Domnina/Shabalin reportedly withdraw

[Tigger]

Well...I'd love to say I'm surprised, but I'm not. I've got two very bad knees myself and am a veteran of a few knee scopes. I had a feeling they were pushing things and was hoping they'd do the right thing for Max's health and w/draw.

I'll miss them, but I am glad they've decided to do this.

 

[Skye]

I think it's entirely possible that K/N will place ahead of V/M and take bronze, but it will be because of the judging panel, which will have at least two Russian judges (ARM and RUS) and Russia-friendly BUL and EST on the FD panel. In addition, the possibility exists that AZE (also Russian) and UZB and ISR (Russia friendly) will be on the FD panel as well.

This panel was originally engineered to help ensure gold for DomShabs, and since ice dance is probably the only discipline where Russia can win a medal, I would not be at all surprised to see K/N get some humungous PCS scores and place ahead of V/M.

Well the judging panel at Worlds last year placed the Russians 5th and 8th behind teams they had been beating throughout the entire season, so maybe Piseev worked extra hard to get his revenge. I suggest you watch the skating first, and then do the talking.

 

[1795]

i wonder what would happen if teams did not represent countries...

PERSONALLY, i would place V/M in front of K/N - does not matter what place...but just ahead. IMHO, the only thing K/N is know for is their acrobatics and their country of origin.

in juxtaposition the two slightly contrast:
V/M - dancers and true skaters with OK lifts
K/N - acrobats who perform a great performance...aka PCS in a nutshell

 

[blue dog]

K/N remind me a lot of:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=U_W3vQpsPEs

 

[Kinga]

I think it's entirely possible that K/N will place ahead of V/M and take bronze, but it will be because of the judging panel, which will have at least two Russian judges (ARM and RUS) and Russia-friendly BUL and EST on the FD panel. In addition, the possibility exists that AZE (also Russian) and UZB and ISR (Russia friendly) will be on the FD panel as well.

This panel was originally engineered to help ensure gold for DomShabs, and since ice dance is probably the only discipline where Russia can win a medal, I would not be at all surprised to see K/N get some humungous PCS scores and place ahead of V/M.

I am truly tired of speculating how the judges can mess up this competition. I am truly sad that something like: "if KN take bronze, it will be because of the judging panel" can be written by anyone! This is very rude to skaters! You already take away from K/N the opportunity to win fairly the bronze. That is unfair! Also because I dont think that V/M are much better than K/N. I even think that it is other way around at the end of this season. It is an open competition and both pairs are very different, but very close to each other when it comes to level. Personally, I hope that K/N get the bronze.

Also, I am very annoyed with so called "Russian judges" being from ARM or AZE etc... They are NOT Russians and maybe you should understand that not everything in ex-Russian republics spins around Russia. Probably there are cases that some of these judges prefer Russian couples, but I would be far from concluding that it happens ALWAYS. Not all of them are cheaters!

 

[Morgane]

Also, I am very annoyed with so called "Russian judges" being from ARM or AZE etc... They are NOT Russians and maybe you should understand that not everything in ex-Russian republics spins around Russia. Probably there are cases that some of these judges prefer Russian couples, but I would be far from concluding that it happens ALWAYS. Not all of them are cheaters!

And not all of them like Russia It also annoys me how people reduce the dance competition to counting how many judges are from the so-called "East"
Personally, I prefer K/N over V/M. If K/N skate well, they can medal and this medal would be perfectly deserved and not just given to them because of their nationality. :agree:

 

[npa]

And not all of them like Russia It also annoys me how people reduce the dance competition to counting how many judges are from the so-called "East"
Personally, I prefer K/N over V/M. If K/N skate well, they can medal and this medal would be perfectly deserved and not just given to them because of their nationality. :agree:

Some people think, that K/N will fight for bronz with Delobel-Sholfender
And inetersting - if V/M will win medal - its all politices, federation, judjes. And if Kh/N will - it all because they are so good

 

[Skye]

Some people think, that K/N will fight for bronz with Delobel-Sholfender
And inetersting - if V/M will win medal - its all politices, federation, judjes. And if Kh/N will - it all because they are so good

How interesting that I find the opposite to be prevalent on most FS boards. I don't know if it's due to the Russians' long dominance in this division, or because of what happened in SLC 2002, but this is not the first time a random Ice Dance thread has turned into an "always has been and always will be wuzrobbed by evil judges" tantrum. DomShabs are a lock for gold (easily ignoring the fact that they didn't even medal at last year's Worlds) and now that they are out of the picture it's K&N who become beneficiaries of politics (because they know nothing about dance compared to V&M and D&W) --- ARGGGHH. I'm a North American myself, but this same old song is getting tedious.

 

[npa]

How interesting that I find the opposite to be prevalent on most FS boards. I don't know if it's due to the Russians' long dominance in this division, or because of what happened in SLC 2002, but this is not the first time a random Ice Dance thread has turned into an "always has been and always will be wuzrobbed by evil judges" tantrum. DomShabs are a lock for gold (easily ignoring the fact that they didn't even medal at last year's Worlds) and now that they are out of the picture it's K&N who become beneficiaries of politics (because they know nothing about dance compared to V&M and D&W) --- ARGGGHH. I'm a North American myself, but this same old song is getting tedious.

I wright before, that all will depend from there skating at WCH (i mean all skaters, who can take medals this year)/ And its hard to predict the results.

 

[Kinga]

Some people think, that K/N will fight for bronz with Delobel-Sholfender
And inetersting - if V/M will win medal - its all politices, federation, judjes. And if Kh/N will - it all because they are so good

I never said that if V/M wins with K/N it will be connections. If they do, they will probably deserve it.

 

[Hsuhs]

"always has been and always will be wuzrobbed by evil judges" tantrum.

Yeah. I see it as an idée fixe, a delusion, which gets very aggressive sometimes, and try to avoid the dance threads as much as I can. I don't think I want to discuss such a beautiful and delicate thing as ice dance with those ppl.

 

[Dodhiyel]

I am sad for Maxim; so many surgeries, and still another injury.

Now I just read that Evan Lysacek also has had to withdraw due to injury. Let's hope there are no more withdrawals due to injury.

 

[chuckm]

Here was the FD panel at 2007 Worlds: AUS BUL CAN CHN CZE GER ISR ITA JPN LTU POL USA

No Russian judge, only the very independent LTU judge (not Russia friendly) as a former SSR, and the BUL judge certain to back Den/Sta and not DomShabs. The only judge who might have backed DomShabs for a medal was the Russia-friendly ISR judge.

DomShabs was in the medal hunt after the CD (3rd) and OD (4th) but needed backing in the FD to get on the podium. That didn't happen, given the judging panel. That's why DomShabs didn't get on the podium---not enough support from the judges, who were geographically diverse.

But the judging panel is very, very different this year from last year.
Definite for the FD: ARM (represented by a Russian 'loaned' to Armenia), BUL (with no strong Bulgarian team to back), EST (who has supported Russian teams in the JGP) and RUS. After these four, eight more judges will be drawn at random from the following:
AUT, AZE (again a Russian 'loan'), CAN, CHN, FRA, GER, GBR, ISR (Russia-friendly), SWE, UKR (Russia friendly and no Ukrainian medal contender), USA, UZB (very Russia-friendly).

At a minimum, there will be 4 sure Russia-friendly judges on the FD panel, and the possibility exists (if AZE, ISR, UKR and UZB are randomly selected) that there can be as many as 8.

 

[Jasper]

YAAAAY!

Come on, everyone is happy about this deep down, whatever they say. Dom/Shab had a terrible program that was going to be overmarked and win Worlds. Now the title is up for grabs between three amazing teams with much more skill, precision, artistry, and emotional connection. I can't wait to see them all on the podium. Even the Russian #2 team is far superior to these posers.

 

[Kinga]

Here was the FD panel at 2007 Worlds: AUS BUL CAN CHN CZE GER ISR ITA JPN LTU POL USA

No Russian judge, only the very independent LTU judge (not Russia friendly) as a former SSR, and the BUL judge certain to back Den/Sta and not DomShabs. The only judge who might have backed DomShabs for a medal was the Russia-friendly ISR judge.

DomShabs was in the medal hunt after the CD (3rd) and OD (4th) but needed backing in the FD to get on the podium. That didn't happen, given the judging panel. That's why DomShabs didn't get on the podium---not enough support from the judges, who were geographically diverse.

But the judging panel is very, very different this year from last year.
Definite for the FD: ARM (represented by a Russian 'loaned' to Armenia), BUL (with no strong Bulgarian team to back), EST (who has supported Russian teams in the JGP) and RUS. After these four, eight more judges will be drawn at random from the following:
AUT, AZE (again a Russian 'loan'), CAN, CHN, FRA, GER, GBR, ISR (Russia-friendly), SWE, UKR (Russia friendly and no Ukrainian medal contender), USA, UZB (very Russia-friendly).

At a minimum, there will be 4 sure Russia-friendly judges on the FD panel, and the possibility exists (if AZE, ISR, UKR and UZB are randomly selected) that there can be as many as 8.

So actually you are still digging up for the conspiracy. Ok, so someone could also say that last year words was a conspiracy - the panel was Bulgarian friendly and was suppose to keep Russian out of the podium. I wouldnt say that because I love Den/Sta, but someone who does not like their skate could say that! Lets be a bit more sane here and not look for conspiracy everywhere it is possible.
Another thing is - what is a poor judge from ARM or AZE suppose to do if he REALLY likes Russians dance more? (at the end, is it forbidden??). I guess just get depressed... If he gives them high score he will be considered cheater and 'Russian friendly'. So is he suppose to score someone who he did not think was better, just to prove not being Russia friendly?? That's crazy! At the end we are not speaking here of crowning a couple that represents 20th place level. We speak about two Russian couples that are good!
And, actually, have you seen the protocols showing that these judges ALWAYS placed Dom/Sha or K/N in front of other pairs?? I guess the protocols are not for public view (which is a shame, btw).

To end this, I just wanted to say, that as far as I really dont like Dom/Sha skate, I do like their FD this year and, if only they could start at WC, they would be totally entitled to fight for gold and I dont see any conspiracy and politics in that. I actually do find V/M and Del/Sch and D/W FDs quite pale this year. I liked V/M last year A LOT, I loved Del/Sch in 2006 and 2005, I like D/W in general. But all these pairs dont have a super exciting FDs. And I guess I am not the only one who thinks that.
But at the end - could we leave the conspiracy issues behind and just let skaters dance?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I doubt very much there can be a conspiracy and not even a collusion. What could happen are judges who were once in a favored country but have found other means to live in a new country, may still have the refinement of the favored country which is their heritage, and their children will also have the same likes.

The above would be stacking the panel. I do believe these judges will vote the same way without any kind of collusion. If the draw was somehow 'fixed' then we could bring up conspiracy but there is no way to verify that.

The best way to handle this is to look at the protocols and if 3 judges all have the same ordinals in each of the segments of Ice Dance, and others do not then an eyebrow could be raised.

I happen to enjoy both K/N and V/M and look forward to seeing them.

Joe

 

[chuckm]

Joe, there are no ordinals but you can add up the PCS and GOE for each skater from every judge, and then look at what judges are giving high PCS to certain skaters, and lowballing their close competitors.

You are right, though. There doesn't have to be any collusion when the panel is stacked with judges who are certain to be favorable to skaters from one geographic area. And stacking is possible ONLY for skaters in that geographic area, as all the other countries have a maximum of one judge on the panel (if that). The possibility exists that one or more of the USA, CAN and FRA judges won't be on the FD panel.