Kamila Valieva: Anti-doping Case and Follow-ups

[Mista Ekko]

I don't think so because she would still be DSQ which means Russia would still lose 20 points. They might still get bronze depending on how the points are redistributed but the gold would be gone. I do agree that her teammates shouldn't have their results disqualified.

The Figure skating Team event is a very strange animal and is relatively new, so there would be a lot
for their lawyers to work with, i guess it will depend on what kind of fight the other federations will put up.

 

[readernick]

I think that you don't need to collectively disqualify the team for the results to change, you only need to disqualify Valieva. Obviously, the IOC thought this result would affect the TE or they wouldn't have delayed the medal ceremony.

 

[Mista Ekko]

I think that you don't need to collectively disqualify the team for the results to change, you only need to disqualify Valieva. Obviously, the IOC thought this result would affect the TE or they wouldn't have delayed the medal ceremony.

Well, if the Canadian federation puts up a fight then the Russians will be 4th
and then what's the point?

 

[doreen95]

Well, as far as I know, it also has to be harmful to the athlete otherwise you can ban food or at least limit calories intake.
Food definitely 'increase endurance and performance', well fed athlete performs much much better than starving ones.

But reasons to ban like 'because of evidence of its use by athletes with the intention of enhancing performance' (from M. Sharapova case) ...
That is not enough. Athletes do A LOT to "enhance performance", you cannot ban something just because it has some benefits.
It also has to be harmful. According to my knowledge, harm has never been shown. At least I'm unable to find any research that shows harm.

There is no such thing as "starving athlete." Starving people do not engage in professional sport because they don't have energy to perform.

But otherwise yes, you are right, it should also be harmful.

Unfortunately, this is the case with TMZ which is a prescription-only drug in many countries (these countries have already been mentioned in this thread) and not without reason. Moreover, the usage of TMZ is contraindicated in case of children under 18 even in Russia, as the link shows:

Описание ТРИМЕТАЗИДИН показания, дозировки, противопоказания активного вещества TRIMETAZIDINE

Описание активного вещества Триметазидин - дозировки, показания, противопоказания, побочное действие

www.vidal.ru

(and I repeat myself bc I have already drawn your attention to this link)

So maybe you could start your inquires at Russian health authorities, probably the can answer you why they had insisted on this contraindication and can show you the research papers on which their decision was based.

 

[Scott512]

Whatever the final decision is, I (and I suspect many others) will never look at figure skating the same. I can’t help but think back on all past results and wonder if the participants were clean. Were underage athletes being doped. Where does the sport go from here?

You know I forgot about that suspension from 2000 or never even knew about it.

I'm worried about having KV's career saved at this point and that would be annoying to 12 months suspension. Anything more would be twice as devastating.

 

[starlight97]

Whatever the final decision is, I (and I suspect many others) will never look at figure skating the same. I can’t help but think back on all past results and wonder if the participants were clean. Were underage athletes being doped. Where does the sport go from here?

Has this truly come as a surprise to you? Or to anybody here for that matter? Sincere question.

If so I'm shocked to hear it. We never had any evidence or precise idea of substances or regimes, but I thought it was common knowledge that there is a very real probability that Russian athletes are still being doped + Eteri's training methods specifically have been pointed out to be extreme for almost a decade with several documentaries and interviews showing it + the "unreal" or "superhuman" abilities of her girls to withstand her methods and deliver what they do have fascinated us for 2 Olympic cycles.
I think many people could logically deduce that sth "special" could very well be going on there.

I'm not saying the girls' abilities or her school's success are all thanks to doping, not at all. It's a mix of several things, including a Soviet mindset regarding children and their handling, state funding and promotion of the sport, a finely tuned machinery that they have worked out over the years, long and hard hours, submissive parents and incredibly talented and success driven girls. And between all of these extreme methods, giving them some low-dose, semi-legal, grey-zone medication to squeeze out the last 0.5%, does not seem surprising.

 

[Fanof]

I wanted to create a seperate post for this in one of the articles I linked to before.

Affaire Valieva : qu'est-ce que la trimétazidine et que risque la patineuse après son test antidopage positif ?

Star annoncée des JO de Pékin, la jeune patineuse russe Kamila Valieva se retrouve au coeur d'une retentissante affaire de dopage après avoir été contrôlée positive à la trimétazidine, puis blanchie par sa propre...

www.midilibre.fr

According to this lawyer, the ISU only allows for collective disqualification for failing a drug test at that competition.

Whether the Russian team is disqualified or KV's scores only are nullified (hence, minus 20 for the Russian team, plus 2 for the Canadian team), the Russian team will be off the podium in either case, I believe.

 

[Scott512]

Whatever the final decision is, I (and I suspect many others) will never look at figure skating the same. I can’t help but think back on all past results and wonder if the participants were clean. Were underage athletes being doped. Where does the sport go from here?

I don't think you will say much of this at all and figure skating in the future it's actually it's quite weird rare. I am sure what is happening to KV will scare future skaters off all over the world from even thinking about trying something. Hopefully it will scare the adults around them too. But let's not think figure skating is like weight lifting or track and field when it comes to positive tests.

 

[silveruskate]

Unless they can prove she is still benefitting from the effects of the drug of 25/12 don't direct your fury at her judges. All fire and brimstone for the others but not her. Let her compete!

 

[readernick]

Whatever the final decision is, I (and I suspect many others) will never look at figure skating the same. I can’t help but think back on all past results and wonder if the participants were clean. Were underage athletes being doped. Where does the sport go from here?

Sad isn't it. I don't think I even want to watch the women's event. Women's was already my least favorite discipline but this is making me question my favorite discipline pairs, too.

 

[doreen95]

Sure but they are free to cherry pick research. And in before 2015 there are not so many research papers at all.

This is a very strong argument. To prove it you have to collect all research papers published so far, create 2 groups of them (Group 1: used by Wada; Group2: not used by Wada) and prove convincingly that the findings of research paper in Group 1 are significantly different from the findings of the papers of Group 2.

"And in before 2015 there are not so many research papers at all" into what?
"And in before 2015 there are not so many research papers at all" Any evidence?

 

[silveruskate]

I think that you don't need to collectively disqualify the team for the results to change, you only need to disqualify Valieva. Obviously, the IOC thought this result would affect the TE or they wouldn't have delayed the medal ceremony.

This confuses me. I wonder why they didn't have the medal ceremony on the day the Team Event concluded. The positive result was only found on the 8th and the event concluded on the 7th with men's SP starting on the 8th. It is really fishy.

 

[readernick]

This confuses me. I wonder why they didn't have the medal ceremony on the day the Team Event concluded. The positive result was only found on the 8th and the event concluded on the 7th with men's SP starting on the 8th. It is really fishy.

It was scheduled that way. Several sports are given medals at one time. It happens all the time, in all Olympics so I'm not sure why it's "fishy."

 

[silveruskate]

It was scheduled that way. Several sports are given medals at one time. It happens all the time, in all Olympics so I'm not sure why it's "fishy."

To me it is strange. Since the men were given their medals on the 10th. And the Men's SP was starting the next day after the Team Event. It just makes no sense. And the IOC withholding the medals I have no idea if that has any precedent either. At least Japan and the US could have had their medal moment..

 

[yume]

Whatever the final decision is, I (and I suspect many others) will never look at figure skating the same. I can’t help but think back on all past results and wonder if the participants were clean. Were underage athletes being doped. Where does the sport go from here?

If Valieva compete i wouldn't even be that mad. Others escape suspensions in shadow. This will just be another way to escape suspension, in front of cameras. I don't think that all the other skaters who are competing never got something in their systems. They just never got caught.
They are some athletic performances imo that are difficult to achieve without a bit of help. And there are athletes who are allowed to take those banned substance for "health conditions". Even if the health conditions are real, how do we know if they don't get an unfair advantage over their competitors?

Well, I had a suspicion that something is inherently rotten in WADA but have no idea to what extent.
Just read WADA code:

Any 2 from a list of 3, where 1 of 3 is 'determination'.
So, basically to add anything to prohibited list they need
'Medical or other scientific evidence, pharmacological effect or experience' that something (substance of method) may(in theory) help
AND
Their own 'determination' that use of 'method' 'violates spirit of sport'. Basically purely subjective opinion that something 'is a sin'.

F.e. listening to music, massage even sex can be defined as doping as soon as ppl in WADA have 'determination' that it's a sin.
And all of these things I mentioned above definitely 'has a potential to enhance', from my experience.

Actually for me WADA 'doping' and 'prohibited list' completely lost any credibility.
Basically it is a list of things that 'potentially can improve performance' and some guys think that it's a sin, nothing more.

I always an issue with those organizations who are in charge to say what is bad and what is good. Honestly, i don't see a difference between Caster Semenya and Michael Phelps' genetics which give them a natural advantage over their competitors. They are born like that. But Caster was suspended (and told she has to take some drugs to be "normal") while Michael was free to compete without changing anything.

 

[AquaSeas]

Has this truly come as a surprise to you? Or to anybody here for that matter? Sincere question.

If so I'm shocked to hear it. We never had any evidence or precise idea of substances or regimes, but I thought it was common knowledge that there is a very real probability that Russian athletes are still being doped + Eteri's training methods specifically have been pointed out to be extreme for almost a decade with several documentaries and interviews showing it + the "unreal" or "superhuman" abilities of her girls to withstand her methods and deliver what they do have fascinated us for 2 Olympic cycles.
I think many people could logically deduce that sth "special" could very well be going on there.

I'm not saying the girls' abilities or her school's success are all thanks to doping, not at all. It's a mix of several things, including a Soviet mindset regarding children and their handling, state funding and promotion of the sport, a finely tuned machinery that they have worked out over the years, long and hard hours, submissive parents and incredibly talented and success driven girls. And between all of these extreme methods, giving them some low-dose, semi-legal, grey-zone medication to squeeze out the last 0.5%, does not seem surprising.

I guess I’ve been pretty naive about figure skating. Shouldn’t be as I lived thru the 1976 Olympics with the East German swimming/doping horror show... but I never gave much credence to the rumours of doping in figure skating. I suppose I assumed the Russian girls were just trained so much harder than everybody else. I did worry about their health and long term longevity in the sport.

 

[Zora]

The cynic in me says nothing will come of this - a minor suspension after the games, Kamila competes for now, the team gold remains, six months from now the ban is lifted on Russian athletes not being able to technically compete as Russian athletes and things will go on as before and before that. Sambo or whatever it's called will also go on as before.

I think so, too. Tutberidze was too confident this is just a formality. And afterwards they will say someone tried to sabotage Kamila and she won fair and square in spite of all the trouble.

 

[doreen95]

I'm not saying the girls' abilities or her school's success are all thanks to doping, not at all. It's a mix of several things, including a Soviet mindset regarding children and their handling, state funding and promotion of the sport, a finely tuned machinery that they have worked out over the years, long and hard hours, submissive parents and incredibly talented and success driven girls. And between all of these extreme methods, giving them some low-dose, semi-legal, grey-zone medication to squeeze out the last 0.5%, does not seem surprising.

Great summary, thank you for it!

 

[silveruskate]

In other bittersweet news Kamila gained around 170k Instagram followers so far since the scandal and she is at almost 500k. 267k in the past 30 days.

 

[Fanof]

If Valieva compete i wouldn't even be that mad.

Hopefully it won't happen. Unless there is some good, yet undisclosed, reason why the sample was tainted, it would be a disgrace.

Others escape suspensions in shadow. This will just be another way to escape suspension, in front of cameras. I don't think that all the other skaters who are competing never got something in their systems. They just never got caught.

Innocent until proven otherwise. That's how it works. And I can't see any better solution (or you make doping legit, but that's another story).