Adult skaters: How important are jumps?

[bondgirl]

What's wrong with jumps

Maybe I'm hypersensitive to this...but doesn't it seem that skaters are "down" on the jumpers? I mean if you're a good jumper people start picking on your edge quality, spins etc. and start with that "not a complete skater" thing...but a great spinner or someone with good spirals, extention who can't jump for the life of them tends to get a "pass" among other skaters. I mean, they don't get put down for not being able to land a double flip. Is that because the other skaters feel that the good jumpers are being rewarded for their speciality while the good spinners, footworkers, etc. are being unfarily left behind? Or is it a personal jealousy thing because people are usually catagorized by the level of jumps they land? (i.e. an "elite" skater lands triples).
Even at the "elite" level this is true. Look at the way they treated Bonaly and Slutskaya, (always putting down their programs as too athletic and lacking artistry), vs. someone like Cohen who was well know for inconsistancy/problems on her jumps (gushing on about her artistry and how skating is so much more than triples). Even when she fell (TWICE) at the Olympics, Dick Button said he would gladly take the 2 mistakes on the jumps in return for her exquisite artistry. Hummm......

 

[vlaurend]

Maybe I'm hypersensitive to this...but doesn't it seem that skaters are "down" on the jumpers? I mean if you're a good jumper people start picking on your edge quality, spins etc. and start with that "not a complete skater" thing...but a great spinner or someone with good spirals, extention who can't jump for the life of them tends to get a "pass" among other skaters. I mean, they don't get put down for not being able to land a double flip. Is that because the other skaters feel that the good jumpers are being rewarded for their speciality while the good spinners, footworkers, etc. are being unfarily left behind? Or is it a personal jealousy thing because people are usually catagorized by the level of jumps they land? (i.e. an "elite" skater lands triples).
Even at the "elite" level this is true. Look at the way they treated Bonaly and Slutskaya, (always putting down their programs as too athletic and lacking artistry), vs. someone like Cohen who was well know for inconsistancy/problems on her jumps (gushing on about her artistry and how skating is so much more than triples). Even when she fell (TWICE) at the Olympics, Dick Button said he would gladly take the 2 mistakes on the jumps in return for her exquisite artistry. Hummm......

I think you bring up some excellent points. Sure, those who don't have the jumps are envious of those who do (I think that's a no-brainer). On the other hand, I would not say that's the sole reason for picking apart the skating skills of those who can jump but don't do everything else as well. Let's take an example of two good jumpers and a poor jumper:

Surya Bonaly: Strong jumper, but ugly skating. 90% of the program is skating, so how can you ignore the ugly skating?

Alissa Czisny: Gorgeous skating, disastrous jumps. And guess what people remember and talk about? The disastrous jumps. No free ride for Alissa just because everything else is gorgeous.

Mao Asada: Great jumps, great skating, spins and spirals. What do people criticize? The flutz. No criticism of her overall skating just because she has a triple axel and two triple-triples.

Something else to consider is that a skater's artistry is pretty consistent from one performance to the next. When Bonaly or Slutskaya didn't get a high 2nd mark, it wasn't due to some "mistake" they made in their artistry. They always skate like that. Sasha Cohen's jumps wouldn't always work, but if she messed one up, it was a mistake, not how she normally does the jump. Her jumps were gorgeous when she landed them (which, in practices, was almost always).

 

[bondgirl]

Yes, I see your point concerning the elite skaters. I am a great Bonaly fan (of course) and loved her style of skating, but most ice skaters consider her skating style "ugly." (I started on roller, so I really don't see what's so "wrong" with it. It just looks strong/athletic to me... But I know I'm missing something here because too many ice skaters agree on this point.) Do you think this works the same way with the men? (or is it to a much lesser degree?) I mean, Johnny Weir has all the artistry in the world, but Plushenko's jumps ruled. Even Johnny predicted he world win the Olympics. Pretty much the men's event is a battle of jumps (quads). Right?

 

[mskater93]

Actually, men's skating is not a battle of quads. Lambiel consistently in in the top 4 and he often misses or doubles his 3A but all his other elements make up for that miss. His spins are amazing, his other jumps are great and his skating and choreo are awesome.

Bonaly never really seemed to understand how to use her posture and edges to make herself go, instead relying on brute forcing the ice. It looked like she was trying to skate, never letting the ice skate for her, so to speak. Midori Ito was the opposite - she let the ice skate for her which was why she was so darn fast.

As for why jumpers who don't have the rest of the skating often get criticized, well, vlaurend put it well with the fact that jumps consume maybe 20-25% of an entire program and you are left watching ugly skating in between the elements. Sorry, this is a PERFORMANCE sport. We need a performance to go with the jumps.

Also, when you see a skater than can land a double loop as an adult but who can't stroke properly, you wonder why a coach let them progress on jumps without fixing the other things. It's a lot harder to complete the hard elements if your basics aren't good than if they are. It also is more likely to lead to injury.

 

[dlkksk8fan]

For sure, my one training partner has a double sal and a sometimes double toe and she's 50. She skates Gold...

It's good to hear of adult skaters that do doubles. Did your skating partner skate as a kid?

I personally would like to learn my double sal and toe loop. But I have to first learn the flip (I'm working on it), lutz and axel.

 

[bondgirl]

Doesn't Lambiel have a killer quad toe loop? (Yep, you're right. 3 axel is definitely his nemesis!)
Um...not sure about that injury theory......I wear crash pads.

For the sake of the tread, I guess that, as far as adults go, jumps aren't that big of a deal. Just part of an overall package. (If you are competing). Otherwise, they're as important as you want them to be. :agree:

 

[bethissoawesome]

I'm still a young adult (22), and I haven't been skating that long... but, strangely enough, jumps are what come most natural to me. I love the rush and the feeling right as you land and know you are going to stick it. But, at the end of the day, a beautiful spiral and a great foundation in skating skills is what really makes me enjoy watching.

 

[mskater93]

Doesn't Lambiel have a killer quad toe loop? (Yep, you're right. 3 axel is definitely his nemesis!)
Um...not sure about that injury theory......I wear crash pads.

It's not about crash pads, it's about body alignment and awareness that you get from having equivalent basic skills to your jumping ability. Also, good basics will make learning a new jump element easier.

 

[bondgirl]

Jumps, agree to disagree

Too many factors to consider in "wear on the body" argument: Heredity, disease, weight, physical shape, lifestyle etc... Don't worry about me. I'm in pretty good shape.
People keep saying MITF help the jumps, but let's be honest, jump set ups are generally very basic mohawks and 3 turn enterences, (unlesss you're trying to get fancy transitions to get high GOE points). The landings are on an OB edge. That's pretty easy stuff. No need to learn chatows and counters to land a 3 toe loop. Of course body alignment will have to be adequate to land the jump...but if there's a wrap or a deep landing edge or I'm leaning a little forward..... I'm cool with that, as long as the jump landed around on one foot.
Personally, I'd rather land a triple with bad form than a double with perfect form which, I guess, shows a "bad" attitude and is why I don't compete/test. But at the end of the day, this sport is VERY expensive and you have to get out of it what YOU want or else why put your good money down? :scratch:

 

[dlkksk8fan]

People keep saying MITF help the jumps, but let's be honest, jump set ups are generally very basic mohawks and 3 turn enterences, (unlesss you're trying to get fancy transitions to get high GOE points). The landings are on an OB edge. That's pretty easy stuff. No need to learn chatows and counters to land a 3 toe loop.

I have to disagree with you on the MITF. Understanding edges, edge control, body position helps a great deal with jumps. Moves also makes your legs stronger. I can say for myself that my jumps have improved based on my practice of MITF. Basics are always the ground work for great jumps and spins.

 

[bondgirl]

MITF and jumps

Do you lift weights? Or do off ice jumps? These will also improve leg strength, (and aren't as boring). But, seriously, I know people who actually like to do MITF, footwork, dance etc. And that's cool....for them. (Personally, if I was restricted to edgework, I'd take up another sport. But hey, if they like it, good for them). And if MITF helped you, and you don't mind doing them, then great. I only have so much time at the rink, (limited time & money), so I naturally concentrate on what makes me happy....
I know I'm never going to convience anyone, :banging: but you can understand a jump set up pretty well without practicing the required MITF over and over. You just "practice" the move (mohawk or 3 turn) as part of the jump instead of by itself. If you are honestly at the point where your skating can't support a mohawk or 3 turn, then I don't think you're doing too much jumping anyway. The only exception to this is, maybe, the lutz since the counter rotation is tricky. (And 2Lutz is my worst jump. Not suprized are you?) So yeah, you may have something there as it pretains to the lutz. But I'd rather practice the takeoff with the jump than by itself. Too boring. :sheesh:
P.S. Love these faces.

 

[antmanb]

Do you lift weights? Or do off ice jumps? These will also improve leg strength, (and aren't as boring). But, seriously, I know people who actually like to do MITF, footwork, dance etc. And that's cool....for them. (Personally, if I was restricted to edgework, I'd take up another sport. But hey, if they like it, good for them). And if MITF helped you, and you don't mind doing them, then great. I only have so much time at the rink, (limited time & money), so I naturally concentrate on what makes me happy....
I know I'm never going to convience anyone, :banging: but you can understand a jump set up pretty well without practicing the required MITF over and over. You just "practice" the move (mohawk or 3 turn) as part of the jump instead of by itself. If you are honestly at the point where your skating can't support a mohawk or 3 turn, then I don't think you're doing too much jumping anyway. The only exception to this is, maybe, the lutz since the counter rotation is tricky. (And 2Lutz is my worst jump. Not suprized are you?) So yeah, you may have something there as it pretains to the lutz. But I'd rather practice the takeoff with the jump than by itself. Too boring. :sheesh:
P.S. Love these faces.

This thread was far too interesting to pass up the opportunity to comment on it! I first started skating about 5 years ago. I was a huge fan of skating but i watched it for the jumps. I really got into watching skating seriously in about 93/94 and was obsessed with Elvis and the quad toe.

When i first started skating i just wanted to get to the jumping. My basics were pretty poor but i convinced my coach to let me start jumping, bunny hop etc up through to loop. I then hit a wall. I could not land a loop properly. I practised my jumps for as long as i could but bad muscle memory became engrained. I spent less time on basic skating and more on jumps only to make them worse. I went through well over a year of frustration where i could not unlearn my bad habits and even started landing flips with badly two footed and pre-rotated flips, with equally badly pre rotating flutzes.

In the end i nearly gave it all up to return to being a spectator but decided a coaching change might re-invigorate my skating. My new coach took one look at my jumps and told me we'd have to re-learn them. New coach stresses that for every half hour lesson i have we spend 15 mines on basic skating/moves and then 15 mins on either spinning or jumping. The new discipline i have with this structure to my lesson and the fact I take it to my own practice time has meant that i skate faster, i have better balance, which in turn has made my jumps enormously better. Waltz, toe-loop, slachow and loop are all greatly improved. The bad muscle memory on the flip is slowly beginning to go. The most important thing though is that for four years when i stepped onto the ice i never felt as stable as standing on land. Nowadays i can hop right on the ice and start pushing into strong edges and skate around comfortably not needing that 15 mniutes to find my feet.

There is an awful lot to be said about each aspect of skating bringing along all the others and that includes jumps.

Ant

 

[bondgirl]

Well...I guess I'm just using my own experiences to judge. Maybe you are correct as it applies to skating in general, but I'm kind of a "weird case" because I came into ice skating with 10 yrs. of roller (yes, you can do the same jumps on both), so I have TONS of what ice skaters consider "bad habits" (ie. a heck of a leg wrap, flat landings etc.) However, that's how I skate. Not worth relearning it all for me (even if I could), because I'd quit of fustration/bordom. Also there is a bit of rebel in me. Spent months trying to "fix" my leg wrap, then began wondering who made the rule anyway? On roller, wrap is not judged as a "fault." While it makes triples harder to complete, (and therefore the top level rollers generally don't have one), it is not a "fault" in itself as it seems to be on ice. So....wrap is back. And we are happy. :yes:
Although I'm sure the coaches at the rink would have a snyde remark or two to say about my "technique," but then I don't see too many of their students (even the ones who are advanced MITF skaters), landing consistant double jumps, so

 

[dlkksk8fan]

Do you lift weights? Or do off ice jumps? These will also improve leg strength, (and aren't as boring).

Yes I do lift weights and doing squats is pretty boring. I've been practicing my power pulls (part of silver moves) and the strength in my legs are getting stronger. Every move in skating goes back to basics, which helps with everything (spins, jumps, edge work, speed, etc) I happen to like doing MITF (ask me this some time ago when I was working on my bronze moves I would have had a different answer), but I find it a challenge to perfect the moves. It takes a lot of body control, strength & endurance.
One half hour of moves then I'm ready to jump and spin......

 

[Ladskater]

Really?!!! I think ice dancing with a partner would result in much harder falls than from a jump. One accidental pick on the ice or mistiming with your partner could be really nasty, so I thought.

I suppose it could be. I was talking more about ice dancing in general. I used to practice most dances without a partner most of the time - unless I was taking a test. Yes, a fall period no matter what can be jarring.

I think most adult skaters tend to take up ice dance, because jumping can be hard on ones knees and we oldsters are not as flexible as we used to be as youngsters. As already mentioned it depends on the person and their own limitations. Of course, it always pays to see a dr. before starting any kind of exercise to get advice and a check up.

The skater in me still wants to jump when I take to the ice, but the cautious adult who is paying a mortgage says "whoa - wait a minute! better not do it!"

 

[mskater93]

I love to jump as much as the next person, but I want them to be correct and to get full credit when I compete. This is why I have a coach teach me and we don't work on jumps that I might be able to pull off (2Lz, 2A) if I was lucky but am really not ready to be working on because some of the lower level jumps need work (2Lo, 2F). I also found I wasn't taken seriously as a skater and competitor before I passed my Intermediate MIF (even though I can land double jumps) because I didn't SKATE between my elements. There's more to skating than jumping, as much as I didn't want to admit it a few years ago even.

 

[bondgirl]

You're right. That's why I don't compete. Well, one of the reasons, anyway. Seriously, I admire anyone who goes out there. I have horrible stage fright. Competed as a teen and hated every minute of it. Like you wrote, the judges want to see a lot more than a series of jumps. Routines are hard work. Good luck at Nats.
I'm a big chicken. I'll stay on YouTube (where I can edit my stuff and do retakes).

 

[antmanb]

Well...I guess I'm just using my own experiences to judge. Maybe you are correct as it applies to skating in general, but I'm kind of a "weird case" because I came into ice skating with 10 yrs. of roller (yes, you can do the same jumps on both), so I have TONS of what ice skaters consider "bad habits" (ie. a heck of a leg wrap, flat landings etc.) However, that's how I skate. Not worth relearning it all for me (even if I could), because I'd quit of fustration/bordom. Also there is a bit of rebel in me. Spent months trying to "fix" my leg wrap, then began wondering who made the rule anyway? On roller, wrap is not judged as a "fault." While it makes triples harder to complete, (and therefore the top level rollers generally don't have one), it is not a "fault" in itself as it seems to be on ice. So....wrap is back. And we are happy. :yes:
Although I'm sure the coaches at the rink would have a snyde remark or two to say about my "technique," but then I don't see too many of their students (even the ones who are advanced MITF skaters), landing consistant double jumps, so

Well the only real thing that matters is that you enjoy your skating and that you are happy that you are getting everything you want out of it. Like you say unless you have aspirations to land triples then there isn't really need a need to correct the wrap you have on jumps.

I guess the point of my story was that i never (until recently) thought that i could enjoy the "boring" stuff until i hit a wall past which i could not progress with my jumps. Now i get just as big a kick out of successly doing a length worth of alternating double brackets as i do when i land a flip. And i also realise that if i do ever start trying double jumps i just don't think i'll ever be impressed with my execution of them as much as i might about say an excellently centred fast spin.

Ant

 

[bondgirl]

Good point!! Didn't realize how difficult it is to do a "real" (Lambiel-style) scratch spin. I figured it can't be that hard, it's just a fast upright....um, right
Even the senior at my rink doesn't do a "real" one. In fact, I don't think I've seen anyone do a good blur scratch except on TV or at shows. I've seen a few Beilmans from ultra-flexible kids at the rink, but not the blur scratch.....
That's one of the problems with spins...There isn't a "clear" hierachy as in jumps, (maybe in ISJ points, but not one that the general public can understand). For example: axel, 2sal, 2toe, 2loop, 2flip, 2lutz, 2axel etc. But spins are more subjective: Is a fast blur "harder" than a Bielman? A Bielman is considered an "elite" spin, but it's mainly just a contortionist move...so is it really skill or just good flexability (which at that level is something you're more or less born/gifted with. Look at Kwan and Meissner. Great skaters. No Bielman). Or is a blur more of a test of skill since the position is obtainable by everyone? (I think so.)
As for thread, I think that's why people sometimes measure their "success" by the jumps they land....because of the "hierachary." Spins is so subjective it's harder to use them as a standard. (Of course, of you compete and understand the ISJ you can use the levels to get an idea...but for most of us that's like a form of rocket science. Is it a level 2? , 3? ...oh, forget it.)

 

[mskater93]

IJS isn't rocket science. It took me about 25 minutes of reading the ISU communications to understand what constitutes levels (depends on numbers of features and understanding what constitutes a feature) for spins, footwork, and spirals. It only took me that long because it was written by someone who obviously learned English as a second (or third) language and was buried somewhere in the middle of the communication.

Competing and testing fright is something that can be worked through. It's a matter of understanding and controlling the cause/response to the fear and being totally prepared so that a program or moves are almost second nature when you get in front of the panel. If you aren't prepared, it won't go as well.

I think I will be just as excited to pass my Novice MIF this year as I will when I land a 2Lz (which will probably be around the same time). I actually think testing is harder than competing as it's against an absolute standard whereas competition is relative and your best could be last today and a worse skate could be first next week, it just depends.