The Loop Jump - Pre/Underrotation by all, or Spotty Technique by some? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

The Loop Jump - Pre/Underrotation by all, or Spotty Technique by some?

It's the devil. ^_^

Everyone pre-rotates, if that's what you meant. That might be why my body "gets" toe jumps better than edge jumps...using the free leg to pull up into a jump feels more natural to me than rotating into it. On the Loop especially I often feel like my free leg is in the way on the takeoff. I sometimes have a hard time hooking into the jump, not completing the necessary turn on the ice to push up into it properly.

vlaurend said:
On the other hand, the loop jump is technically simpler, since it's the only jump where there is no adjustment of weight or position between the takeoff edge and the rotational position in the air.
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Not entirely true...having to lift and swing the free leg of the loop requires bodily adjustment.
 
Glad to see some posters are thinking about the pre rotatiion. I've been watching junior boys at icenetwork and there are a number of pre rotations on the ice before a loop - some with almost a whole rotation on the ice. But I don't think it is a serious error. Most fans and judges are only concerned with the under rotation.

Joe
 
GoldMedalist said:
Not entirely true...having to lift and swing the free leg of the loop requires bodily adjustment.
Click to expand...

The free leg dosn't swing on the loop jump and there's no weight on it either. Where's the bodily adjustment? I don't notice any on the loop. I like it because there isn't any adjustments to be made, you just press up and close the hip. Where's the swing?
 
silver.blades said:
The free leg dosn't swing on the loop jump and there's no weight on it either. Where's the bodily adjustment? I don't notice any on the loop. I like it because there isn't any adjustments to be made, you just press up and close the hip. Where's the swing?
Click to expand...
Very true about the loop. It is not like those other two edge jumps: the axel and salchow.

But I have to say that the loop needs more muscle energy than any other jump. The toe-off jumps alleviate most of the muscle energy needed to jump. Everyone seems to take that loop jump for granted. They shouldn't, it's tough to do properly.

Joe
 
Technically the loop is challenging mainly because it is an edge jump. To execute a loop well one must have good balance, timing and technique. It requires a skater to spring up using leg and hip muscles. It takes a lot of practice to perfect the loop. Kurt Browning is a master at this type of jump because he has such good edge control and balance when he skates. If a skater rushes it may throw them off and this could be the reason their execution lookes "sloppy."
 
silver.blades said:
The free leg dosn't swing on the loop jump and there's no weight on it either. Where's the bodily adjustment? I don't notice any on the loop. I like it because there isn't any adjustments to be made, you just press up and close the hip. Where's the swing?
Click to expand...

Pressing up and closing the hip is a body adjustment. Lifting the free leg and then locking it in front of the skating leg is not really a "weight transfer" but it's something that can throw a skater off regardless.

The "swing" is in the takeoff of the jump...having to turn and vault off that outside edge.

I'm just describing what throws me off on Triple and sometimes Double Loops, I guess.
 
I presume the loop jump was a designated jump in this years SP at jr worlds. It was fun for me to watch various interpetations of it from the skaters.

It's all about muscle (thigh and calf) to get one in the air - no toepick here to assist, and doing it singly gets no assist from momentum except for a possible series of three turns. For most of the skaters in the competition, one could tell when the loop jump was the next element. The character of the music is on hold until this jump if finished. An uneasy slow down occurs just before the take off. Only the top tier skaters can manage it with speed, and maintain the character of the music. (to me that is an automatic +2GoE).

What I was observing in the competition, was that many if not most skaters will cross their non-jumping foot over the jumping foot (as in a cross over) then squat and jump off. I could swear but I am not certain that some skaters use the cross-overs as an assist, i.e., a two foot take off. Has anyone else noticed this possibility?

Joe
 
Joesitz said:
What I was observing in the competition, was that many if not most skaters will cross their non-jumping foot over the jumping foot (as in a cross over) then squat and jump off. I could swear but I am not certain that some skaters use the cross-overs as an assist, i.e., a two foot take off. Has anyone else noticed this possibility?

Joe
Click to expand...

Hi Joe-- Nicole Bobek used to do this, but her left foot was flat on the ice, so that it was almost like a two-foot takeoff. In fact, her left foot was down on the ice so far that it seemed like she was doing a flip jump instead of a loop, because it seemed like her right foot (not her right toe) was assisting the LBI when she left the ice.
 
Joesitz said:
What I was observing in the competition, was that many if not most skaters will cross their non-jumping foot over the jumping foot (as in a cross over) then squat and jump off. I could swear but I am not certain that some skaters use the cross-overs as an assist, i.e., a two foot take off. Has anyone else noticed this possibility?
Joe
Click to expand...

The cross over helps for balance and the rotation of the jump, but it's not a 2 foot take off. If the weight isn't entierly over the landing foot as the foot crosses under there's no way that the jump is going to work.
 
Joesitz said:
What I was observing in the competition, was that many if not most skaters will cross their non-jumping foot over the jumping foot (as in a cross over) then squat and jump off. I could swear but I am not certain that some skaters use the cross-overs as an assist, i.e., a two foot take off. Has anyone else noticed this possibility?
Click to expand...

Not quite a two foot takeoff, but that's a very standard way of teaching and executing the jump. At one point I was against it but I don't really consider it to be a cheat anymore.
 
On that take off (I use it for the double loop), you press the free foot off the ice first then the take off/landing side and close up to the free side. It helps generate spring and get the free leg in the right spot so you can rotate straight instead of on the wrong side of the body. It's not uncommon to take off between a 1/4 and a 1/2 turn pre-rotated.
 
So is this the cause for the ISU allowing up to 1/4 pre-rotation on all jumps?
 
From a biomechanical perspective, you are going to "pre rotate" jumps. There are many, many articles on the biomechanics of jumps and the laws of physics which is why the prerotation is allowed by the ISU
 
I was wondering, since I am not an expert, was Tara's Lipinski 3r-3r clean at the olympics?
 
mskater93 said:
From a biomechanical perspective, you are going to "pre rotate" jumps. There are many, many articles on the biomechanics of jumps and the laws of physics which is why the prerotation is allowed by the ISU
Click to expand...

I would gladly read these articles. Could you give references to them ? Thanks.
 
Joesitz said:
I would like to read the ISU article that says prerotation is permitted for jumps.

Joe
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There is no article that says it's "allowed by the ISU", the tech panel just calls the element clean. You need some rotation on the ice because you need the old laws of physics...
 
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