Hope Elizaveta competes in the Olympic Team event

[Amei]

How do you know when she started working on them?

Maybe she didn't show them bacuse it is freaking difficult to jump up, spin 4 times and land?

Other guys who can do it are freaking superheroes, and even for them mistakes happen.

Below is the interview for you (link, plus the relevant section pulled out)

https://www.ifsmagazine.com/elizaveta-tuktamysheva-victorious-defeat/

Daniil Gleikhengauz told us in an interview that you, with your technical ability, potentially could have learned all quads maybe with the exception of the loop. He said you could have done it earlier, but it was not necessary. Were you motivated by the rise in technical levels in ladies’ skating?

Yes, of course. It is a necessity. That is, if you want to be in the trend, to be among the leaders of the sport, you need to develop and go for quads — to say it directly. Yes, probably Daniil is right to a certain degree, but for now I’m sticking with the quad toe loop. I’ve been working only on it to make it consistent.

I remember you said in a 2015 interview that we did — after you won your World title —you wanted to learn the quad toe, and we have waited for the quad toe.

Did I? I don’t even remember. I just tried it once as a child — just for fun. I under-rotated it about 40 percent and I fell. I was like 13 years old at the time and I had just started doing the Axel. Now it was a conscious decision of a grown up woman to realize I need to do the quad. Obviously, these are completely different feelings.

When did you seriously start working on the quad toe?

I worked on it really seriously every day after the Grand Prix in China. Ten days later I landed the first one.

 

[Amei]

Huh? why is this here?????

I imagine because right now the Olympic team based on performance appears to be Valieva, Shcherbakova and Trusova based on their age and the vaccines approved in Russia they are not vaccinated (unless they got vaccinated outside of Russia of which we are not aware). The only way for Tuktamysheva to get on the team is either injury, covid positive test or if the vaccination status becomes a problem of the 3 Olympic team members.

Based on what I've heard if an athlete is ineligible to receive a vaccine approved in their country they are exempt from having to quarantine for 21 days or being vaccinated. I believe its been said that the Russian Fed was going to do some type of camp or something in a region closer to Beijing for their Olympic delegation before heading to Beijing - my guess is they've finessed an agreement with China/IOC that the 'camp' will suffice as a quarantine period.

 

[Warwick360]

I would remind that Lilbet's back problems have nothing to do with her doing quads. It really shouldn't be that a 100 times repeated lie becomes a reality.

And I would remind you that I didn't say that quad per se was the problem. Forcing something that may not be coming naturally and when not receding when things appear to cause harm is not the right approach. You are right that we can't determine that quads were the reason. But also, we cannot rule out that pursing of the quad did not have an adverse effect either. Nor can we say that if Elizaveta had drove herself towards forcing out a quad that she'd still be here to see out the end of the season, and not be injured.

 

[flanker]

And I would remind you that I didn't say that quad per se was the problem. Forcing something that may not be coming naturally and when not receding when things appear to cause harm is not the right approach. You are right that we can't determine that quads were the reason. But also, we cannot rule out that pursing of the quad did not have an adverse effect either. Nor can we say that if Elizaveta had drove herself towards forcing out a quad that she'd still be here to see out the end of the season, and not be injured.

What's so hard to understand that the problem is Lilbet's congenial disease. That has nothing to do with the fact she's an athlete at all. That would occur no matter this fact. Yes, her back was injured (which happened in Canada BTW, as she herself reminded to the people who tried to twist that in accordance to their agenda), but the injury itself wasn't a cause of career ending per se. Just that during the therapy it trapspired that the reason why Lilbet keeps feeling the back pain was Bertolotti's syndrome. Once again, this is not caused by training, by being an athlete. It has nothing to do with that

 

[Amei]

And I would remind you that I didn't say that quad per se was the problem. Forcing something that may not be coming naturally and when not receding when things appear to cause harm is not the right approach. You are right that we can't determine that quads were the reason. But also, we cannot rule out that pursing of the quad did not have an adverse effect either. Nor can we say that if Elizaveta had drove herself towards forcing out a quad that she'd still be here to see out the end of the season, and not be injured.

She could have tried to improve her BV in other ways, Tuktamysheva historically does a lot of smaller competitions beyond the standard for top athletes, yet her and Mishin have never played around in smaller competitions to try backloading her more difficult jumps, more difficult combinations, that SEQ is terrible for points and she's done it for a long time. Perhaps she's tried more difficult layouts in practice and they haven't worked out, but considering she was able to add a second triple axel in combination to her FS and could get a quad landed in practice in 10 days I struggle to believe she's incapable of more difficult layouts by just improving her combinations or where the jumps are placed for backloading.

 

[4everchan]

She could have tried to improve her BV in other ways, Tuktamysheva historically does a lot of smaller competitions beyond the standard for top athletes, yet her and Mishin have never played around in smaller competitions to try backloading her more difficult jumps, more difficult combinations, that SEQ is terrible for points and she's done it for a long time. Perhaps she's tried more difficult layouts in practice and they haven't worked out, but considering she was able to add a second triple axel in combination to her FS and could get a quad landed in practice in 10 days I struggle to believe she's incapable of more difficult layouts by just improving her combinations or where the jumps are placed for backloading.

i trust that, as a fierce competitor, Liza has tried many options to improve her BV and what we get is what she thinks will score the highest. I agree a SEQ seems useless, and I cringe when Gabby does it as well... but then, if we take Gabby doing 3t-3t and her 3s-2a seq, it's probably because she scores higher on these then if she were to try 3lz-3t and perhaps 2a-3t or 3s-2t-2l or whatever she would need to do ... The athletes, especially in a very competitive field like Russia, do not take their layouts lightly... A lot of people have complained back then about Osmond not backloading when everyone was doing so (and as you know, before they changed the rules)... but she obviously explained that she needed to do her big combos first thing out. It was an energy thing for her as she needed a lot of power for her huge jumps...

Athletes and coaches know what they are doing... it gives us stuff to talk about, but I think that Liza has done her best to improve over the years, regaining the 3a, improving her flip, getting better +3t combos (especially for the short) even improving on her presentation. What we see is probably the best Liza can do. If it's not enough, that's not because she hasn't tried, it's because others have some better skills.

The specialist of improving BV over the years is probably Meagan Duhamel. And even then, she reached her limit... that 3a throw was just not going to work out... the quad lutz throw was working out but as the 3a throw was not successful, and they couldn't use it during the SP, the quad was throwing off her timing for the triple lutz throw which was then needed for the SP.. so what happened? They had to get rid of a quad to make sure that over both programs, all their throws were stable... she even played with the throw triple flip for a little while to see if she could somehow keep the quad lutz if she had a different set up for the short program with the flip... Athletes try a bunch of things, some in competition, some in training... I don't think there is more Liza can do there, and I am sure she's tried quads as well in practice and a bunch of different layouts...

 

[Warwick360]

She could have tried to improve her BV in other ways, Tuktamysheva historically does a lot of smaller competitions beyond the standard for top athletes, yet her and Mishin have never played around in smaller competitions to try backloading her more difficult jumps, more difficult combinations, that SEQ is terrible for points and she's done it for a long time. Perhaps she's tried more difficult layouts in practice and they haven't worked out, but considering she was able to add a second triple axel in combination to her FS and could get a quad landed in practice in 10 days I struggle to believe she's incapable of more difficult layouts by just improving her combinations or where the jumps are placed for backloading.

At this moment, I'm just glad she's managed to find consistency. Sure, I wish she could have managed to put in the standard 3-3 and a quad in, but I think for me it would be amiss to not appreciate what she's managed so far. However, I will admit, that the transitions could have been made much more detailed in the past seasons, including this one. But then again, who knows what the state of her jumps would be with such layout?

 

[Warwick360]

What's so hard to understand that the problem is Lilbet's congenial disease. That has nothing to do with the fact she's an athlete at all. That would occur no matter this fact. Yes, her back was injured (which happened in Canada BTW, as she herself reminded to the people who tried to twist that in accordance to their agenda), but the injury itself wasn't a cause of career ending per se. Just that during the therapy it trapspired that the reason why Lilbet keeps feeling the back pain was Bertolotti's syndrome. Once again, this is not caused by training, by being an athlete. It has nothing to do with that

Congenial? Or do you mean congenital? I am not denying it, nor am I just going to blindly believe what's been said in the media or in a forum. But can you guarantee me this, that this said syndrome's effect is not exacerbated by extreme stress on the backbone? A quick Google search gives me a result to the contrary.

Regardless, my argument is not one without traction here. Forcing activities can bring injury. Discount Elisabet from this context if you must, but going back to the crux of the argument I was trying to make, i.e. forcing oneself beyond one's limit CAN risk injury to sports people of any discipline. Whether we agree on this or not, I for one am glad Elizaveta has not forced herself to do something that might result in her injury.

 

[flanker]

Congenial? Or do you mean congenital? I am not denying it, nor am I just going to blindly believe what's been said in the media or in a forum. But can you guarantee me this, that this said syndrome's effect is not exacerbated by extreme stress on the backbone? A quick Google search gives me a result to the contrary.

Regardless, my argument is not one without traction here. Forcing activities can bring injury. Discount Elisabet from this context if you must, but going back to the crux of the argument I was trying to make, i.e. forcing oneself beyond one's limit CAN risk injury to sports people of any discipline. Whether we agree on this or not, I for one am glad Elizaveta has not forced herself to do something that might result in her injury.

Typing error. I would like to remind the order of incidents. First there was training, injury and therapy, and only during therapy the existence of Bertolotti's syndrome was revealed. Whether the effect is exacerbated? Probably yes. But what should follow out of that? To suspect the existence of any form of congenital disease with any given athlete? Yes, any top sport brings a risk of injury, regardless of it's kind (maybe except the chess?), what else is new under the blue sky?

What started this discussion? A statement "Some of the commenters here seem to think Quads are things that come without consequences. Just look at Elisabet Tursynbaeva. One successful quad in competition, and there goes her back, and her, to retirement."

There are athletes, of skaters to make this specific, who suffered a career-ending injury or series of injuries without even coming across the quad (Viveca Lindfors for instance, for us in my country such case is Anna Dušková). Not the matter of Lilbet doing quads, she would suffer from her disease even if she was active as an ice dancer and didn't jump at all. Ice dancers have back problems pretty often while they do not jump at all.

Should we limit the load in sport (generally, because skating can't be isolated). Maybe, but where the limit should be? And what would that bring to the sport? And how to apply that? Will everyone have a personal measuring device that would monitor his load that would forcibly stop him when he comes close to his "predestined" limit? I'm not sure I want to live in such world. Yes, people often balance at the edge of their limits and some will pay dearly for it, but while this can sound cruel and harsh, that's the basic of any progress. If people would stop risk, would stop trying to push their limits, trying to do the unknown, untested, untried, we would still live in the caves. This whole matter is truly a philosophical question with many consequences and applications. I'm not excluding responsibility from the human's life, but I can't also suppress the human spirit that forces us to improve, to compete, to achieve despite our limitations.

 

[4everchan]

which brings back the old debates.... what is healthy training?

Of course, some people have better "bodies" for the sport than others. That's a fact in all sports. So let's leave this aside for now.

There is very little point trying to limit athletes in their training... for instance, no quads in SP in juniors... what does it do? It sends a message that good triples are indeed mandatory and that a training load should be monitored. Who monitors that? The coaching team.

It is up to a coaching team to establish what is healthy for an athlete.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Shcherbakova and Trusova (because we know it won't be Valieva) both had significant errors in their programs and still outscored Tuktamysheva's best scores where Tuktamysheva was flawless. I don't think the Fed's going to say 'well I'd rather have a skater go clean and score less than have a skater have a mistake or 2 and score higher'; Trusova and to a little extent Shcherbakova might be getting considered a wild card as well, can both outscore Tuktamysheva will mistakes and they have the upside that if they go clean they would blow away Tuktamyheva's score as well as any non-Russian.

Tuktamysheva has had years to improve her technical arsenal to be more competitive with the likes of Trusova and Shcherbakova where she could get on the team on her own merits, and she has not done that - she seems to have been banking on them imploding and I think the consensus is they have not imploded to the extent to justify naming Tuktamysheva to the Olympic team over 1 of them.

Except the fact that she beat Trusova at Worlds because she had upgraded to 3 triple axels.

Also let’s not forget that Liza is 25. Would love to see Trusova or anyone’s technical arsenal at that point.

In terms of getting the highest scores makes sense to have it be all of Eteri’s girls. While they had a lot of help being propped up, it’s not like they didn’t earn it either and Liza helped them out by a subpar Nationals.

I absolutely want Liza to skate and do three triple axels in both Olympics programs instead of Trusova (who had three falls in both programs). But Trusova simply has way higher technical content and unless she pops them even a messy program is more than enough to beat any non-Russian which is really the only goal here.

 

[Warwick360]

Typing error. I would like to remind the order of incidents. First there was training, injury and therapy, and only during therapy the existence of Bertolotti's syndrome was revealed. Whether the effect is exacerbated? Probably yes. But what should follow out of that? To suspect the existence of any form of congenital disease with any given athlete? Yes, any top sport brings a risk of injury, regardless of it's kind (maybe except the chess?), what else is new under the blue sky?

What started this discussion? A statement "Some of the commenters here seem to think Quads are things that come without consequences. Just look at Elisabet Tursynbaeva. One successful quad in competition, and there goes her back, and her, to retirement."

There are athletes, of skaters to make this specific, who suffered a career-ending injury or series of injuries without even coming across the quad (Viveca Lindfors for instance, for us in my country such case is Anna Dušková). Not the matter of Lilbet doing quads, she would suffer from her disease even if she was active as an ice dancer and didn't jump at all. Ice dancers have back problems pretty often while they do not jump at all.

Should we limit the load in sport (generally, because skating can't be isolated). Maybe, but where the limit should be? And what would that bring to the sport? And how to apply that? Will everyone have a personal measuring device that would monitor his load that would forcibly stop him when he comes close to his "predestined" limit? I'm not sure I want to live in such world. Yes, people often balance at the edge of their limits and some will pay dearly for it, but while this can sound cruel and harsh, that's the basic of any progress. If people would stop risk, would stop trying to push their limits, trying to do the unknown, untested, untried, we would still live in the caves. This whole matter is truly a philosophical question with many consequences and applications. I'm not excluding responsibility from the human's life, but I can't also suppress the human spirit that forces us to improve, to compete, to achieve despite our limitations.

The discussion that started, which you seem to deflect and digress ever so effortlessly, is the matter that if it was in Tuktamysheva's possibility to do quad in a competition, there would be no doubt she'd be going for it. The underlying narrative that she didn't or wouldn't push for the technical content to increase is what is the main matter of this conversation, which I do not want to repeat ad nauseum, and which I do not agree, absolutely.

As for preventing people from doing quads? I never said that. So to further your cause, I would hope that you would be respectful enough not to bend someone's comment to your wishes/inference. I personally have no problem with quads. But should Elizaveta have pushed for it, and whether we would know any better than her? Absolutely not.

Finally, the matter of Tursynbaeva; if there's smoke, there's fire. She's not the first person to get injured badly from that camp, and she won't be the last. To excuse by saying she would have been injured regardless... If I had a back injury, my first instinct isn't to go and do a heavy weight lifting. We might differ on this matter, and personally I do not wish to invest any further on this debate, as it goes far from what this thread was made for, but yes, I don't agree that quads were a good idea for her back at all, especially when you yourself implied that her back pain was an existing problem in Canada.

 

[Arbitrary]

Yet, Liza received her Team clothes set already. Neither Scherbakova nor Trusova received anything.

 

[Amei]

Yet, Liza received her Team clothes set already. Neither Scherbakova nor Trusova received anything.

Shcherbakova and Trusova were preparing for Europeans and traveling to/from the competition, whereas Tuktamysheva did not. It makes sense that she would get clothes as a backup and have more time to get them due to her lack of competing last week. Additionally they may have different training and school schedules that have conflicted with them getting their clothes.

 

[Paulipau]

Yet, Liza received her Team clothes set already. Neither Scherbakova nor Trusova received anything.

Trusova received as well.

 

[flanker]

^^^

 

[Skater Boy]

I imagine because right now the Olympic team based on performance appears to be Valieva, Shcherbakova and Trusova based on their age and the vaccines approved in Russia they are not vaccinated (unless they got vaccinated outside of Russia of which we are not aware). The only way for Tuktamysheva to get on the team is either injury, covid positive test or if the vaccination status becomes a problem of the 3 Olympic team members.

Based on what I've heard if an athlete is ineligible to receive a vaccine approved in their country they are exempt from having to quarantine for 21 days or being vaccinated. I believe its been said that the Russian Fed was going to do some type of camp or something in a region closer to Beijing for their Olympic delegation before heading to Beijing - my guess is they've finessed an agreement with China/IOC that the 'camp' will suffice as a quarantine period.

I think RUssia might pay the price for their stupidity. No vaccination. Send them to Euros. Liza has a chance.

 

[Arbitrary]

Kolyada out, Semenenko in. Reason: health issues.
Looks like Liza's chances are 75%.

 

[Amei]

Kolyada out, Semenenko in. Reason: health issues.
Looks like Liza's chances are 75%.

Reason is a positive covid test, last check Tuktamysheva trains with Kolyada sounds like her and all other Mishin skaters need to be isolated from the rest of the team, main and alternate

 

[Arbitrary]

It's too late for Team Event, but Liza was ordered to be ready for traveling to Olympics any time soon.

Valieva's been executed. Chance for Liza.