Skate Canada to allow any 2 athletes to compete together in ice dance, pairs

[DancingCactus]

The office romance explanation does make sense, although:
I did a bit of ballroom dancing as a teenager and we never had enough guys. Dancing with another woman always was awkward, probably also because none of us knew how to lead. Doesn't mean I wanted to jump all the guys' bones when I was dancing with them as compared to when dancing with a girl, but I was more comfortable dancing with guys. Makes me wonder why.

 

[el henry]

The office romance explanation does make sense, although:
I did a bit of ballroom dancing as a teenager and we never had enough guys. Dancing with another woman always was awkward, probably also because none of us knew how to lead. Doesn't mean I wanted to jump all the guys' bones when I was dancing with them as compared to when dancing with a girl, but I was more comfortable dancing with guys. Makes me wonder why.

Had I been in any way shape or form coordinated enough to dance, as a straight woman, I would have been more comfortable with a man partner as well, be they straight, gay or nonbinary. Speaking only for me, even someone as cantankerous as me, I was influenced by societal conditioning as a young pup, and I believe that would have been the reason.

 

[4everchan]

In any case, the point here is not about sexual orientation or attraction. Radford, Poirier and Cizeron, since they have been mentioned, were always able to compete. As elite athletes aiming for world and Olympic medals, sexual orientation is definitely not a priority for these guys. It is often easy enough to separate work from sexual attraction, especially when the goal is an Olympic medal or a National title.. ... actually, I prefer working with straight women or even straight guys.. It's much simpler when you take off "romance".

I find that some of you are jumping the gun here. The news aren't about international competition. This will most likely not affect any of the world class athletes or aspiring elite athletes. I doubt a same sex partnership will even reach Nationals in seniors. I think the article implies mostly two things

1) Better inclusion for non-binary athletes so they can keep competing and not having to go with the traditional association of being a "man' or a "woman: In other words, recognizing non-binary identity in a broad sense, whether or not these athletes are part of what looks on the outside like a "traditional team". (Tim and Ashley for instance).

2) Freer options for developing partnering skills. I can imagine young girls teaming up at younger ages while they wait to find a suitable partner. Why not develop skills, some of which are already trained in synchro, and get a chance to compete for these young athletes who want more/ something else than skating singles ? What I can see is that a bunch of these younger athletes will be doing singles and team up because they just love the sport and want to learn more... I bet it already happens in clubs for training purposes. The only difference now, is that it would be allowed for these teams, to compete, which makes it more exciting for the kids. In the end, this may allow more young athletes to pick up a partnering discipline locally instead of shopping for the ideal partnership in other clubs etc.

I think Skate Canada is being a great leader here as well as a good strategist.

There is no need to "worry" about throws or lifts or anything like that... or about current or past world class athletes or about romance or sexual orientation... I believe it's not about that.

 

[kenboy123]

I think one good thing about this is that this might potentially open up more options for more partner options for pairs and dance skaters, no one will they have to be forced to find a partner of the opposite gender if none is available/suitable, they can pick someone of the same gender…however, I imagine if they do…it may hurt their chances of going international…

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Given that international spots aren't on the line I'm okay with this. Long term, if it goes international I think separate categories are needed (as advantage on jumping side if man is short enough to be lifted).
That being said, right now it's probably a good strategic move to get publicity for same sex pairs to eventually allow same sex categories to be implemented internationally (I.e. like solo dance domestically allowed the international discipline)

To clarify I'm a big believer in same sex pairs and would love it as opportunity for more women to have partner options (and also imagining the insane elements m/m could produce), in addition to obvious inclusively of both non-traditional relationship roles and different storytelling choreographically). Internationally I feel categories should be separated if it takes off due to biological advantages.

 

[icybear]

Wouldnt this give male and male parthership an unfair advantage? Male are biologically stronger and have greater core strength so they will likely fare better being thrown up/across the ice and men generally are better at jumps. You can see in almost every pair routine it is usually the female who messes up the jumps. That is if the "girl" male is lighter like a male singles skater weight. I'm sure a lot of the slight male singles skater probably weight similar to female pair skater who are usually more muscular than female singles.

 

[el henry]

Wouldnt this give male and male parthership an unfair advantage? Male are biologically stronger and have greater core strength so they will likely fare better being thrown up/across the ice and men generally are better at jumps. You can see in almost every pair routine it is usually the female who messes up the jumps. That is if the "girl" male is lighter like a male singles skater weight. I'm sure a lot of the slight male singles skater probably weight similar to female pair skater who are usually more muscular than female singles.

I am sure you do not mean it this way, but saying "girl" male could be seen as offensive.

I believe this question of terms was addressed well in an interview with Timothy LeDuc, who as non binary, used the term "lifting partner" to refer to themselves.

And no, I see no reason for a man non-lifting partner to fare better than a woman non-lifting partner. And I have seen plenty of pairs where the man messed up the jump

 

[DancingCactus]

Actually I think it's the other way round? Unless the male non-lifting partner was reeeally small and light, the lifting partner would have to lift more weight than if his partner was a woman. Aren't most pair women really tiny?

In the end I don't think this is going to affect many people in practice, but it's great for those who for some reason or another don't fit the traditional categories.

 

[sworddance21]

Interesting and progressive.
But it does make me wonder.. is sexual attraction necessary or preferable in pairs and especially in ID? Would say, Guillaume Cizeron or Paul Poirier prefer to skate with another guy because they are gay or does this not matter to them? Also, what about siblings?

I'm not a skater, but I am/was a dancer. I danced with many people with whom I didn't share a sexual attraction. It is absolutely not necessary. Sometimes it's fun. But it isn't necessary. A good dancer can create whatever mood is needed with whomever they are dancing with. IMHO.

 

[sworddance21]

Also, as far as what is and isn't possible, I would just say that until about 6 months ago we all thought a quad axle wasn't possible. Let's see where it goes.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

I'm not a skater, but I am/was a dancer. I danced with many people with whom I didn't share a sexual attraction. It is absolutely not necessary. Sometimes it's fun. But it isn't necessary. A good dancer can create whatever mood is needed with whomever they are dancing with. IMHO.

Tessa and Scott who weren't a romantic couple had a lot more chemistry than many romantic couples for example

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Tessa and Scott who weren't a romantic couple had a lot more chemistry than many romantic couples for example

And friend/sibling chemistry too can be very watchable! I always liked the Shibs and now the two Czech sibling pairs.

It is indeed about inclusion. I have no problem imagining a woman throwing another woman etc... We see it to a certain degree in synchro. We also see incredibly strong women in artistic swimming. Also, considering that often, there is a lack of male partners, it may allow younger skaters to keep practicing pairs or dance and compete.

I think it's not so much the throw jumps as the overhead lifts and twist lift which are impossible for women. Throw jump technique seems to vary with some teams being mostly about the throw (they often don't do well on SBS, e.g. Panfilova/Rylov) and other teams (often later-life converts from singles, e.g. Zoe Jones) relying more on the jump part. An all-girl team could manage if the throwee is a great jumper.
An oestrogen-dominant individual who can do overhead lifts (if one exists) likely wouldn't have the power-weight ratio to consistently land jumps. But tween/early teen pairs don't do overhead lifts, so it might work for e.g. StarSkate tests. At those levels, things like stroking together are more critical.

 

[elbkup]

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[sworddance21]

Tessa and Scott who weren't a romantic couple had a lot more chemistry than many romantic couples for example

Yep - exactly.

 

[Draculus]

If man-man vs. man-woman pair is fair then I do not see any reason why single man vs. single woman is not.

 

[yesterday]

Lots of big "ifs", but as you were discussing how it can be fair and how it can be done having several differently paired couples in one competition, I was thinking about how it is done in Paralympic sports: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paralympic_sports

e.g. Alpine Skiing, where they do not hold a race for each classification but they can put several of them into one race by adjusting how fast the clock goes. Sounds weird, but it works.
You could definitely define this for COP/IJS as well and then having the different couples in all classification levels comparable when using the "factored scoring system". (FSS, you heard it here first )

 

[TontoK]

If man-man vs. man-woman pair is fair then I do not see any reason why single man vs. single woman is not.

Please do not apply logic to this situation. It's a purely emotional issue, wherein everyone gets to applaud and nod approvingly at each other, without giving a second thought to how this would actually work in real life.

But, for the record, you're right. If there's no difference in pairs/dance, then there's no difference in singles, and we can move away from antiquated notions of separate "Men's" and "Women's" competitions, and just throw everyone together in one event.

 

[el henry]

Madison Hubbell has insight about how this would work in "real life" (however that is defined): I don't know why nodding approvingly should be a bad thing, but I am proud to do it if that is what I am doing.

Madison Hubbell: “I really want to do a project with Gabriella Papadakis and show what two women skating together can look like.” Madison Hubbell

The Canadian Figure Skating Federation has changed the definition of a

fs-gossips.com

talking about pairing with Gabriella Papadakis.

... we are both very excited about this initiative to have a non-gendered event, more than creating a female-female event or male-male and then mixed. We think that everyone should be allowed to compete with everyone. It’s hard to imagine that without seeing it, right? And who better than two athletes who just retired so they are not completely out of it, not completely out of shape could do it? And we have an amazing team around! We skated together in spring; Gabi came to London for 3 days, and we skated and filmed it. So many things worked really easily right away: transitions, skating skills, twizzles, one-foot, footworks, to track each other close – all have been really easy for both of us.

But obviously lifts and tricks – things that we are used to do in one part of it – we have to learn how to be the base or to do a slightly different skillset. So we are very lucky to have Mimi and Seb (Cirque du Soleil acrobats working with the I.Am academy), and they don’t see any issue here. So often, acrobatic partners are almost the same size and height, so it’s all about leverage and technique.

 

[Princessroja]

Madison Hubbell has insight about how this would work in "real life" (however that is defined): I don't know why nodding approvingly should be a bad thing, but I am proud to do it if that is what I am doing.

Madison Hubbell: “I really want to do a project with Gabriella Papadakis and show what two women skating together can look like.” Madison Hubbell

The Canadian Figure Skating Federation has changed the definition of a

fs-gossips.com

talking about pairing with Gabriella Papadakis.

... we are both very excited about this initiative to have a non-gendered event, more than creating a female-female event or male-male and then mixed. We think that everyone should be allowed to compete with everyone. It’s hard to imagine that without seeing it, right? And who better than two athletes who just retired so they are not completely out of it, not completely out of shape could do it? And we have an amazing team around! We skated together in spring; Gabi came to London for 3 days, and we skated and filmed it. So many things worked really easily right away: transitions, skating skills, twizzles, one-foot, footworks, to track each other close – all have been really easy for both of us.

But obviously lifts and tricks – things that we are used to do in one part of it – we have to learn how to be the base or to do a slightly different skillset. So we are very lucky to have Mimi and Seb (Cirque du Soleil acrobats working with the I.Am academy), and they don’t see any issue here. So often, acrobatic partners are almost the same size and height, so it’s all about leverage and technique.

Oh my word, I really hope this happens. They're both such incredible ice dancers. I can't imagine whatever they produce being anything other than amazing.

 

[NanaPat]

In ice dance, I don't see any particular combination of two skaters (F/M, F/F, M/M, O/O, etc) having an inherent advantage over any other combination.

In pairs, many of the elements are predicated on a particular combination of physical characteristics (one tall partner with enormous upper body strength to be the lifter, one short partner to be the liftee) that I think the current combination will have an advantage over F/F and M/M pairs. That doesn't mean the change shouldn't be made, if only to allow athletes who identify as "other" to participate under their own identities.