Kamila Valieva: Anti-doping Case and Follow-ups

[Wafflecakes]

Believe me, i mean i'm serious now, that is not scientifically possible.... And if it is, you've just explained how some of todays athletes are doped - but being 'falsely' diagnosed... Or, as i think, you are just giving false information, for whatever reason you have

I can provide documentation for my claims. Can you say the same?

ADHD may be more common among elite athletes

ADHD (attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder) may be more common in elite athletes, a new research review suggests.

www.reuters.com

"Often, however, “elite athletes can’t get proper treatment and care due to lack of knowledge and stigma,” said study author Dr. Doug Hyun Han of Chung Ang University Hospital in Seoul, South Korea.

ADHD is a common brain condition that affects an estimated 3% to 7% of people worldwide, and roughly 7% to 8% of elite athletes, the review team notes. The condition can include problems with attention and impulsivity that cause difficulties in academic, work and personal relationships."


Once again though. This is all irrelevant and being used by you and other ROC apologists to distract from the actual issue at hand.

 

[Amei]

The idea that "the longer it takes to investigate the more it must be true" is bogus. If anything it means it's all messed up, unclear and not clear cut.

I think what's taking the situation so long is that the sample/test is from December and the delay in getting the results. If she was tested the very last week of December that was 6 weeks ago, how were the results not known.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Strongly disagree. There's nothing about ADHD itself that should discourage anybody from pursuing professional athletics.

There is a difference between being an athlete and being a professional top athlete in today's world. I can explain why it is not good for the later, but it will be

 

[beachmouse]

I will note that not all requests for a TUE are granted by WADA. A few cycles back, there was a man competing in the Olympics in something like luge or curling who was talking to the press about his recent treatment for testicular cancer, which had cured him but left his body unable to create testosterone normally. He asked WADA for a TUE to supplement testosterone to get him back to to a level regarded as normal for a man but WADA denied his application, saying that it was not a necessary substance for him to live his normal daily life.

 

[Wafflecakes]

I think what's taking the situation so long is that the sample/test is from December and the delay in getting the results. If she was tested the very last week of December that was 6 weeks ago, how were the results not known.

So what is your theory? That there is some big conspiracy to frame Kamila?

Occam’s Razor

You really think that is more likely than there simply being a backlog of tests including B-samples that take more time to test and sometimes come out later? In some cases tests are not released (and resulting in reversed medals) until years later.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I can provide documentation for my claims. Can you say the same?

ADHD may be more common among elite athletes

ADHD (attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder) may be more common in elite athletes, a new research review suggests.

www.reuters.com

"Often, however, “elite athletes can’t get proper treatment and care due to lack of knowledge and stigma,” said study author Dr. Doug Hyun Han of Chung Ang University Hospital in Seoul, South Korea.

ADHD is a common brain condition that affects an estimated 3% to 7% of people worldwide, and roughly 7% to 8% of elite athletes, the review team notes. The condition can include problems with attention and impulsivity that cause difficulties in academic, work and personal relationships."


Once again though. This is all irrelevant and being used by you and other ROC apologists to distract from the actual issue at hand.

I mean, you are the one who have real issues here...
About ADHD, I can tell you what I've studied about it 10 years ago in Europe, it was a condition happening to less than 1 percent in the population. Now, depending of how it is defined and from what side you are looking on it, from strictly psychological point of view it is not a condition which should be cured with medicines in majority of the cases, any kind of 'social therapy' can be the right one for the ADHD...
But the problem in todays society is that everybody is diagnosed and everybody needs a medicine. It's a social problem, not scientific one...

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Once again though. This is all irrelevant and being used by you and other ROC apologists to distract from the actual issue at hand.

Would you stop the name calling? No one is a Russian apologist because they're trying to express a balanced opinion.

 

[Wafflecakes]

I mean, you are the one who have real issues here...
About ADHD, I can tell you what I've studied about it 10 years ago in Europe, it was a condition happening to less than 1 percent in the population. Now, depending of how it is defined and from what side you are looking on it, from strictly psychological point of view it is not a condition which should be cured with medicines at all, well it wasn't back then... But the problem in todays society is that everybody is diagnosed and everybody needs a medicine. It's a social problem, not scientific one...

So the answer is no, you can't provide documentation while I can?

Wouldn't it have been easier to say that rather than typing all those lies out?

Your official position seems to be that ADHD isn't a real condition, something which no major medical board endorses and puts you well outside of the mainstream of science and medicine.

...all once again irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

 

[cheerknithanson]

I hope that the medalists from the team event to get their medals.

 

[Wafflecakes]

Would you stop the name calling? No one is a Russian apologist because they're trying to express a balanced opinion.

There is nothing "balanced" about using the red herring of bringing up ADHD as a way to justify doping.

 

[cheerknithanson]

And I feel like everything is dragging.......

 

[Baron Vladimir]

So the answer is no, you can't provide documentation while I can?

Wouldn't it have been easier to say that rather than typing all those lies out?

Your official position seems to be that ADHD isn't a real condition, something which no major medical board endorses and puts you well outside of the mainstream of science and medicine.

...all once again irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

It is not a so different condition we should deal with differently when more than 10 percent of some population have it. It is just one form of not so usual behavior in the population then. I mean, logic!

 

[Wafflecakes]

And I feel like everything is dragging.......

I can just imagine how bad this is going to get if it gets dragged out for days or weeks more.

Talk about IOC shooting itself in the foot regardless of the outcome.

This needs to end and quickly. It is undermining any trust in the IOC, ISU, and WADA with the silence and delays. Maybe my mind just isn't that creative, but I can't really imagine an actual legal issue that would need to be drawn out more than a day or two unless it is a coverup.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

There is nothing "balanced" about using the red herring of bringing up ADHD as a way to justify doping.

Your whole point is that anything on the WADA list is PROVEN to be performance-enhancing (aside from things that obviously aren't like marijuana or masking agents). There are ADHD medicines on that list also, so they are there for some reason and probably not only for recreational abuse. I suppose you could continue trying to shut down reasonable discussion by calling anyone who disagrees with you a ROC apologist, though I don't see the point of posting here if you're just going to call people names.

 

[Wafflecakes]

It is not a different condition we should deal with differently when more than 10 percent of some population have it. I mean, logic. It is just one form of usual behavior in the population then.

The medical establishment disagrees. I find it quite offensive to all people with ADHD and struggle with its effects that you feel entitled to make this claim going against the actual experts in the field.

You don't have the authority to declare that ADHD isn't a real condition, or that pro athletes can't(or shouldn't) compete if they have it. Both of which you have done repeatedly in this thread.

The people that DO have that authority have declared the opposite

 

[Wafflecakes]

Your whole point is that anything on the WADA list is PROVEN to be performance-enhancing (aside from things that obviously aren't like marijuana or masking agents). There are ADHD medicines on that list also, so they are there for some reason and probably not only for recreational abuse. I suppose you could continue trying to shut down reasonable discussion by calling anyone who disagrees with you a ROC apologist, though I don't see the point of posting here if you're just going to call people names.

That isn't my point at all.

I have said repeatedly that it DOES NOT MATTER whether it actually provides performance enhancing effects. It is still against the rules and has been declared a banned substance for athletes, and therefore is by definition doping to take it.

But if you are not going to actually bother reading my posts.... then oh well.

 

[iceskater10]

Kamila has an advantage and that advantage is that she is flat out better than her competitors. It’s that simple.

You can drug up all her competitors to high heaven and it won’t miraculously make them jump quads. That happens through hard work, good genetics and good coaching.

That’s the thing about these doping stories. People start to believe that drugs make an athlete.

You can pump me full of any drugs but I’ll never be a top athlete.

This is not addressed to Kamila, because she did nothing wrong, but to the general adult athlete: We like watching professional sports (at least I do), and watch people do amazing things. In some sports, it can’t be possible to be 100% all the time because they are still human bodies. So, I have no problem looking the other way when athletes take steps to maintain their excellence.

If we want to watch amateurs doing this, that’s one thing, but if you want to watch footballers running for 90 minutes, or tennis players at 35 having more stamina than they did at 20, or cyclists pedaling well for 3 weeks straight, then we have to let them do what they have to do.

Sorry, but I am not against drugs in pro sports. Not will I condemn such athletes.

I don’t have an issue with it being discussed.

I don’t root for counties so this has nothing to do with nationality. I’m not Russian, I’m an American.

As a sports fan, I prefer to watch athletes be great than worry about some bureaucrats that watch people pee in cups for a living and stalk people that are on vacation.

People take these anti doping hacks way too seriously and base opinions based on what they say.

Lance Armstrong, for instance, is the greatest Tour De France competitor ever. Don’t care what some pseudo agency thinks

Your well written response is one way to look at it for sure. And I respect that. Warning: there is a but coming.

The essence of sports, for me, is winning. That’s first and foremost for me. And the people that are real good also believe this. Otherwise they wouldn’t spend money beating the drug tests or getting shady TEU’s.

We just have to deal with reality. As long as there is money to be made too, there will be people willing to take it to the next step. WADA and the rest of them, just force athletes to take drug usage to the underground making it more dangerous.

I love MMA for instance. It’s naive of me to think you can fight for a living and just take legal medicines.

American football is the number 1 sport in the USA. You think anyone can do it at that level without some help? I played low level out in the park with my friends when I was a kid and the bruises after a game lasted days.

And it’s easy for me to say I would never do it since I’m nowhere near a high caliber athlete, but if drugs were the difference between barely being in a league or tens and even hundreds of millions of dollars, or extending my career a few years, and my family can be financially secure, I can’t sit here and in good conscience say I would not consider it.

So for you its ok for doping to gain an unfair advantage??? WOW

 

[TontoK]

I hope that the medalists from the team event to get their medals.

My prediction:

It will be mailed to them. They'll make sure the team medal situation isn't resolved before many of the participants have left.

No matter how this turns out, the ISU/IOC isn't going to deal with a medal ceremony where attention will be focused on who is (or is not) on the medal stand.

 

[iceskater10]

Good for her. Make that money Kamila. GOAT athletes should make GOAT money.
Go get some of that ill gotten WADA money while you’re at it. Haha

Really your post are just so crazy.

 

[alexocfp]

I don't agree with anything you say whatsoever but even accepting your premise that the essence of sport is is winning, as others have said and you have agreed with, the vast majority if not all of the banned substances can be very very dangerous when you don't need them (and indeed even if you do but in those cases the benefits of the substances would outweigh the risks). The substance in question in this case (assuming the media is correct) has many risks some of which are long term. It's not something for a healthy child or teen to take.

I suppose that an argument could be made to abolish the anti doping rules and those athletes that want to risk their long term health could do so. Again, I do not agree with this or with you whatsoever. But the argument could be made.

But I think athletes who are minor children are not qualified to make that decision and should be protected from others making that decision for them. Simply put I do not believe anyone should be allowed to drug up a 15 year old, with or without their or their parents knowledge and permission, unless the 15 year old is actually very sick. Minors should be protected from those who want to abuse their bodies and who don't actually have the minor's best interest and health in mind, but instead only have this idea that the essence of sports is winning and that they will do whatever necessary, even drug a child, to achieve it.

Separately I really have to say that if she was being given these substances it is really tragic and unbelievable. She didn't actually need them to win, so I'm not sure what was trying to be accomplished. Winning by 30 points instead of 20?

I like this post. Well said here. We agree on a few things as well.

I am not arguing that a lot of these drugs are dangerous. They certainly are. But the major ones that are used in sports are known by the participants and they are still taken. Some adults will take the risk and still choose to take them regardless. I say let them. It’s not my job to make decisions for what the athletes willingly chose to put in their bodies. People need to understand the stress they are under to perform.

Also, Wada making drug use illegal only makes people experiment with other drugs not for their intended purposes. Wada makes the drug use clandestine.

Will be safer if you offer the athlete safer drugs. Have it out on the open. Give them a safe environment to blood dope for instance.

It’s time drug use in sports comes out of the closet. It’s happening now anyway. Drugs being illegal hasn’t stopped it so let’s make it safer and out in the open.

All of the above was meant for adults that willingly choose to go the sport drug route.

Obviously, you’ll get zero argument from me regarding drugging up children without their knowledge. None whatsoever. Or someone being drugged without their knowledge as an adult. People that do that should be jailed. That’s it. Even me, that excuses almost any bad behavior, has a limit.