The Loop Jump - Pre/Underrotation by all, or Spotty Technique by some?

[Joesitz (RIP)]

There is no article that says it's "allowed by the ISU", the tech panel just calls the element clean. You need some rotation on the ice because you need the old laws of physics...

So the Tech Panel says it's clean. Does it ever say it is not clean? What would make a prerotation not clean?

I can understand the underrotation, it does exist. A skater does not not need some rotation on the ice at least less than 45 degrees off. I do not understand the prerotation, which also exists but it could and does prerotate sometimes at 50 degrees. It kind of tests Physics, imo.

Joe

 

[mskater93]

Toe loops are where they are picky on the take off. I look at all my multi-rotational take offs, and there's a check mark that pretty much ensures I have "pre-rotated" a quarter turn.

 

[inskate]

From my, admittedly very limited, experience as a skater, I agree with mskater93. You need some \"prerotation\" to initiate the jump, although I do not consider it \"prerotation\", because this is simply how the jump looks like.

You don\'t see skaters approaching the loop jump on one leg, then springing up in the air and mysteriously getting the rotational power from nowhere. Usually they do either a \"two-foot\" approach, or enter the jump from 3-turns.

This \"need for momentum\" is what makes the loop combos so different from toe combos. In toe combos you can mess up the first jump - pop it or have an unsteady landing - and still tack on a double (in my case) or a triple (in case of the skaters better than me ) toe as long as you have some speed left. Even if you look at the combos of some top skaters you will notice that very often they have a visible slightly wobbly \"steadying-the-edge\" moment. For me it\'s a bit like doing two separate jumps.

The loop combos, on the other hand, use the momentum from the first jump - it serves the same purpose as the second foot assistance or a 3-turn entry when doing a single. The first jump needs to be executed perfectly, you cannot steady the edge and then launch off. A tiny moment of hesitation or a slight wobble and you end up popping the jump, or launching in the air under a wonky angle. I guess this is why we see the loop combos so rarely done by men - they certainly have the power to rotate the jump, but rarely great enough edge control on landing (and their grater body mass makes it more difficult) to be sure that nothing will go wrong with the second (or third) jump.

I suggest finding some videos of skaters that are famous for their good jumps and watching their loops - both single and in combo - frame-by-frame.

Most of the jumps I find rather difficult to prerotate - staying on the ice longer than necessary would result for me in losing the momentum rather than making the jump easier! One exception is the toe-loop, which many skaters toe-axel (and some are penalized for it by having the jump downgraded; or most, actually, since the rules baceme stricter this season). The name \"toe-axel\" itself explains what happens during the jump - instead of using the toe-pick merely to launch the take-off, the skater shifts the weight onto the assist leg, swings in and does sort of, well, toe axel.

Also I would like to thank mskater93 for the links to the biomechanics of skating articles - I am reading them now. Great stuff! Not only informative, but also presented in a very accesible way and amusing(I loved the flash animation with the skater being blown away by the wind ).

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

OK. I'm just being inquisitive. This is what I got out of the thread: It's ok to prerotate jumps on the ice before one goes airborne. That's good for the skater because there is a lot of prerotation before edge jumps. If you count the turns in the air they come up short, but no matter.

Joe

 

[Skate@Delaware]

From my, admittedly very limited, experience as a skater, I agree with mskater93. You need some \"prerotation\" to initiate the jump, although I do not consider it \"prerotation\", because this is simply how the jump looks like.

You don\'t see skaters approaching the loop jump on one leg, then springing up in the air and mysteriously getting the rotational power from nowhere. Usually they do either a \"two-foot\" approach, or enter the jump from 3-turns.

This \"need for momentum\" is what makes the loop combos so different from toe combos. In toe combos you can mess up the first jump - pop it or have an unsteady landing - and still tack on a double (in my case) or a triple (in case of the skaters better than me ) toe as long as you have some speed left. Even if you look at the combos of some top skaters you will notice that very often they have a visible slightly wobbly \"steadying-the-edge\" moment. For me it\'s a bit like doing two separate jumps.

The loop combos, on the other hand, use the momentum from the first jump - it serves the same purpose as the second foot assistance or a 3-turn entry when doing a single. The first jump needs to be executed perfectly, you cannot steady the edge and then launch off. A tiny moment of hesitation or a slight wobble and you end up popping the jump, or launching in the air under a wonky angle. I guess this is why we see the loop combos so rarely done by men - they certainly have the power to rotate the jump, but rarely great enough edge control on landing (and their grater body mass makes it more difficult) to be sure that nothing will go wrong with the second (or third) jump.

I suggest finding some videos of skaters that are famous for their good jumps and watching their loops - both single and in combo - frame-by-frame.

Most of the jumps I find rather difficult to prerotate - staying on the ice longer than necessary would result for me in losing the momentum rather than making the jump easier! One exception is the toe-loop, which many skaters toe-axel (and some are penalized for it by having the jump downgraded; or most, actually, since the rules baceme stricter this season). The name \"toe-axel\" itself explains what happens during the jump - instead of using the toe-pick merely to launch the take-off, the skater shifts the weight onto the assist leg, swings in and does sort of, well, toe axel.

Also I would like to thank mskater93 for the links to the biomechanics of skating articles - I am reading them now. Great stuff! Not only informative, but also presented in a very accesible way and amusing(I loved the flash animation with the skater being blown away by the wind ).

Altho it is rather hard to accomplish a one-footed loop...it is possible. I have done this on many occasions. My coach is very old-school and this is the way she teaches loops-and the only one she accepts as a "proper" loop. The free foot trails slightly crossed barely on the ice...and when the jump occurs, it lifts first, then the toe-pick of the skating foot lifts. That gives you the height you need for this jump. I'm only allowed 1/4 pre-rotation. She's very picky. (she is correcting my landing on this...I was taught the half-loop first by another coach and have been fighting with landing the loop).

Unfortunately, not everyone is taught correct technique for jumps (and not every coach teaches correct technique). I have spent 3 years correcting toe-axeling....and only now have a nice toe-loop. Among other things.