Kamila Valieva: Anti-doping Case and Follow-ups

[cisum88note]

It's not that WADA is automatically right. WADA has put forward its arguments for reinstating the provisional ban, and yet the CAS judges considered it justified not to revoke the ban.

The CAS judges are also not a couple of idiots who are not familiar with the application of law, but specialized in interpreting guidelines and laws such as the WADA code. Perhaps later it will be found that the decision could have been different, but there is no reason to believe that the judges did not try to make the right decision given the limited time and the very complex facts of the case.

There is reason. 1) WADA released a public statement saying that CAS ruling was not based on WADA's code, as claimed. 2) the IOC is so sure the positive doping test is an unfair competition standard that they refuse to hand out medals or even have a flower ceremony because it would not be fair to the other competitors.

CAS's ruling was not on the merits but only that it would cause 'irreparable harm" to a "protected person" to not compete. That's a subjective call that has never been extended to other minors and is not codified in WADA codes. Again, if you're not familiar with international arbitration and haven't read these public documents, I'm not sure on what basis you're making claims that the reasoning was justified on "application of law," which doesn't even exist in this case.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

If you've read the decision and WADA's response, WADA is claiming CAS made up a legal exception that is not written in the WADA rules and has never been implemented before. I would encourage commenters to actually look at the legal decisions and analysis or refrain from posting "there must have been a legal ground" if you aren't actually familiar with the legal reasoning in the public decision and WADA's public response.

WADA didn't hear Kamila testimony before they've charged her. The timestamps of the event is - 1) RUSSADA charged Kamile for the 'unlegal' substance 2) next day they heard her testimony and decided to annul the charges 3) WADA charges her based only on the test results (the same as RUSSADA before them) 4) she gave a testimony to CAS because of the WADA charges and they annul the charges too, for now

 

[invisiblespiral]

Historical question: have there been other minors prosecuted for doping violations, and what exactly were their sentences, if there were any?

 

[matin calin]

but as a lab scientist, with the trace elements in this particular medication, that is not correct.

Ok if the half-life of TMZ is about 4-5 hours would that mean that Kamila had received TMZ max 10 hours prior to the testing? In other words, the day before the testing at RusNats.
While I cannot rule out that TeamTut do use "something" to enhance the girls' performance I find it highly unlikely that they would give TMZ, a drug they know is banned, right before the doping test, it just does not make any sense to me, it's plain bizarre. That's just equal to going out public and saying "hey we use doping". They must have known it would inevitably be detected. And why would their risk their all for .... what? TMZ is meant to be used systematically, it is not a sort of medication that would give you an instant advantage (like for example asthma medicine in skiing or running) so the benefit for her performance would be, I assume, marginal.

I don't know what i find less plausible, the grandfather with a heart transplant version or this. If the grandpa version is dismissed on the grounds of its low probability, why is the "main" version accepted without any criticism?

 

[cisum88note]

WADA didn't hear Kamila testimony before they've charged her. The timestamps of the event is - 1) RUSSADA charged Kamile for the 'unlegal' substance 2) next day they heard her testimony and decided to annul the charges 3) WADA charges her based only on the test results (without knowing her testimony) 4) she gave a testimony to CAS because of the WADA charges and they annul the charges too

CAS and WADA absolutely did not "annul the charges."

WADA acts on whether there is a positive test and gives recommendations about suspension to the federations who are supposed to apply the rules. Positive test. Ban. Period. It was RUSADA who chose to circumvent the WADA guidelines and CAS who pushed the merits down the road and decided to let her compete in the interim, despite the positive test.

 

[yelyoh]

She deserves the defense because she's been slaughtered internationally and nobody says a thing except us.

And the Western media drives a lot of this.

I willl be interested to see how KV reacts to to all the controversy in her short program performance. I am not expecting Europeans type dominance from her.

She will skate as always; it will not affect her one bit. This is neither supportive of her or hopeful on my part. Frankly while before I was in awe of the threesome, I am no longer an admirer of theirs or their coaching team. Kamila is going to be 16 in a couple of months. Will she suddenly not be a minor to be protected at all costs because of her emotional fragility? Kamila is not a child; she's a teenager. She's less than a year younger than Alysa Liu. This sets a horrible precedent and the only solution to this protection clause is to raise the age of Oly and World competitions to 16 and be done with it.

 

[silveruskate]

There are no other cases like this of Protected Persons to compare. The lab situation is enough to lift the provisional suspension anyways. In the end WADA always goes for maximum punishment and they were left embarrassed by their incompetence so sure they will be upset.

Somehow "the judge/mediator is only right when he agrees with me" nowadays. If the full case file was seen and disputed then fair enough but the amount of blind confidence - I would say arrogance - when we didn't even see the hearing or have close the information they have.

 

[el henry]

It says I don't have permission to read it on this server.

From a much longer article, not concentrating on Alysa or her father, just quoting them:

“If that's their choice, I guess that's the right one,” 16-year-old Alysa Liu, who will perform just before Valieva on Tuesday night and is the best hope for an American medal in the women's competition, said upon learning of the CAS decision.

Her father, Arthur Liu, was not as diplomatic.
“She tested positive for a banned drug. What's not clear about it?” he said to The Associated Press. "She should be out. That is as simple as that. What kind of message are they sending to millions of young boys and girls in sports — particularly figure skaters? That cheaters are allowed to compete in the Olympics, the holiest competition on the planet.
“It totally destroys the Olympic spirit.”


ETA: the original article:
https://www.11alive.com/article/spo...dium/507-1c4bb17a-f552-494d-aeb3-895089e00b1e

 

[silveruskate]

Historical question: have there been other minors prosecuted for doping violations, and what exactly were their sentences, if there were any?

Only a 15 year old footballer that I know of who possessed a pen with PED drug inside. 9 month ban.

 

[Draculus]

I don't know know who in "former threads" is "explaining" about doping, but as a lab scientist, with the trace elements in this particular medication, that is not correct. People have a right to be suspicious because, as I also noted, the explanation that she drank from the same glass as her grandfather is a scientifically impossible explanation for having these trace substances in her system.

This medication has a half life of 4-7 hours and would be gone in approximately a day.

And this is the same person writing...

 

[Baron Vladimir]

CAS and WADA absolutely did not "annul the charges."

WADA acts on whether there is a positive test and gives recommendations about suspension to the federations who are supposed to apply the rules. Positive test. Ban. Period. It was RUSADA who chose to circumvent the WADA guidelines and CAS who pushed the merits down the road and decided to let her compete in the interim, despite the positive test.

Again, that is not a common sense. People have a right to defend against any charges. Or we should have another Jessica Calalang situation here

 

[iceskater10]

Trimetazidine exists in tablets form too, not only in capsules. And if dosage is f.e. 1/2 tablet (or 3/2) - then usually ppl break tablet in half before ingest it, thus glass can be easily contaminated. No clue about concentration and detection sensitivity.

Oh please give it a rest..

 

[Lechat]

Ok if the half-life of TMZ is about 4-5 hours would that mean that Kamila had received TMZ max 10 hours prior to the testing? In other words, the day before the testing at RusNats.
While I cannot rule out that TeamTut do use "something" to enhance the girls' performance I find it highly unlikely that they would give TMZ, a drug they know is banned, right before the doping test, it just does not make any sense to me, it's plain bizarre. That's just equal to going out public and saying "hey we use doping". They must have known it would inevitably be detected. And why would their risk their all for .... what? TMZ is meant to be used systematically, it is not a sort of medication that would give you an instant advantage (like for example asthma medicine in skiing or running) so the benefit for her performance would be, I assume, marginal.

I don't know what i find less plausible, the grandfather with a heart transplant version or this. If the grandpa version is dismissed on the grounds of its low probability, why is the "main" version accepted without any criticism?

Like I said other substances can be mistaken for the drug.
Some people have been tested positive for eating food, from using a toothpaste or kissing their bf or girlfriend. I doubt Kami has a bf but I’m not throwing stones without knowing all the circumstances

 

[Amei]

From a much longer article, not concentrating on Alysa or her father, just quoting them:

“If that's their choice, I guess that's the right one,” 16-year-old Alysa Liu, who will perform just before Valieva on Tuesday night and is the best hope for an American medal in the women's competition, said upon learning of the CAS decision.

Her father, Arthur Liu, was not as diplomatic.
“She tested positive for a banned drug. What's not clear about it?” he said to The Associated Press. "She should be out. That is as simple as that. What kind of message are they sending to millions of young boys and girls in sports — particularly figure skaters? That cheaters are allowed to compete in the Olympics, the holiest competition on the planet.
“It totally destroys the Olympic spirit.”

i

Applaud Alysa's diplomatic answer there.

 

[skatedreamer]

The story of the drinking glass is beyond belief. I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out to have been manufactured by ET and the doctors to deflect suspicion from themselves. After all, why should they take the fall for this?

 

[cisum88note]

Ok if the half-life of TMZ is about 4-5 hours would that mean that Kamila had received TMZ max 10 hours prior to the testing? In other words, the day before the testing at RusNats.
While I cannot rule out that TeamTut do use "something" to enhance the girls' performance I find it highly unlikely that they would give TMZ, a drug they know is banned, right before the doping test, it just does not make any sense to me, it's plain bizarre. That's just equal to going out public and saying "hey we use doping". They must have known it would inevitably be detected. And why would their risk their all for .... what? TMZ is meant to be used systematically, it is not a sort of medication that would give you an instant advantage (like for example asthma medicine in skiing or running) so the benefit for her performance would be, I assume, marginal.

I don't know what i find less plausible, the grandfather with a heart transplant version or this. If the grandpa version is dismissed on the grounds of its low probability, why is the "main" version accepted without any criticism?

A half life is only the diminishing of the concentration of a substance by half the of the original amount. Based on the substance, the levels needed for detection vary. For TMZ, as found in the most common form, detectable levels would be out of the system in approximately 24 hours (3-4 half life cycles). These could be affected by dose and concentration based on weight and food consumed as well. If there is chronic consumption of the substance, detectable levels could also linger longer. Although considering prior and subsequent clean tests, it's more likely this substance was administered on an ad hoc basis, probably more during training and tapering off prior to competitions.

 

[silveruskate]

From a much longer article, not concentrating on Alysa or her father, just quoting them:

“If that's their choice, I guess that's the right one,” 16-year-old Alysa Liu, who will perform just before Valieva on Tuesday night and is the best hope for an American medal in the women's competition, said upon learning of the CAS decision.

Her father, Arthur Liu, was not as diplomatic.
“She tested positive for a banned drug. What's not clear about it?” he said to The Associated Press. "She should be out. That is as simple as that. What kind of message are they sending to millions of young boys and girls in sports — particularly figure skaters? That cheaters are allowed to compete in the Olympics, the holiest competition on the planet.
“It totally destroys the Olympic spirit.”

i

Alysa is very mature as an athlete and only focusing on herself and what she needs to do for now. Fantastic! It's to be admired. I bet skaters like Kaori and Alysa will perform much much better than Wakaba who is getting herself butt-hurt by this situation and distracting her mental state.

 

[Elana]

Ok if the half-life of TMZ is about 4-5 hours would that mean that Kamila had received TMZ max 10 hours prior to the testing? In other words, the day before the testing at RusNats.
While I cannot rule out that TeamTut do use "something" to enhance the girls' performance I find it highly unlikely that they would give TMZ, a drug they know is banned, right before the doping test, it just does not make any sense to me, it's plain bizarre. That's just equal to going out public and saying "hey we use doping". They must have known it would inevitably be detected. And why would their risk their all for .... what? TMZ is meant to be used systematically, it is not a sort of medication that would give you an instant advantage (like for example asthma medicine in skiing or running) so the benefit for her performance would be, I assume, marginal.

I don't know what i find less plausible, the grandfather with a heart transplant version or this. If the grandpa version is dismissed on the grounds of its low probability, why is the "main" version accepted without any criticism?

I know someone else commented on half-lives on this same page, but it seems that some of you don't understand what they are...

It's not that half the substance is gone after one half-life and then the other half is gone after another half-life as you are implying here with 10 hours. One half-life is the time it takes for the concentration of the substance (TMZ) to decrease in the body by half. This is an exponential equation here, its not so simple as divide by 2. So after 5 hours in this case, half of the starting concentration of TMZ would remain, then in the next five hours (the second half-life), the existing concentration is once again reduced in half. Many more half-lives will continue to take place with the whatever the current concentration in the body continuously reducing by half every 5 hours. We don't know her starting concentration of TMZ, therefore we cannot say how many half-lives occurred to bring it to the concentration detected in the test, and we also cannot say when she took it based off of the information we have.

 

[el henry]

Again, that is not a common sense. People have a right to defend. Or we should have another Jessica Calalang situation here

It is completely common sense. There is NO right to an entire hearing before a suspension. It might but easier, but simply not true and actually boring to keep repeating that an athlete is somehow entitled to a full blown hearing, either legally or "morally".

Unless of course the concerns of the athletes competing with one who has ingested banned substances do not factor into the moral or legal equation.

They factor into mine.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

The story of the drinking glass is beyond belief. I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out to have been manufactured by ET and the doctors to deflect suspicion from themselves. After all, why should they take the fall for this?

If Jessica Calalang lip balm story is possible, and in fact it literally happened, why any other similar story would not be