Official explanation of Caroline's score change

[bekalc]

I see your point, but I don't see why you're quoting me since we're talking about two different things. I didn't and don't even want to comment on tech panel's decision because it only proves their incompetence. Also, it was Caroline's lutz that was reviewed, not her triple toe-loop. Her triple-triple was probably justly downgraded. As I said, I'm yet to see the actual competition, but from what I've heard, her lutz was not obviously underrotated, and that's why she was "almost" given benefit of doubt. I just find it absurd that no other lady who have their own history of underrotating was called for underrotation, same with wrong edge issue. BTW, you make it sound like Caroline's team is scheming to manipulate the result and hope it's not what you implied.

I'm not blaming Caroline's team. It might not be her team at all, it might be the TPTB in the USFSA who want Caroline to be at the top because she's their bright star. I never blamed Zhang's team.

If the reigning national champion was called for underrotation, why is it scrutinizing Caroline to call her for a downgrade. Both Meissner and Czisny were called for downgraded jumps, so it's not like Caroline was the only big name skater who was called for downgraded jumps.

Yes, Rachael, Ashley, and Mirai weren't called, but who says that their jumps weren't scrutinized and called clean. Caroline's jumps by all reports didn't look great.

Rachael and Ashley do not have a strong history of underrotation problems. The only time Ashley has been docked for underrotation was for her 3/3 attempt in the GP. Ditto for Rachael, except for one bad uncharacteristic JGP event. The only time Rachael tends to get is for her 3/3's and it's not like they are never called fair.

Mirai does have rotation problems, but historically it's always been an issue for her in the long program, at the end of the program. She's never been called for it in the short.

 

[carolinefan177]

My issue is when has a downgraded jump ever been changed. I can't remember that ever happening. Sometimes you get good callers and bad callers. I doubt that Caroline has never had generous callers before, and by all accounts Caroline's jumps weren't at all on in the short program, and her triple/triple was clearly underrotated.

There is no history of downgraded jumps being changed, so why just Caroline's now? I have real issue with that one, and the fact is maybe Ashley, Mirai, and Rachael weren't called for downgrades, but they were noticably more on in their programs, and their triple/triple attempts were better. Still Caroline wasn't the only person in the competition with downgrades.

If you can tell me one other person/team in this competition who had a situation like this happen a downgraded jump/element changed, then I will be a-okay with what happened. But that can't happen, because it doesn't happen in this system. There are rules about downgraded jumps not being re-reviewed after the scores are posted. So whether or not the initial call was fair, It is very much unfair that Caroline's jump got re reviewed. And someone on another thread said that Liang's coach wasn't happy about changing scores.

I'm sorry but people here are suggesting one rule for Caroline, she can have her jump's reviewed (that's what happened) and another for everyone else.

No one is saying that Caroline should have an opportunity denied to others. The judges felt that their initial decision was wrong, and with the other skaters, they didn't. Why should they take the time to re-eavluate something that they do not have a concern about? The point is that some judges believed that Caroline's jump was not underrotated enough to be downgraded regardless of what decision was made at the end of her program. This was probably concluded after taking into consideration any number of things that we are still unaware of, things that they neglected when she was actually doing program. Also, it's not like her scores actually changed. In the end, Caroline was put behind Bebe. Yes, it was wrong of them to not get it right the first time, but they're human, and they make mistakes. What's wrong with making sure the judging is fair by taking a look at her a jump a second or third time? If it was fully rotated, she deserved to get credit for it. Moreover, about these other skaters that should also be re-reviewed by the judges...who's to say they weren't? Ultimately the judges decide what's fair and unfair.

 

[Wrlmy]

Czisny who has underrotation problems was hit.

Meissner was also hit.

So 2 girls with underrotation problems were called. If the reigning national champion was hit for a downgraded jump, I'm not sure why it's singling out Zhang, that she's hit for a downgraded jump. Who says that Nagasu, Flatt, and Wagner's jumps weren't scrutinized. All three are better jumpers than Zhang.

It would be hard not to downgrade a popped flip.

Or, was it a fall?

 

[bekalc]

I've been honest that Zhang has never been my favorite skater...I'm not saying the call was or wasn't fair. Nor am I blaming Zhang.

I'm arguing that the score change is fishy because I'm sorry it is fishy. And I would feel it was fishy no matter who it happened to.

I find it fishy because I've never heard of a downgraded jump being changed before. If the downgraded jump changes were common, I wouldn't be calling it fishy.. But I don't recall this ever happening before in the history of COP. (A downgraded jump changed) so sorry if I find it questionable that this happens when one of the most hyped talked about skaters in the US underperforms and gets a downgrade. Maybe Caroline was unfairly scrutinized. I don't know. But sorry, the situation is plain weird.

This to me has nothing to do with Caroline, Mirai etc. To me it suggests that the USFSA has their favorites, and their non favorites.. Maybe I'm completely wrong. But it's hard to understand why the Chief referee would have to explain to a technical controller at nationals that you can't change the marks for that kind of thing after the marks were given. That's really hard to understand.

 

[carolinefan177]

I've been honest that Zhang has never been my favorite skater.... I'm not saying the call was or wasn't fair. Nor am I blaming Zhang.

I'm arguing that the score change is fishy because I'm sorry it is fishy. And I would feel it was fishy no matter who it happened to.

I find it fishy because I've never heard of a downgraded jump being changed before. If the downgraded jump changes were common, I wouldn't be calling it fishy.. But I don't recall this ever happening before in the history of COP. (A downgraded jump changed) so sorry if I find it questionable that this happens when one of the most hyped talked about skaters in the US underperforms and gets a downgrade. Maybe Caroline was unfairly scrutinized. I don't know. But sorry, the situation is plain weird.

This to me has nothing to do with Caroline, Mirai etc. To me it suggests that the USFSA has their favorites, and their non favorites.

I think that if the USFSA played favorites, the issue with Caroline's jump being downgraded wouldn't have been in issue in the first place, and, for that matter, I think there is a reason things like changing a jump from downgraded to not downgraded don't happen often...because they usually get it right the first time. Nonetheless, as I said earlier, the system isn't perfect. I mean I remember Japanese nationals, one year, when they had declared the wrong skater champion...and I think that is far more fishy than a jump.

EDIT: and just more thing...you said that Ashley, Mirai, and Rachel are better jumpers than Caroline. I have to disagree for a couple of reasons. 1. Out of the four, Caroline has landed the 3-3 more times than any of them 2. Just because Caroline has a high kick doesn't mean that the other qualities of her jumps are bad...like the air position and security of the landing. 3. Let's not forget that Rachel also has somwhat of a kick into her jumps (and has had her 3-3 downgraded more times than not), Mirai's has had several jumps downgraded in the past, and Ashley has a flutz that's just as bad or worse than Caroline's
I wouldn't say Caroline is any worse of a jumper than the rest of the young troop of skaters.

 

[bekalc]

I think that if the USFSA played favorites, the issue with Caroline's jump being downgraded wouldn't have been in issue in the first place, and, for that matter, I think there is a reason things like changing a jump from downgraded to not downgraded don't happen often...because they usually get it right the first time. Nonetheless, as I said earlier, the system isn't perfect. I mean I remember Japanese nationals, one year, when they had declared the wrong skater champion...and I think that is far more fishy than a jump.

Okay, I have a test for Zhang fans. Ask yourselfs what you would think if it was Meissner who had a jump downgraded, undowngraded, and then the chief referee at the end of the night said, Heh you can't undowngrade a jump. Tell me that you guys wouldn't think something was wrong.

My feeling is
1. Either the Technical Panel did not know the rules. Because apparently according to the referee. You cannot undowngrade jumps once a score has been announced. This is why, no one can point out where a downgraded jump has been changed in the history of COP. This would suggest some kind of incompetence. Because how can you be at US Nationals and not know this basic rule. (This isn't some low level competition)

2. Someone was pressuring the technical committe to review scores etc, and maybe people felt they could get away with it by having it done quietely. I'm not blaming Zhang's team for this, because I don't think they have that kind of power. AT ALL. So, see not blaming Zhang, she's not responsible for corruption.

My fear is if it's two, it could negatively effect the outcomes in the long. What happens if the technical panel felt the decision was right, and then got flack for that decision by higher ups. And so what happens if they decide to not downgrade, questionable jumps by Zhang tonight?

This is my concern. And I'm sorry but I can't understand how people can't think that something very strange happened. Because undowngrading jumps just don't happen. And the fact that the rechange was done quite quietly and Nancy had no explanation about the original change, also suggests something weird was going on.

Once again, I am not blaming Zhang for this because I don't think her team has that kind of power, at all.

Frankly, I'm not sure which one of my theories incompetence, or corruption is worse. When it comes to a competition of this level.

 

[dorispulaski]

....
2. Someone was pressuring the technical committe to review scores etc, and maybe people felt they could get away with it by having it done quietely. I'm not blaming Zhang's team for this, because I don't think they have that kind of power. AT ALL. So, see not blaming Zhang, she's not responsible for corruption.

I wonder whether NBC got involved with it (or whether USFSA were afraid that NBC would get upset) when they discovered that Caroline would not be in the final 6--they have setup the ladies schedule so there's a huge gap in it so the last 6 can be broadcast live. Caroline has been much hyped, and I'm sure they want to broadcast her skate. I can certainly see some panicking going on about this.

My guess for the broadcast is that they will show Caroline from tape and chack Bebe.

 

[Vicky458]

Don't you just love the COP! We can all thank speedy for this wonderful new judging system. It sure doe work!

 

[yelyoh]

Redhotcoach's anecdote about what happened to his/her skater is pretty disgusting. The judge was not paying attention!!!!!!!??????!!!!!!!. I sure hope they test the judges,refs and tech callers for ADD.

 

[ManyCairns]

But Caroline's score was changed back to the LOWER score, right? Not quite following your argument because of that, bekalc. They changed the score, but then changed it back after further review, right?


Actually, from reports, it sounds like the lutz was probably rotated, but, ultimately, she didn't get credit for it (unless they've changed the result a 4th time and I missed it, but as of yesterday it was back to the original mark).

I feel for Caroline, or any competitor, to see their placement jumping around like that. Talk about stressful! Even if it is only by one placement.

 

[demarinis5]

I wonder whether NBC got involved with it (or whether USFSA were afraid that NBC would get upset) when they discovered that Caroline would not be in the final 6--they have setup the ladies schedule so there's a huge gap in it so the last 6 can be broadcast live. Caroline has been much hyped, and I'm sure they want to broadcast her skate. I can certainly see some panicking going on about this.

My guess for the broadcast is that they will show Caroline from tape and chack Bebe.

I have to disagree with your scenario. NBC is going to televise the top ten skaters tonight (unless it has been changed since yesterday) so it really does not matter whether Caroline is sixth or seventh in the placements.

 

[rtureck]

No system is perfect. I feel sorry for Zhang b/c emotionally this must abe a rollercoaster for her. I definitely disagree of the so call "Nagasu" hype. NBC showd part of Nagasu's sp, she is awesome.
Relatively to Caroline (who had been hyped by fans and press as the next BIG one for mos), Nagasu is not hyped. I feel bad for Caroline, but definitely no POOR Zhang, they only pick on her. LOL about MK and Irina's edges get into this. They are not competing anymore.

 

[bekalc]

But Caroline's score was changed back to the LOWER score, right? Not quite following your argument because of that, bekalc. They changed the score, but then changed it back after further review, right?


Actually, from reports, it sounds like the lutz was probably rotated, but, ultimately, she didn't get credit for it (unless they've changed the result a 4th time and I missed it, but as of yesterday it was back to the original mark).

I feel for Caroline, or any competitor, to see their placement jumping around like that. Talk about stressful! Even if it is only by one placement.

Yes, and thank goodness for that but the fact that it happened at all is weird. Given that Bebe's coach made a comment about now, Bebe's place is this next time it will be, it could totaly be that others began to make a stink about the changing scores.

 

[flyingnun]

Caroline is known to flutz and underrotate, and it does not help her at all. Had this event been like SA, where everyone was called for underrotation, I wouldn't complain. But here,it's rather obvious to me that Caroline unfairly scrutinized whereas other a few ladies got away with it (not going to name anyone). Bias and perception are hard to beat. But then again, Kimmie was called for wrong edge, but Caroline, Mirai, Ashley, and Rachael got away? I'm yet to see the actual skate but going with my previous knowledge. I find it implausible that all four girls fixed their flutz within couple months. I don't know what the heck is going on with the tech caller.

Wait a second... Ashley's Flutz wasn't called by the judges? That is ridicules you have to be bind to see that isn't a flutz! Come to think of it I don't even think she every hits an outside edge.

 

[Wrlmy]

Wait a second... Ashley's Flutz wasn't called by the judges? That is ridicules you have to be bind to see that isn't a flutz! Come to think of it I don't even think she every hits an outside edge.

I should probably wait til I see the protocol, but her 3l-3r got a positive GOE which means her flutz was overlooked.

 

[mskater93]

Wait a second... Ashley's Flutz wasn't called by the judges? That is ridicules you have to be bind to see that isn't a flutz! Come to think of it I don't even think she every hits an outside edge.

Wagner got an "e" call on the lutz. She got -1/-2 from the judges across the board, but even with that, because a 3Lo is worth more than the 3T, she's ahead of Flatt.

Nagasu got BIG GOE on the 3/3 (and well deserved, in my opinion, it was lovely). Nagasu also got two -1 on the 3F for the wobbly landing. Nagasu was definitely clean. I looked at the landing closely on the 3T and it was fully rotated and she has proper take off technique (unlike a certain defending National Champion who shall remain nameless). The 2A was HUGE. She was also blazing fast. I hope that she and Wong have made the necessary adjustments to keep from getting the "<" in the FS. Nagasu has been my favorite since I saw her last year at Regionals on icenetwork.

Wager's 3Lo was a struggle on the landing and when I first saw it, thought it may be "<" but I watched it again and she was slighly less than fully rotated (< 1/8 short) and pulled it out with a VERY strong check. Wagner was also quite speedy and definitely "on" technically.

Flatt only had a L1 spiral sequence. The jumps were OK, but not HUGE. She's clearly not as blazingly fast as Nagasu. She's got a nice touch with the SP music.

 

[Wrlmy]

Wagner got an "e" call on the lutz. She got -1/-2 from the judges across the board, but even with that, because a 3Lo is worth more than the 3T, she's ahead of Flatt.

Nagasu got BIG GOE on the 3/3 (and well deserved, in my opinion, it was lovely). Nagasu also got two -1 on the 3F for the wobbly landing. Nagasu was definitely clean. I looked at the landing closely on the 3T and it was fully rotated and she has proper take off technique (unlike a certain defending National Champion who shall remain nameless). The 2A was HUGE. She was also blazing fast. I hope that she and Wong have made the necessary adjustments to keep from getting the "<" in the FS. Nagasu has been my favorite since I saw her last year at Regionals on icenetwork.

Wager's 3Lo was a struggle on the landing and when I first saw it, thought it may be "<" but I watched it again and she was slighly less than fully rotated (< 1/8 short) and pulled it out with a VERY strong check. Wagner was also quite speedy and definitely "on" technically.

Flatt only had a L1 spiral sequence. The jumps were OK, but not HUGE. She's clearly not as blazingly fast as Nagasu. She's got a nice touch with the SP music.

Thanks for clarification! But what I heard was that Wagner ended up with positive GOE on her 3-3. Is it possible to get separate GOEs on each jump of the combo?

 

[fsf9012]

Nagasu got BIG GOE on the 3/3 (and well deserved, in my opinion, it was lovely). Nagasu also got two -1 on the 3F for the wobbly landing. Nagasu was definitely clean.

I didn't see the protocols yet. Did Mirai get 'e' call? I saw her blade was not an outside edge, flat to me, I'm wondering how that was marked.

 

[bethissoawesome]

it's my personal belief that skater's should all have their marks reviewed for a longer, specific amount of time... Meaning every jump should be looked at on a slow-mo replay, better level calls on footwork sequences, and just fewer mistakes in general: We have the technology for more precise calling, so why not use it? I would also like to see the k&c with score announcements AFTER EVER THE WHOLE EVENT IS DONE. Still call the skaters back up in the same order as their skates, but wait until the end. It would allow for all skaters to have more time for their tech calls to be reviewed, and it would force more skaters to go out and try their most challenging program instead of skating with that "well my two big competitors had jumps downgraded, so instead of going for my triple-triple, I'll play it safe with a triple-double" mentality. It might be less exciting to get the scores back at the end than seeing who is in first place for now, etc. But they chose to use CoP to be more fair and technically precise and objective... so maximize it by using the available resources!! Geesh.

 

[bethissoawesome]

Yes, and thank goodness for that but the fact that it happened at all is weird. Given that Bebe's coach made a comment about now, Bebe's place is this next time it will be, it could totaly be that others began to make a stink about the changing scores.

Sorry for the double posting, but if there were complaints by Bebe of her coach about placement in the short program, I would be very disappointed in their sportsmanship. The fact of the matter is, while yes it is annoying, placement doesn't count like it used to. Not to mention that the change in Caroline's placemennt now isn't exactly "bumping her off the podium," and has absolutely no affect on her chances to make the world team since Caroline is not elligible by age.