong edge take off) and lands beautifully. a GoE of -1 for WET and a higher base value than a Triple Loop jump which is what he did but we all know he ATTEMPTED the Wally. Luv it for the penalty.

Joe

 

[gkelly]

Currently walleys of any number of rotations are not listed jumps and therefore have no point value.

Double walleys are very very difficult and almost never done. Colin Vanderveen did one at 1993 US Nationals. I've heard that Jozef Sabovcik used to do them at least in practice -- not sure if he ever did in competition and if so I haven't seen any such video. That's all I've ever heard of. No triple walleys.

Because they're so difficult, there is absolutely no advantage to risking a double or triple walley for no points just because it would be a cool move.

Personally I think they should be added to the scale of values. I wouldn't expect to ever see triples, but giving points at least comparable to double axel could encourage skaters to develop the skill to do double walleys.

And if that did occur, then the takeoff edges for walley vs. loop would need to be scrutinized just as closely as for lutz vs. flip.

I do think that a lutz that changes from outside to inside edge just in the last split second or a walley that changes from inside to outside just at takeoff is more difficult than an intentional flip or loop, respectively. But it's not quite what was intended. So starting with a higher base mark and then penalizing the error seems like the most sensible approach to me.

Double or triple or quad toe walley are indeed worth doing if they're as easy or easier for the skater than double or triple or quad toe loop or if the skater can perform them with better quality. But since the base values are the same as toe loops (and they count the same as toe loops for the Zayak rule), there isn't much incentive to do them.

 

[Tinymavy15]

as an Intermidate level skater I would like to explain a little. Each jump is diffrent becasue of the takeoff, and what must happen in the first few fractions of a second as the jump becomes airborne.

The axel, toe loop and salchow technically all take off fowards (the axel more obvious than the others) and require the skater to transfer thier weight to the other side before he/she begins rotating.

the flip, lutz and loop vault up, ( athough with the loop you have to push up off the edge) and beging roatating. The jumps are usually taught in the order of axel, salchow, toe loop, loop, flip, lutz, athough of course there are many exceptions.

double jumps and esp triple jumps require a lot of pricice timing and muscle memory. Getting the feeling of getting those three rotations with all diffrent entries is the tough part becasue for each diffrent jump you have to ajust your technique becasue of diffrent body positions entering into the jumps.

 

[gsrossano]

The axel, toe loop and salchow technically all take off fowards (the axel more obvious than the others) and require the skater to transfer thier weight to the other side before he/she begins rotating.

Toe loop should not take off forward, and if it does it is a toe axel with a GOE of -1 or -2 depending on how bad it is. Salchow should not take off forward either. If I see you do that I am also going to give you a negative GoE!

Also toe loop does not transfer weight to the other side, It takes off and lands over the same edge.

 

[gsrossano]

But you gotta believe Scott saying they all rotate in the air the same way, and they all land on one foot on the back outside edge. It's only the take-off that are different to fulill the requirements of the base value.

The base value is set according to the takeoff edge and tap (or not) and number of rotations.

All jumps do not land on a back outside edge. One foot Axel lands on a back inside edge. Half-loop lands on a back inside edge. All jumps are now permitted to land on the back inside edge of the opposite foot. For example you could have a combination consisting of a double loop landed on a back inside edge of the opposite foot into a 2 Salchow. It would be scored as 2Lo+2S for BV.

In describing the various doubles and triples, Scott did not mention the number of air rotations, but just the basic jump which in today's terms means the basic value in scoring.

A 3A has a higher BV than a 2A! Of course number of rotations in part determines the BV

In Scott's time the Walley and Toe Wally were major scoring jumps in the 6.0 system. Now they are just part of footwork or transitions.

Only because the great minds at the ISU decided not to include the Walley in the SoV for jumps. I have yet to find some one who can explain to me why they did that and justify why it is a good idea!

 

[vlaurend]

Toe loop should not take off forward, and if it does it is a toe axel with a GOE of -1 or -2 depending on how bad it is. Salchow should not take off forward either. If I see you do that I am also going to give you a negative GoE!

Also toe loop does not transfer weight to the other side, It takes off and lands over the same edge.

The takeoff on the salchow and toeloop is not forward, but it is a quarter turn pre-rotated on takeoff, so it's halfway to forward. And since the picking foot is the last thing to leave the ice on a toeloop takeoff, a shift in weight from picking side to landing side is absolutely needed during the first half turn in the air, just like on the salchow or axel. For that reason, the toeloop, salchow and axel will look different in the first 180 - 360 degrees in the air than a loop, flip or lutz, where the skater takes off with weight already over the landing hip and simply pulls in for the rotation. This difference between jumps where the skater shifts weight or doesn't shift weight can be seen in Yukari Nakano's jumps. She only has the leg wrap on the jumps where there is no weight shift: lutz, flip and loop.

BTW, a toe axel is not only given -GOE, but also downgraded or given zero credit. A double toeloop with forward takeoff is downgraded to a single, and a single toeloop with forward takeoff is given zero points.

 

[gsrossano]

The takeoff on the salchow and toeloop is not forward, but it is a quarter turn pre-rotated on takeoff, so it's halfway to forward.

So you agree, saying the Salchow and toe loop take off forward is not correct, since half way to forwards is not forwards.

And then I am going to quibble with the words anyway. For the Salchow and the loop, and to a minor extent the toe loop, the takeoff edge hooks inward on a tighter lobe than the original setup to the jump. Nevertheless at the takeoff the heel of the blade points in the direction of motion along the tangent line to the edge and the takeoff is thus backwards (if done correctly). This is in contrast to a toe Axel where the skater makes a turn at the takeoff (or otherwise skids or pulls off the edge) and the the direction of motion is now forwards at the takeoff, and an error.

In describing the direction of an edge, forward and backwards is identified relative to the instantaneous tangent to the edge, not the walls in the arena. In a back outside 8, for example, you are on a backwards edge the whole time even though the motion of the skater relative to the long axis varies through every direction relative to the walls by 720 degrees.

Similarly the loop and the Salchow also often land on a tight edge which then straightens out somewhat. The trace on the ice can end up looking like the trace of a three turn with a big gap from the takeoff edge to the landing edge while the skater is in the air. For a single, the skater may well only rotate only half a turn in the air. This is the natural movement of the jump so I don't use the term pre-rotation in this context since I use that term for errors like the pre-takeoff turn in a toe Axel or skidding the takeoff on an Axel to cheat the jump.

 

[Mathman]

Nevertheless at the takeoff the heel of the blade points in the direction of motion along the tangent line to the edge and the takeoff is thus backwards (if done correctly).

I'm not sure I understand this. The blade being rigid, the heel can't fail to be along the tangent line, yes? So if a skater pre-rotated the blade 90 degrees before take-off, isn't the whole blade sideways, compared to the direction she is going through the air? Or does she actually leap in a direction 90 degrees off from her original approach direction?

(OT -- I assume a skater can't spin fast enough in the air to put a sideways curve in her flight path, like a curve ball in baseball. That would be a cool trick!)