Kamila Valieva: Anti-doping Case and Follow-ups

[Alchamei]

As my cardiologist says -- many girls from group T had abnormally amplified rib cage, which usually is connected to heart problems. The heart problems in young age could be temporary and explained by the fact that kid's body grow faster then heart. But in the same time young figure skater must traing quads and all that stuff because 15-16 is the peak of the careere in fs. So she said they probably all take these heart decease drugs ( Just opinion.

Can I just ask, where did your doctor got the info about their rib cages? Did he work with them or is it a public info?

 

[vorravorra]

Regarding L-Carnitine - it naturally occurs in the body, and one can buy it as a suplement, and it is not banned by WADA, but any IV infusion with a volume greater than 50 ml in six hours is banned. We don't know yet how much was found in her body. https://healthcare.utah.edu/clinicaltrials/trial.php?id=FP00008621

Also, it would be probably more appropriate to call it supplement that medication, but my point still stands - why to give this substance to 15 year old, along with TMZ and hypoxen? It is not banned, and it supports brain and heart function, and many bodybuilders and fitness guey use it, so one the one hand I understand it on it own, but I find it weird that's they gave two other types of substances to her, and one of them being banned.

Also, hypoxen can be bought in/from Russia only? I found it only with Russian description - https://healthcare.utah.edu/clinicaltrials/trial.php?id=FP00008621

Something is fishy here.

TMZ is fishy, but why the rest? Athletes take a lot of things which is not a problem as long as they are legal.

 

[Alchamei]

TMZ is fishy, but why the rest? Athletes take a lot of things which is not a problem as long as they are legal.

I find it weird that they gave her (or she took) three types of supplements that specificaly target the heart. Why to not give just one? Or why to add another two types of suplements along with TMZ? To hide the TMZ, or to have a better story in case they were caught?

Also, there are athletes, like Adam Rippon, who were very careful about what they put in their body, any suplement that seems legal might have somthing ilegal in them or it could metabolize.

And as I linked earlier, IV infusions over 50 ml in six hours are banned, so the investigation might go in this direction and try to find out whther this was happening...

 

[tempika]

Can I just ask, where did your doctor got the info about their rib cages? Did he work with them or is it a public info?

Visually they are not normal size as she said. She is a doctor with 40 years experience. And this problem is quite well-knows for kids in this age (I had it personally and took some prescribed drugs). As I said it is her opinion only.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I disagree about what "common sense" says. Lots of people are outraged about various aspects of the situation regardless of who might or might not win a medal if certain athletes are disqualified. There is a principle involved that goes beyond grubbing for medals.

Of course, my 'generalization' was related to majority of the media (like for example NBC, CBC, ESPN as some other media platforms), certainly not to all of them or not to the individuals, and that only in comparison with some European media.

 

[flanker]

I can only suggest people from North America to watch more B ESP or any other European coverage, it is much more realistic and truthful to the situation. Now i realize that problem with North Americans is not that 'clean sport' narrative they are pushing, it is sadly and only about the medals (dumb me ). Because if Kamila were suspended, USA would get gold and Canada bronze... so let's just be real about what is behind all those media news. Unlike North America's media, there is no conflict of interest in Europe, so people can keep common sense there # sorry, not sorry

Apart from our media. For a long time my country behaves like a flunkey.

 

[Alchamei]

Apart from our media. For a long time my country behaves like a flunkey.

I'm sorry? Why do you think so?

We report intensively on Valieva case, it is probably rather on the side against her competing, but I don't find anything inapropriate. We are also outraged that she can compete.

We have a bad history with Russia so I understand it.

 

[vorravorra]

I find it weird that they gave her (or she took) three types of supplements that specificaly target the heart. Why to not give just one? Or why to add another two types of suplements along with TMZ? To hide the TMZ, or to have a better story in case they were caught?

Also, there are athletes, like Adam Rippon, who were very careful about what they put in their body, any suplement that seems legal might have somthing ilegal in them or it could metabolize.

And as I linked earlier, IV infusions over 50 ml in six hours are banned, so the investigation might go in this direction and try to find out whther this was happening...

How would L-carnitine and Hypoxen hide TMZ in urine tests? They don't have those kinds of properties. I am also not sure how they would provide a better case. If you mean in terms of heart problems, that's not how you go about it and they are not claiming heart problems as far as we know. A lot of athletes take both L-carnitine and Hypoxen since they are not exactly the same. It's true they could have potentially been contaminated. There was a case of methionine contaminated with TMZ, although the company insisted the degree of contamination was far too low to show up in an athlete's urine sample at the appropriate concentration.

 

[Alchamei]

How would L-carnitine and Hypoxen hide TMZ in urine tests? They don't have those kinds of properties. I am also not sure how they would provide a better case. If you mean in terms of heart problems, that's not how you go about it and they are not claiming heart problems as far as we know. A lot of athletes take both L-carnitine and Hypoxen since they are not exactly the same. It's true they could have potentially been contaminated. There was a case of methionine contaminated with TMZ, although the company insisted the degree of contamination was far too low to show up in an athlete's urine sample at the appropriate concentration.

Her mother claims she takes the supplement because of heart variantions: https://www.newsweek.com/kamila-valievas-mother-says-she-takes-medication-heart-variations-1679546

Which I find weird. She is 15 for Christ sake and already has a heart condition? I thought this would be known already. Also again, while L Carnitine and Hypoxn are legal, I find it would to use in such a combination with TMZ to enhance the effect. I also don't think TMZ would get to her body by contamination, but we still don't have proof.

 

[flanker]

I'm sorry? Why do you think so?

We report intensively on Valieva case, it is probably rather on the side against her competing, but I don't find anything inapropriate. We are also outraged that she can compete.

We have a bad history with Russia so I understand it.

It's similar to what was written about the finnish media: translating/taking over articles without background investigating. Mostly. Keeping the same angle of view as the foreign (mostly US) media and spokepersons without (or with only a little) own contribution. I don't mean just this specific case, it's a common practice for decades. But it would go into the politics too much.

Though, I admit sometimes it can be just a matter of laziness (after all, many times I see the perfectly same articles in various media, because it is just taken work for word from the ČTK - Czech News Agency).

 

[doreen95]

It's similar to what was written about the finnish media: translating/taking over articles without background investigating. Mostly. Keeping the same angle of view as the foreign (mostly US) media and spokepersons without (or with only a little) own contribution. I don't mean just this specific case, it's a common practice for decades. But it would go into the politics too much.

Though, I admit sometimes it can be just a matter of laziness (after all, many times I see the perfectly same articles in various media, because it is just taken work for word from the ČTK - Czech News Agency).

The same applies to Hungarian media.

 

[Alchamei]

It's similar to what was written about the finnish media: translating/taking over articles without background investigating. Mostly. Keeping the same angle of view as the foreign (mostly US) media and spokepersons without (or with only a little) own contribution. I don't mean just this specific case, it's a common practice for decades. But it would go into the politics too much.

Though, I admit sometimes it can be just a matter of laziness (after all, many times I see the perfectly same articles in various media, because it is just taken work for word from the ČTK - Czech News Agency).

The same applies to Hungarian media.

I mean, since we don't are not involved first hand and don't have the info or jurnalistic experince in this field, I understand it. I mean, there is nothing bad about saying the same info is the info is true.

Also, at least on Seznam and Idnes.cz, there were opinionated articles and extra info outside the scandal about it.

 

[vorravorra]

Her mother claims she takes the supplement because of heart variantions: https://www.newsweek.com/kamila-valievas-mother-says-she-takes-medication-heart-variations-1679546

Which I find weird. She is 15 for Christ sake and already has a heart condition? I thought this would be known already. Also again, while L Carnitine and Hypoxn are legal, I find it would to use in such a combination with TMZ to enhance the effect. I also don't think TMZ would get to her body by contamination, but we still don't have proof.

I meant they aren't legally claiming it as an excuse for TMZ since that would require a TUE. So hypoxen is not helpful in this respect. As for contamination, there is a bobsledder who claimed that she got TMZ in her system through contaminated dietary supplement methionine and got her disqualification lifted, but when she subsequently tried to sue the manufacturer and supplier of the product she lost her case because the manufacturer claimed the amount was far too small.

https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Сергеева,_Надежда_Викторовна

 

[Magill]

And just think - if RusFed andd TT were just a little bit more fair to their girls and have let Anna and Sasha share the team gold between them to leave Kamila to get the individual gold she was destined to get anyway, all this mess would have been so much less messy... Everyone would get their team medals, they could have replaced Kamila with Tukt for singles as there was almost 10 days to go, no medal ceremony cancellation, much less impact for everyone and much less bad publicity, it would still be a scandal but would have gotten much less attention. All it required was just being a little bit more sensitive to the girls feelings.... I wonder whether they have any second thoughts now and how many of them think back with regret....

 

[LiamForeman]

Well I guess they could run an experiment to see if indeed there could be enough residual medication left on a glass for someone to pick it up while drinking from the same glass.

But I'm not sure if that would even work because you can't get Kamila's grandpa to do it because he might drink differently if he knows it for his granddaughter's future.

They'd have to find someone of a similar age on the same medication to do it...but then there's a heap of variables...how long did the glass go without being washed etc etc.

Yeah it's dumb...

But, yet, it would be brilliant for Kamila. Sweet naive girl just cannot understand how TMZ could be in her system, so she suggested to CAS maybe she drank from her relative's cup? She has no idea. It would be a perfect set-up once it is established it is much more serious and no Pappy isn't the culprit, then she could say that the only pills she takes are the vitamins that the TeamTut Doc gives her, and then let all hell break loose! She was given TMZ without her knowledge or consent!!! And where is Eteri in all this??? An investigation must immediately get to the bottom of it. Brings down the shady doc and the abusive system, and Kamila is cleared of all wrongdoing! I can see that working for her. Continue making these woefully naive statements like Pappy's coffee mug, Kamila!! It actually helps her, I think.

 

[PullingForSasha]

I am not defending her here. A Google search comes up with this: "In young, healthy subjects, the half-life of trimetazidine is seven hours. In patients over 65, the half-life increases to 11.7 hours. May 12, 2015."
There is no possible way that drug was in her system tonight, or in the Team events. They would have caught it, and the other two are Olympic legal drugs.
For the first time in years, I literally did not know how to feel about me watching the games after this story broke. Just a month ago, she became one of my favorite skaters, and like the other Russians, she is enthralling to watch. Now that bubble has burst like almost no other.

 

[decafjava]

I'm not sure what part of my comment is nasty.

It's factual that she was found to doping and to be drugged up. It's nasty to other clean athletes in the sport to think that the entire standard that people have been trying to kill themselves chasing over the past few years is not indeed natural and has been cheated.

When the investigation is over, would you prefer she kept her fake titles that she possibly got by cheating?

You make it sound like she's on meth or something rather than finding trace amounts of a banned drug that apparently is of no use in figure skating (not an expert) plus whatever happened to "innocent until proven guilty" or is that another dead phrase like "freedom of speech" "freedom of the press" etc. With that I bow out of the thread have fun everyone.

 

[Alchamei]

I am not defending her here. A Google search comes up with this: "In young, healthy subjects, the half-life of trimetazidine is seven hours. In patients over 65, the half-life increases to 11.7 hours. May 12, 2015."
There is no possible way that drug was in her system tonight, or in the Team events. They would have caught it, and the other two are Olympic legal drugs.
For the first time in years, I literally did not know how to feel about me watching the games after this story broke. Just a month ago, she became one of my favorite skaters, and like the other Russians, she is enthralling to watch. Now that bubble has burst like almost no other.

It doesn't matter that the drug was not present in the sample in the Olys. What matters is the positive test happened, doesn't matter when.

 

[LiamForeman]

And just think - if RusFed andd TT were just a little bit more fair to their girls and have let Anna and Sasha share the team gold between them to leave Kamila to get the individual gold she was destined to get anyway, all this mess would have been so much less messy... All it required was just being a little bit more sensitive to the girls feelings.... I wonder whether they have any second thoughts now and how many of them think back with regret....

I was thinking earlier, WHY didn't RusFed let Anna or Sasha do the LP???!!!??? If either did and won the FP, what effect would that have had on the team score, if Kamila's score/placement for the SP had to be vacated? Would they still have won the gold medal anyway? I think RusFed messed up by giving Kamila both programs. Depending on how you calculate it by vacating her scores, right now team ROC could still get the bronze medal. But what if it was only Kamila's SP that was lost? RusFed really took a risk/gamble, and it backfired.

 

[Alchamei]

I was thinking earlier, WHY didn't RusFed let Anna or Sasha do the LP???!!!??? If either did and won the FP, what effect would that have had on the team score, if Kamila's score/placement for the SP had to be vacated? Would they still have won the gold medal anyway? I think RusFed messed up by giving Kamila both programs. Depending on how you calculate it by vacating her scores, right now team ROC could still get the bronze medal. But what if it was only Kamila's SP that was lost? RusFed really took a risk/gamble, and it backfired.

They probably wanted to assure winning Gold and didn't want to leave out their Numero Uno. ROC didn't have that much of an advantage after the short.

Of course, had they had the results of the A sample earlier, they would have let just Anna and/or Sasha skate.