Kamila Valieva: Anti-doping Case and Follow-ups

[Skater Boy]

How old would Kamila have had to be to not considered a minor? It differs in many countries and not sure how the IOC considers it. Her birthday is April 26... so were she 3 months older, and 16, the decision would have been different?

The other issue is did she have intent or knowledge about the drug. In he justice system in many countries you must have knowledge or intent. So if someone put something in your drink you may not have intent. Everyone suffers here. I rather doubt Kamila will do that well considering all. She is 15 all that pressure and with personalities like Eteri around her = yikes.

 

[matin calin]

But if you are aware of the law, in a strict liability system such as WADA, the test is sufficient. There is no mens rea requirement, which was the original proposition. I say again, as far as I can tell, motivation is not relevant.

I did not mean the actual legal procedure, I am sure all matters will be taken care of appropriately in CAS or elsewhere.

I was talking about discussions here on GS, social media and so on. Just what regular people bring up in their discussions, as well skaters that now rush to take the stand to express their disgust with the Russian team. Why does no one question what pushed Eteri to give a banned substance with questionable efficacy to her best olympic bet shortly before the doping test? Why no one says, wait a second, why would they put so much at risk? Why would they mess up like this? Is this thing probable? Is that thing logical? Do they add up? You know, the usual critical discussion. I just don't see much of that.

 

[Mathman]

That grandpa thing was just a joke, right? Making fun of all the wild impossible scenarios that we can concoct?

 

[Imagine]

Kamila, sweetie, the drinking-from-Grandpa's-cup defense is really just...not it . I get that none of this is likely her own fault, but at this point she really would be better off if she just bombed the competition or caught covid or something. The low-intelligence mob is going to skewer her if she gets anywhere near that Faux-lympic podium.

 

[iceskater10]

There was no banned drug.
He introduced a legal drug into the body in an acceptable dosage in a non-standard way (intravenously).
And then when they discovered medical waste, at first they thought that he was transfusing the rowers with blood.

Wow? really

 

[iceskater10]

Actually, the whole granpa story can be kind of verified and without too much difficulties.
Time passed till actual test is know, concentration in the sample in known (lab measured metabolites, so it can be calculated).
Age, gender, mass, other relevant things are also known (or can be measured if something like blood pH is required to very high precision or I do not know what is important here).

If she drinks from that glass, so she can say how much she drank (let's say 2 sips) - so amount of water with supposed TMZ is also known.
If her grandpa really has heart problems (can be verified via his doctor) and he takes TMZ (probably by doctor prescription, which can be verified) or by pharmacy checks or whatever. And he also can say how much water he drank.

So at the end we have required concentration of TMZ that has to be in that water. If that is possible to achieve f.e. by taking broken pill in the mouth and taking specified amount of sips from that glass, I can believe her. Quite low chances that all numbers fit just randomly.

OMG

 

[el henry]

I did not mean the actual legal procedure, I am sure all matters will be taken care of appropriately in CAS or elsewhere.

I was talking about discussions here on GS, social media and so on. Just what regular people bring up in their discussions, as well skaters that now rush to take the stand to express their disgust with the Russian team. Why does no one question what pushed Eteri to give a banned substance with questionable efficacy to her best olympic bet shortly before the doping test? Why no one says, wait a second, why would they put so much at risk? Why would they mess up like this? Is this thing probable? Is that thing logical? Do they add up? You know, the usual critical discussion. I just don't see much of that.

I understand now.

That is a different issue, and one I do not care to opine on. I have no idea why anyone would take any illegal substance, shiny gold is not worth it. But whether Kamila tested positive for a banned substance does not require that analysis.

And that is, for me, an unfair comment about other skaters. Let's posit that I am a skater, I do everything and anything in my power not to ingest illegal substances, I have every right to be upset if someone who did is competing.

I am under no duty, moral or legal, to determine their motives to support my justifiable upset.

 

[Magill]

The one thing I'm shocked by is that Russia sent samples over to the lab that someone on Eteri's team would have known had a possibility to come back positive. Were there non-Russian WADA representatives collecting these at Russian Nationals? This would be the one event where I'd expect samples to be swapped out if there were doping issues.

Actually, the whole granpa story can be kind of verified and without too much difficulties.
Time passed till actual test is know, concentration in the sample in known (lab measured metabolites, so it can be calculated).
Age, gender, mass, other relevant things are also known (or can be measured if something like blood pH is required to very high precision or I do not know what is important here).

If she drinks from that glass, so she can say how much she drank (let's say 2 sips) - so amount of water with supposed TMZ is also known.
If her grandpa really has heart problems (can be verified via his doctor) and he takes TMZ (probably by doctor prescription, which can be verified) or by pharmacy checks or whatever. And he also can say how much water he drank.

So at the end we have required concentration of TMZ that has to be in that water. If that is possible to achieve f.e. by taking broken pill in the mouth and taking specified amount of sips from that glass, I can believe her. Quite low chances that all numbers fit just randomly.

I wonder if grandpa is also cared for by Dr Snape? Then he will probably come up with any treatment history and prescription that you want...

 

[mskater93]

She has been brutalized like she's some kind of a violent criminal. I understand people's passions both ways. But the treatment of this minor girl for something she is not responsible for is disgraceful. Unless the investigations prove that KV knew she was getting a banned substance she skates. Literally.

Being a minor has saved her from major IOC discipline.

I have seen very little castigation of the girl. The system? Yes. The chicken heartedness of IOC/WADA/ISU to take a stand? Absolutely. Most see Valieva as a victim who will become collateral damage

 

[silveruskate]

I am aware of the law

But your examples are not analogous. Kamila's positive test is not due to a medical condition. If she can prove the incredibly strained theory about her grandfather (does her team not realize that people are laughing at them because of this story?) then yes, it could possibly be a defense to a DUI, much like the fermented milk.

But if you are aware of the law, in a strict liability system such as WADA, the test is sufficient. There is no mens rea requirement, which was the original proposition. I say again, as far as I can tell, motivation is not relevant.

But this is just not true on sanctioning. Raducan had no sentence because she was given Sudafed and they didn't know, tennis player Yastremska acquitted with no fault found because she had sex with her boyfriend. Motivation IS relevant. In the rules themselves if intent is likely you get at least 4 years straight away.

I think you are thinking of an ADRV - Anti Doping Rules Violation. The fact of a violation having occurred is strict liability. Nothing will wash away the fact that it occurred. But that is just semantics when the thing that matters i.e. *sanctions* is heavily affected by motive/intent.

 

[skatemd1]

I'm focused on the basics here: First, as any team physician can tell you, there is a clearly defined list of prohibited substances and Trimetazidine is on that list. Second, most high-level athletes are well aware of this list and, if they live in a country that strictly enforces anti-doping policies, they know they will be subject to rigorous random testing, so they are all conditioned to seek guidance from their federations on any medications or supplements they are taking. Third, Kamila's sample showed she took a prohibited performance-enhancing substance, though we don't yet know all the circumstances surrounding it. So she bears some responsibility here although, as a minor, she also deserves some leniency. I can see how allowing her to compete while withholding medals could be the right call for now, but this cannot be the end of this story. We need a full investigation so we can hold her doctors, coaching team, her federation, and any of the other adults around her fully accountable if they were engaged in any wrong-doing. Because the Russian federation is a serial offender when it comes to doping (which is well documented), there is zero room for leniency in their case. A message needs to be sent that it is not OK to cheat (unlike the last time they were caught, where precisely the opposite message was sent). If that means lifetime bans on physicians or coaches, or a complete ban on international competition for a year (or the next quad) for an entire federation, then so be it.

 

[Tavi...]

I don't want to go into legal details, but theft and robbery belong to a different category of crimes. A crime that would be similar to the doping situation would be driving under influence. In this case a person can be acquitted if it is established that their blood alcohol levels were positive due to a medical condition (like diabetes), or a person consumed something which he or she did not know contains alcohol, which is the case with some dairy products due to fermentation.

Since el Henry is a seasoned litigator, I really doubt she needs a primer on motivation or distinguishing between categories of crimes and how they are or are not relevant here.

 

[Amei]

But this is just not true on sanctioning. Raducan had no sentence because she was given Sudafed and they didn't know, tennis player Yastremska acquitted with no fault found because she had sex with her boyfriend. Motivation IS relevant. In the rules themselves if intent is likely you get at least 4 years straight away.

I think you are thinking of an ADRV - Anti Doping Rules Violation. The fact of a violation having occurred is strict liability. Nothing will wash away the fact that it occurred. But that is just semantics when the thing that matters i.e. *sanctions* is heavily affected by motive/intent.

Well I don't know about the tennis player but Raducan, they didn't reinstate her OGM even though they found it was an accident on her part

 

[bigsisjiejie]

A half life is only the diminishing of the concentration of a substance by half the of the original amount. Based on the substance, the levels needed for detection vary. For TMZ, as found in the most common form, detectable levels would be out of the system in approximately 24 hours (3-4 half life cycles). These could be affected by dose and concentration based on weight and food consumed as well. If there is chronic consumption of the substance, detectable levels could also linger longer. Although considering prior and subsequent clean tests, it's more likely this substance was administered on an ad hoc basis, probably more during training and tapering off prior to competitions.

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this already, but TMZ comes in an extended release version, which certainly would affect the peak- and steady-state concentration levels. I'm inclined to think your last sentence is correct, except I think the drug was given more regularly vs ad hoc. And someone at TT screwed up with the timing of tapering off.

 

[matin calin]

have every right to be upset if someone who did is competing.

I am under no duty, moral or legal, to determine their motives to support my justifiable upset.

Being upset, absolutely. Going out public with condemnation after CAS ruling that allowed Kamila to skate - I am not sure. Do they really have to, for instance people like Johnny Weir and Yuna Kim? Isn't it a bit early for the radical statements? Why don't they concede for a second that CAS could, in fact, have some valid unannounced reasons to take that decision except for Kamila being under 16 - it should not take 7 hours to establish her age, right? I am sure other circumstances were discussed and considered, circumstances that no upset skater knows about, presumably.

 

[Greengemmonster]

So if the Russians didn't compete, Bradie would settle for a place behind the Japanese and wouldn't try to beat them? If she wasn't satisfied with that, nothing would change for her. What kind of weird logic is that?

The logic here is that she tried to learn a 3A and injured herself. I'm purely speculating here but consider a situation where she sees the Russians sailing in and out of quads and 3As. Maybe she thought to herself "If I worked harder, if I tried harder, if I pushed myself more, I can do it too".

Now she finds out that well there may be a little pharmaceutical help in play.

She COULD compete with the Japanese. Besides Rika and the Russians Bradie was giving all the other ladies a run for their money.

Everyone should compete. Just that everyone should compete clean. In this situation how do you know that the person who beat you was more talented and worked harder or they had help that you didn't have?

If some of us who can barely shuffle on ice (me!!!!!) are having so much trouble processing this, how can it be easy for an athlete like Bradie to choke this down?

 

[silveruskate]

Well I don't know about the tennis player but Raducan, they didn't reinstate her OGM even though they found it was an accident on her part

They were very lenient with her. Just to admit it's an accident and ok you can compete. Sudafed lists pseudoephedrine in the packaging. She was even 16 so her coach giving it to her wouldn't be seen as a good excuse according to the rules. Only difference is everybody saw her as a little girl deserving sympathy so there was zero ban. And the only thing they did is remove the medal for when the drug actually was still in her system but she kept all the others she earned during the games.

 

[Draculus]

I wonder if grandpa is also cared for by Dr Snape? Then he will probably come up with any treatment history and prescription that you want...

I really doubt that Dr Snape is cardiologist.
No, for me to believe in this story all parts have to look 'normal'. Most common.
But I do believe in numbers and if all numbers fit together - well, so be it.

 

[arewhyaen]

If Kamila is as good as they say (which assuming she isn't doping, I would say she is that good), then this whole "once in a lifetime Olympic moment" and "irreparable harm" that CAS is alluding to is total BS. Kamila would be able to survive a temporary suspension, and essentially dominate the next Olympic quad going into 2026. The only reason this feels like Kamila's one shot at Olympic gold is because everyone is aware of how disposable these young ladies are in the Eteri camp. Tbh, even without this doping scandal, I could not see Kamila staying relevant beyond one or two more seasons after this one...because that's just how brutal (and now we can plausibly say, "abusive") the Eteri camp is.

 

[matin calin]

Since el Henry is a seasoned litigator, I really doubt she needs a primer on motivation or distinguishing between categories of crimes and how they are or are not relevant here.

Is she is a seasoned litigator I doubt she needs your passive aggressive defence on a figure skating forum.

Pointing out the difference between theft and illegal consumption was done to defend my previous argument and contribute to the critical discussion of the matter (that's how forums usually work) and not give a criminal law lecture to el Henry or any other member.