Kamila Valieva: Anti-doping Case and Follow-ups

[Amei]

Here is some food for thought.
What if it was a family member who gave her the drug?
The fact that her Grandfather was taking the drug is suspect.
Every one wants to put the onus on Eteri and her staff. But
what if she is very angry with Kamila for putting them in this spot?
Thus her coldness towards Kamila when she faltered. One also must
remember cultural differences too. Remember too that she had
two other very good skaters who did medal with one winning the gold.
Even if they wanted Kamila to withdraw, someone higher up may have
overruled them. No, I would say Eteri does not cuddle her skaters.
But they are very successful and Parents keep sending their little
girls to her with big dreams so in my books they are also guilty.
Think the IOC President is out of line making comments like this.
I think people rush to judgement before all the facts come out.
What is sad is a 15 year old is caught in the middle of this.
I am sure I will be hammered for this, but frankly I don't care.

I agree, I don't necessarily think its crazy to think that Eteri and team possibly weren't involved after all this is the only athlete of theirs out of a lot that has tested positive; we all know the internal competition for ladies in Russia is insane and additionally we know that if you make it there's some fairly lucrative benefits that come with it.

Regarding Eteri's behavior in the kiss and cry, I don't know if its anything more than that is just her behavior - I've asked the question before and no one has responded - for those that aren't casual fans that appear every 4 years, based on past behavior where did you get the impression that she would have reacted differently than she did

 

[chuckm]

Eteri has always been cool to skaters who don't perform well. Sometimes she leaves the KnC so she doesn't have to be bothered with them. Other times, you can see by the frowning face and the narrowed eyes that the skater is going to be a victim of her wrath. Smiles in the KnC are reserved for the ones that snag medals.

 

[Draculus]

... yes, indeed Polina is smart, articulated and, at the same time, brave and courageous to stand for the truth. And, what is even more importantly in this case, Polina is Russian; her mother is Russian and father American.
Sasha Cohen also mentioned somewhere about doping young skaters in Russia.

Well, Polina said that everybody who were using meldonium before it was banned and had stopped after - are still dopers. Including Plushenko and Tutkit, because they both said that they used it (and call it 'vitamin').
Because obviously WADA ban only doping, that the sign that substance is banned for a good reason - is the ban itself.

It's very hard to agree with this narrative. By expanding term 'doping' that much this narrative basically made it very weak.
Before I read some WADA papers I thought that doping are really hard substances that have proven bad effect on health (and proven effect of athletes performance), etc. So basically that are 2 reason why it shall be banned. And both implies good medical proofs.

But actually there are substances that have 0 proofs that they have bad effect on health, they have 0 medical proofs that they increase athlete performance, but they are still banned because 'theoretically they can', 'it cannot be for 100% excluded'.

Thus doping from "bad stuff" became 'some controversy things'. And nobody to blame here except WADA.

 

[PullingForSasha]

i tend to avoid TSL but in this case, they do not do the talking.. Polina does it and she is smart, articulate and not afraid to share her opinions.

Yes, I love her! She really lays it all down here. She witnessed doping herself. On Facebook, at the time she was 15, and I friended her with a message saying that she has those Baiul arms. She loved it!

 

[Anna K.]

But actually there are substances that have 0 proofs that they have bad effect on health, they have 0 medical proofs that they increase athlete performance, but they are still banned because 'theoretically they can', 'it cannot be for 100% excluded'.

Thus doping from "bad stuff" became 'some controversy things'. And nobody to blame here except WADA.

I don't understand then. If these substances have been used for years, then there should be plenty of medical evidence that they don't have effect on performance and/or adverse health effects. Why not to submit these proofs to WADA with a bid to legalize the substance?

 

[Pantsu]

The Prohibited List Expert Advisory Group

Dr. Audrey KINAHAN (Chair)
Ireland
Dr. Richard BUDGETT
United Kingdom/Switzerland
Dr. Michael CULLER
USA
Prof. David HANDELSMANN
Australia
Dr. Peter HARCOURT
Australia
Dr. Thomas J. HUDZIK
USA
Dr. Marilyn HUESTIS
USA
Dr. Olaf SCHUMACHER
Germany
Dr. Sabina STRANO ROSSI
Italy
Dr. Mark STUART
UK
Dr. Justice TETTEY
Ghana/UK
Dr. Mario THEVIS
Germany

Prohibited List Expert Advisory Group

A WADA Expert Advisory Group

www.wada-ama.org

WADA is more like a private club.

 

[solani]

The Prohibited List Expert Advisory Group

Dr. Audrey KINAHAN (Chair)
Ireland
Dr. Richard BUDGETT
United Kingdom/Switzerland
Dr. Michael CULLER
USA
Prof. David HANDELSMANN
Australia
Dr. Peter HARCOURT
Australia
Dr. Thomas J. HUDZIK
USA
Dr. Marilyn HUESTIS
USA
Dr. Olaf SCHUMACHER
Germany
Dr. Sabina STRANO ROSSI
Italy
Dr. Mark STUART
UK
Dr. Justice TETTEY
Ghana/UK
Dr. Mario THEVIS
Germany

Prohibited List Expert Advisory Group

A WADA Expert Advisory Group

www.wada-ama.org

WADA is more like a private club.

I agree. There must be a qualified Russian expert who could be in that group. With a better background and past than Dr. Shvetsky f.e.. A Chinese expert should be in it as well.

 

[el henry]

The Prohibited List Expert Advisory Group

Dr. Audrey KINAHAN (Chair)
Ireland
Dr. Richard BUDGETT
United Kingdom/Switzerland
Dr. Michael CULLER
USA
Prof. David HANDELSMANN
Australia
Dr. Peter HARCOURT
Australia
Dr. Thomas J. HUDZIK
USA
Dr. Marilyn HUESTIS
USA
Dr. Olaf SCHUMACHER
Germany
Dr. Sabina STRANO ROSSI
Italy
Dr. Mark STUART
UK
Dr. Justice TETTEY
Ghana/UK
Dr. Mario THEVIS
Germany

Prohibited List Expert Advisory Group

A WADA Expert Advisory Group

www.wada-ama.org

WADA is more like a private club.

"the whole world's against us, nobody loves us, WADA is a tool of the west" story.
So, other than the names, how were they selected? Who was nominated? Why haven't the other feds placed someone on the Board. Names without that information is meaningless.

Luckily, with this issue as far as I can see, no one outside Russia is buying the excuses.

I am still waiting for Rusfed and SAMBO 70 to show some courage and take responsibility, rather than hide behind excuses.

How long shall I wait?

 

[skatesofgold]

The Prohibited List Expert Advisory Group

Dr. Audrey KINAHAN (Chair)
Ireland
Dr. Richard BUDGETT
United Kingdom/Switzerland
Dr. Michael CULLER
USA
Prof. David HANDELSMANN
Australia
Dr. Peter HARCOURT
Australia
Dr. Thomas J. HUDZIK
USA
Dr. Marilyn HUESTIS
USA
Dr. Olaf SCHUMACHER
Germany
Dr. Sabina STRANO ROSSI
Italy
Dr. Mark STUART
UK
Dr. Justice TETTEY
Ghana/UK
Dr. Mario THEVIS
Germany

Prohibited List Expert Advisory Group

A WADA Expert Advisory Group

www.wada-ama.org

WADA is more like a private club.

Why isn't there anyone from Asia?

 

[ManyCairns]

Polina was born in the US and competed for the US and theoretically if some investigation finds there was something systematic where there is evidence to broaden the scope and remove more medals, she could potentially be retroactively awarded medals. And I don't listen to TSL but I have seen people reference her saying she saw a few Russians at a competition drink "something" then they went out and had a great practice session, but she's now adding that they don't drink anything to avoid being able to go to the bathroom for doping tests - seems a bit contradictory to each other. And does she have any actual evidence, IE a Russian girl told her something or is this her making insinuations based on observations and capitalizing on the Valieva doping test for interviews and clicks/views? So maybe we hold off on the 'she's brave and courageous and standing for the truth' characterization for coming out with these little 'stories' right when a single Russian athlete (1 of whom I'm guessing she has had no interaction with) tested positive.

...

I know the conversation has moved on a bit, but I wanted to comment on this, because I did listen to that segment of the TSL episode, and nothing Polina said is self contradictory. She and her mother (she was a young junior at the time) in the bathroom/locker room saw Russian athletes putting drops of tincture under their tongues, then going out and producing practice sessions with extraordinary numbers of jumps and also immediately jumping without warming up. Then she also recounted instances of athletes taking hours to produce a urine sample for testing.

I'm not her biggest fan -- I find her very articulate, but for me she tends to present herself as someone with a much longer and far more storied career than she had, and she can be strong with criticism in a manner I don't enjoy -- but she didn't say anything contradictory or inconsistent.

 

[solani]

"the whole world's against us, nobody loves us, WADA is a tool of the west" story.
So, other than the names, how were they selected? Who was nominated? Why haven't the other feds placed someone on the Board. Names without that information is meaningless.

Luckily, with this issue as far as I can see, no one outside Russia is buying the excuses.

I am still waiting for Rusfed and SAMBO 70 to show some courage and take responsibility, rather than hide behind excuses.

How long shall I wait?

Forever. Dr. Shvetsky was enjoying himself today watching the Pairs competition. The grandpa story is in place and Russia will not accept any consequences. The Russian Ministry of Defence is sending good soldiers to protect the innocent figure skaters against the evil forces. That should be enough for all of us ... but it isn't. There should be a Russian expert in that group. There are many drugs in Russia for sure, that the western experts have never heard of.

I must say, that I'm not l'm not happy with the TUE system. It seems far too easy to get a TUE. And I wouldn't allow certain medications to be allowed in competition, even with a TUE.

 

[Draculus]

I don't understand then. If these substances have been used for years, then there should be plenty of medical evidence that they don't have effect on performance and/or adverse health effects. Why not to submit these proofs to WADA with a bid to legalize the substance?

Well, Russians are not good with papers, you know. Just compare amount of TUE in US and Russia.
I doubt that American athletes on average are 10 times more 'ill', but they have much more TUE.

 

[Anna K.]

Well, Russians are not good with papers, you know. Just compare amount of TUE in US and Russia.
I doubt that American athletes on average are 10 times more 'ill', but they have much more TU

My advice for Russians then would be, hire a professional who does the papers.
Or, what other solution would you suggest?

 

[anonymoose_au]

She and her mother (she was a young junior at the time) in the bathroom/locker room saw Russian athletes putting drops of tincture under their tongues, then going out and producing practice sessions with extraordinary numbers of jumps and also immediately jumping without warming up.

Is that even possible? I can only think of two drugs that would allow that amphetamine and cocaine... I mean steroids and heart medication won't allow you to do that.

 

[el henry]

...

I must say, that I'm not l'm not happy with the TUE system. It seems far too easy to get a TUE. And I wouldn't allow certain medications to be allowed in competition, even with a TUE.

I have no idea if it easy to get a TUE, I've never applied for one.

Of course, that has jack squat to do with whether Kamila tested positive for a banned substance.

Your Honor, you can't find me guilty of robbing the store because Joe Blow was never found guilty of trespassing at the bank. Which goes to show you just love love love Joe Blow and are just prejudiced prejudiced prejudiced against me.

Huh

 

[reneerose]

I know the conversation has moved on a bit, but I wanted to comment on this, because I did listen to that segment of the TSL episode, and nothing Polina said is self contradictory. She and her mother (she was a young junior at the time) in the bathroom/locker room saw Russian athletes putting drops of tincture under their tongues, then going out and producing practice sessions with extraordinary numbers of jumps and also immediately jumping without warming up. Then she also recounted instances of athletes taking hours to produce a urine sample for testing.

I'm not her biggest fan -- I find her very articulate, but for me she tends to present herself as someone with a much longer and far more storied career than she had, and she can be strong with criticism in a manner I don't enjoy -- but she didn't say anything contradictory or inconsistent.

I wonder...I didn't watch any of The Skating Lesson or listen to Polina's podcast, but there is a sublingual (under the tongue form of the natural supplement L-Carnitine) that might explain the drops. I don't necessarily want to play devil's advocate, but you have to think if the Russian girls were using under the tongue drops publicly in a locker room where other skaters could see them and not doing anything to hide that, why the drops would even be illegal substances? I think I'll wait for more of the whole K.V. story to come out and I hope all of the truth behind this scandal is found, especially the whole pattern and training practice of endurance doping to produce unnatural super-(quad-producing) soldier serum results.

 

[Draculus]

I'd still say that this would be a good investment.

Well, business in medicine in Russia as far as I know is quite hard and risky. So would not be so sure about such investment strategy.

If there are different opinions about a particular drug or sports medicine in general, I can see only two ways out of this situation: 1) stick to the current rules even though they reflect only one opinion or 2) start negotiation to change the rules.
Otherwise there is a conflict and athletes are caught in the middle.

I think they prefer to look for other medicine that is not yet banned. I have no clue how much efforts are required for a WADA to remove drug from prohibited list and I would guess it's not worth.
But Polina Edmuds (from the post about her podcast I started this discussion) have already claimed all of them dopers. 'It is very different from a clean athletes' she said after she explained that Plushenko, Tuktik and Bobrova had used meldonium before it was banned.

 

[moonvine]

ask skate boarding first and sky Brown who shouldn't compete at 13.

It's too bad that others will have to suffer from this.

 

[4everchan]

I’m saying in addition and actually regardless of the outcome to any investigation into Kamila’s case the IOC and the ISU need to take a good hard look at extra measures they could take to prevent something like what happened from happening again.

Of course any athlete or team that knowingly dopes is the primary problem ...I think that goes without saying but I still think it wise to ask ourselves how on earth this could happen and what can we do to help eliminate it or anything similar from ever happening again. I’m looking at it from the damage this did to the sport and to the Olympics...not just Kamila. In my not so humble opinion the former being far more important.

i don't disagree with your point about athletes who are stars of the sport.. but it's still would not cover everyone. There are surprises in sport of course... and as some people noted, before some people started to realise that endurance doping was perhaps a possible thing in children figure skaters, who would have thought to test a 15 years old figure skater, when there is a legion of cross country skiers or bobbers to test first?

I think that's why my comments and yours focus on different aspects : the IOC will not eliminate doping until the sports culture is changed internally... as it's been the case here, the IOC has no jurisdiction about tests that are taken BEFORE the games... they had to appeal the provisional suspension lift that was done by... RUSADA. So it's every country's anti-doping agency who needs to make sure that their star skaters or athletes will not get a bad surprise leading up to the games... and IMHO, considering the scrutiny of the world with the ROC participation at the games, RUSADA still needed to make sure that none of the "pending tests" that were out there awaiting control turned out positive... they needed to call the lab and ask for all their tests to be done in time... if they did no fault, (we will find out later) then, it's not RUSADA's fault and whose fault it is? We got back to the athlete and team.

My point centers around this : there are often delays in bureaucracy... some things can happen. (not saying they should)... but why are we talking about this : because one test was positive.... Were there other samples that came late? It is a possibility but then, they were negative... So where does lie the fault? At the roots. That will be my last circling around this issue. I cannot be clearer. I replied because you mentioned I was ignoring your main argument : i was not, but it just cannot work like that... doping control cannot be focused on the stars going to the games only...because if there is a pattern like that anyways, there will be ways to avoid it.

 

[Cindy1983]

I wrote a post about this last night and it was taken down. First I want to give caveats. First, I genuinely feel for Kamilla. SHE’S A VICTIM. The second is I willingly admit this is speculation, but not out of the realm of possibility. It’s dark and ppl won’t want to entertain it for that reason. Many of the comments about Eteri paint her as a ruthless woman who’ll do anything to win. There’s a reason she has no skaters over 20. A teenager is more easily controlled, esp one with these hopes and dreams plus the talent to make it happen. That’s the perfect target to promise the moon because they’re willing to do anything to please you. What I’m saying is that there’s a possibility that Kamilla was being forcibly doped. I wouldn’t put it past Eteri. This is squarely on her. I would go as far as to say she should be BANNED from the sport like Tanya Harding was.

This goes mainly to the
person on here who may be a troll. Instead of criticizing Johnny and Adam for congratulating Anna as the gold medalist, ask why did it take an American commentator and an American coach to be the first prominent adults in the skating world to congratulate the actual gold medalist. Let that sink in.