Ladies Long Program

[inskate]

Congrats, GS posters, you made the Korean TV!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iZE4-nUJh0

They copied the comments from GS regarding the +1GoE for Flutz (not caring that it didn't count for the final scores) and "skipping the choreo" (not caring that after 3A there's usually not much choreo, just set up for 3F3T). Also quoted an interview claiming that Caro was overmarked (I feel bad for her. Not her fault the CoP works in mysterious ways sometimes), and the entire S/S vs. Zhangs controversy.

 

[Mathman]

That was funny. It's nice to see that we aren't the only ones b*****ing and moaning about the judges, LOL.

 

[dizzydi7]

When Kimmie considered it a great feat that she managed to stay upright during the SP it kind of tells one that shes finished before it starts. Shes lucky that the 2006 Worlds was a post Olympic affair without much competition although some think Fumie should have got the gold. Two slots in next years Worlds in LA. ((

I've mentioned this before as I believe that Kimmie Meissner is one of the luckiest figure skaters I've seen in a long time. She was very lucky at the World Championship after the Olympics. She did skate well but luck played a huge part in that win. Again she was lucky when she won the National title, as Emily was so very close behind. Again she is very, very lucky to represent the U.S. at this World competition.

Lady luck has been with her all along. What she needs now is to conquer her mental demons. If what I've heard is true that she has excellent practices, then her problems are mental, which I believe is the single hardest thing to fix.

Dizzy

 

[hikki]

Sour?

Congrats, GS posters, you made the Korean TV!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iZE4-nUJh0

They copied the comments from GS regarding the +1GoE for Flutz (not caring that it didn't count for the final scores) and "skipping the choreo" (not caring that after 3A there's usually not much choreo, just set up for 3F3T). Also quoted an interview claiming that Caro was overmarked (I feel bad for her. Not her fault the CoP works in mysterious ways sometimes), and the entire S/S vs. Zhangs controversy.

Bless the gracious Koreans. Come on, Yu-na had a fair share of "controversial win(s)" this season. I bet they didn't complain then. Did the media of the "victims" run a report like this? No. Did this "news repoart" meantion Yu-na WON the freeskate? Some might argue Yuna should've finished 4th behind Yukari.

This sort of whine-till-we-get-our-way attitude really puts me off, especially when done as a national campaign. Well I guess it worked before...

Congrats on Yu-na for her gutsy performances.

 

[rtureck]

Congrats to gold, silver and broze medalists. I just noticed that we have a podium with speed, and wonderful basic skating skills, and edges.

 

[AwesomeIce]

Nagasu grew like, what? 4 inches over the past year? Whatever she did to keep training definitely worked. =]

Yeah, but she's had no growth in the boobs-butt-hips department. Lets see how great she does once she has to deal with puberty.

 

[mizu_iro]

Yeah, but she's had no growth in the boobs-butt-hips department. Lets see how great she does once she has to deal with puberty.

Has anybody seen pictures of Mirai's parents? I know plenty of Japanese ladies who are in their thirties or forties and have never had curves their entire lives.

 

[Medusa]

Has anybody seen pictures of Mirai's parents? I know plenty of Japanese ladies who are in their thirties or forties and have never had curves their entire lives.

Well, I got a Chinese friend whose parents are 5 feet and weigh about 110 pounds each - and she is my height with 5 feet 6 and my weight with 130 pounds.

So it may not even be enough to take a look at their parents.

But even if she develops curves - look at Arakawa, she definitely has curves but those TripleTriples were amazing, I actually had the feeling that she was so strong on her jumps because of her strong legs.

 

[Laine]

From this post, I doubt you watched Mao's FS. Or perhaps you dislike Mao so much that a maximum 13 sec gap with her regrouping right back into the choreography (which normally would have been the usual stroking *anyway*) seems to be 20-30 secs to you. Watch the video again and comment please. The bias is so obvious.

I disagree entirely with you on this subject that fall reduced that part of her program to what looked like a practice run through of their program where they only stroke around until their jump placement. Bias is what kept her PCS so high considering this error.

 

[rain]

I disagree entirely with you on this subject that fall reduced that part of her program to what looked like a practice run through of their program where they only stroke around until their jump placement. Bias is what kept her PCS so high considering this error.

I actually agree with you about how entirely disruptive the fall was. My problem here is that there isn't any place in the PCS to really reflect this, is there? Like with the Zhangs' fall at the Olympics (and ridiculous silver), I think a fall of this sort, which is markedly different from a fall where a skater just bounces back up, should require some kind of deduction in the PCS mark. It took Mao a loooong time to get back into her program. She was actually pretty fortunate that the fall took place right at the beginning of the program, as she had a good long stretch to make the judges forget about it before putting up her marks — and kudos to her for attacking the rest of the program and putting the fall behind her.

And no, I'm not a hater. In fact, I don't dispute Asada's gold here. Overall, she probably had the combined best performance between short and long. Though I also thought her first 3/3 in the long should have been downgraded for underrotation as well, though it was not as blatant as the second, for which she was dinged. But it's not like Kostner put in a better performance so....

 

[gold12345]

Originally Posted by Mathman
......(c) The scoring system encourages skaters to try a lot of things that they know they can't do, secure in the knowledge that the scoring system will reward the attempt more than the actual execution. This, too, is a disaster for the sport, IMHO.

Exactly. As long as you rotate the jump, at least in the judges' eyes, you will get rewarded. You could fall on your butt (or face), put your hand down, and stumble out of the landing, but as long as you rotate it and take off the right edge, it's all good.

 

[hazey]

Exactly. As long as you rotate the jump, at least in the judges' eyes, you will get rewarded. You could fall on your butt (or face), put your hand down, and stumble out of the landing, but as long as you rotate it and take off the right edge, it's all good.

Not sure which skaters are being referred to here, but it is entirely possible that some skaters are able to land difficult elements in practice, but have problems translating that performance to competition. Why should they give up attempting what they can do so well in practice? Athletes all want to give their best in competition. It's the spirit of sport. Besides, I think there's a lack of understanding about statistics and uncertainty here. Landing a jump is never a 100% thing, it's like, 7 out of 10 attempts - frequency. Who's to say that they shouldn't include a difficult element in their programs that they have been working on so they can get better on it (and have experience attempting it in competition) for later seasons?

I look at figure skating primarily as a sport. I love the technical parts and I think that sacrificing difficulty for a clean skate (to make the audience happy) is a cop out. If a skater is able to skate a program clean throughout the entire season, with only the easier elements, I'd be disappointed that she/he wasn't being challenged. What a waste.

 

[hazey]

I actually agree with you about how entirely disruptive the fall was. My problem here is that there isn't any place in the PCS to really reflect this, is there? Like with the Zhangs' fall at the Olympics (and ridiculous silver), I think a fall of this sort, which is markedly different from a fall where a skater just bounces back up, should require some kind of deduction in the PCS mark. It took Mao a loooong time to get back into her program. She was actually pretty fortunate that the fall took place right at the beginning of the program, as she had a good long stretch to make the judges forget about it before putting up her marks — and kudos to her for attacking the rest of the program and putting the fall behind her.

Thank you. My point is, Asada was not given a pcs gift despite her fall and taking time to come back. There is simply no component of pcs that can ding what happened in the program. And I don't think that there should be. I think that the "disruptiveness" is entirely subjective and very audience-centered.
Having the "disruption" at the beginning did not mean that her pcs was not affected because the judges "forgot" what happened. In junior worlds (or was it JGPF), Asada's bootlace came loose after a combo jump in the short program. She had to skate to the judges, get them to stop the music and lace her boots up. That was much more disruptive than falling flat and taking less than 15 seconds to get back into the program. Still, she wasn't dinged. I guess judges take the view that accidents happen on the ice, and if your "disruption" doesn't affect a specific element in pcs or tes, you don't get the deduction.

Contentious decision - yes. Whether the "disruptiveness" results in a pcs knock or not - there will be people on both sides of the argument. I'm for the current situation, you're not. It's fine.

 

[rain]

Thank you. My point is, Asada was not given a pcs gift despite her fall and taking time to come back. There is simply no component of pcs that can ding what happened in the program. And I don't think that there should be. I think that the "disruptiveness" is entirely subjective and very audience-centered.
Having the "disruption" at the beginning did not mean that her pcs was not affected because the judges "forgot" what happened. In junior worlds (or was it JGPF), Asada's bootlace came loose after a combo jump in the short program. She had to skate to the judges, get them to stop the music and lace her boots up. That was much more disruptive than falling flat and taking less than 15 seconds to get back into the program. Still, she wasn't dinged. I guess judges take the view that accidents happen on the ice, and if your "disruption" doesn't affect a specific element in pcs or tes, you don't get the deduction.

Contentious decision - yes. Whether the "disruptiveness" results in a pcs knock or not - there will be people on both sides of the argument. I'm for the current situation, you're not. It's fine.

It's perfectly fine. I don't think it's as subjective as all that though. We all know when we see it if someone bounces back up from a fall immediately, or if it takes them several long minutes, so to speak, to get back into the program. One should be considered a more serious fault than the other. It cannot be considered a technical one if there are no elements missed post-fall with the gap, hence if we are to recognize the difference it must be in the PCS score.

I must disagree with your example of the bootlace incident as being comparable. Serious costume malfunctions that pose a potential danger to the skater's safety, some nut running out onto the ice, your music dying all of a sudden — these are not considered faults of the skater. Falling in the middle of the program is entirely the skater's responsibility. That's why one disruption should be hit with a deduction, while the other is not. "Acts of God," so to speak, are not, and should not be punished per se, however it is tough for the skater to find the thread of the program again and get back the audience — including the judges to create the overall impression they wanted — so it's not entirely without consequence.

 

[hazey]

It's perfectly fine. I don't think it's as subjective as all that though. We all know when we see it if someone bounces back up from a fall immediately, or if it takes them several long minutes, so to speak, to get back into the program. One should be considered a more serious fault than the other. It cannot be considered a technical one if there are no elements missed post-fall with the gap, hence if we are to recognize the difference it must be in the PCS score.

I must disagree with your example of the bootlace incident as being comparable. Serious costume malfunctions that pose a potential danger to the skater's safety, some nut running out onto the ice, your music dying all of a sudden — these are not considered faults of the skater. Falling in the middle of the program is entirely the skater's responsibility. That's why one disruption should be hit with a deduction, while the other is not. "Acts of God," so to speak, are not, and should not be punished per se, however it is tough for the skater to find the thread of the program again and get back the audience — including the judges to create the overall impression they wanted — so it's not entirely without consequence.

I re-watched Asada's fs and I realised that there is entirely no way she could have got back up "less disruptively".
When you expect a skater to get right back up and continue in say, 1 second, you must be talking about a fall-on-your-butt like Sasha Cohen's olympic fs. Asada fell harder than that, slipped on the ice and crashed into the boards. After which, she *did* get right back up, and what? - skated in one small circle to get into position with the music. She did not take anything close to "several long minutes". That's what I find laughable - those who claim that the pause was disruptive always exaggerate the length of the time it took Asada to fall in line with the music. Watch the fs again, you'll see that from the position where she fell, she could not immediately spring back into position unless she could teleport herself. So she skated one quick circle and found her position in, for goodness' sake, less than 15 seconds. So what, a skater has to take responsibility for the severity of her fall? Or the slippery ice that makes her crash into the boards? Entirely laughable.

EDIT: From the clues of comments like "20-30 seconds" and "several long minutes" - I think it could be human variation in experiencing relativity of time. *shrug*

 

[sorcerer]

...I kinda felt like she withdrew more from psychological than physical distress. ...and one gave up totally, and the other persisted and came out a champion...

I post this because many may have felt like feraina did about Miki without the following information. (So feraina must not be blamed.)

In the broadcast yesterday, Fuji TV showed Miki heading for her LP, with Morozov walking by her side and constantly telling her something. Miki kept shaking her head sideways countless times to his words, her serious face showing grave determination.
They reached the rinkside, and Morozov kept talking to her for such an unusual long time before the start. Miki kept on shaking her head, responded a few words, and then Morozov said something to which she finally nodded with tears in her eyes.

I got the information that today Fuji aired the story from the coach's side.
Morozov, judging Miki's physical situation in her 6 minutes warm-up and much worried of her muscle damage, was persistently telling her to withdraw, all through this to the very last moment.
Miki's only response at the rinkside was her compromise that she would do as Morozov says when and if she falters her jumps three times.
The reporter said that Morosov's final words in compromise to Miki was; No, one jump failure and you must immediately withdraw!

Miki never revealed this in her interviews done afterwards.
What she said in tears was mostly her apology to her fans and those who supported her, for not being able to perform her program.
Even when the interviewer asked about the conversations everyone got curious of, she transformed the question into a softer reply. She was obviously guarding Morozov.

So what I post here may be against Miki's wish.
But it's already known in Japan, so let me make this shared by Miki fans worldwide.
Miki, forgive me, but I think I'm doing the right thing.

...
She could not continue the morning practice for more than ten minutes, could do no jumps, her muscle re-torn a little.
Morosov talked her into withdrawing not to damage her muscle any further, he was very much afraid of it, but she had a very strong feeling towards showing whatever was left that she can do in that circumstance, to thank her fans and her staffs through her skating. They discussed for quite a while.

So though JSF prepared the withdrawal form to submit to the ISU, she refused to sign it. For her It was not a matter of winning or losing, but a matter of what she had promised to herself. (< sorcerer's translation of her words "nattoku-ga-ikanakatta". I think she knew well that she would probably make a disaster of herself.)

JSF stated that they would let her on the ice for the 6 minutes warm-up, and will decide after how she does there.

The doctor gave her a temporary pain remedy, but it only worked for a jump or two in the warm-up.

 

[inskate]

I re-watched Asada's fs and I realised that there is entirely no way she could have got back up "less disruptively".
When you expect a skater to get right back up and continue in say, 1 second, you must be talking about a fall-on-your-butt like Sasha Cohen's olympic fs. Asada fell harder than that, slipped on the ice and crashed into the boards.
(...) That's what I find laughable - those who claim that the pause was disruptive always exaggerate the length of the time it took Asada to fall in line with the music. Watch the fs again, you'll see that from the position where she fell, she could not immediately spring back into position unless she could teleport herself.

Quoted for truth.

Also, OMG, poor Miki. My heart breaks for her. She went through so much - media bashing after the Olympics, never-ending injuries, skating through pain... And yet this season she ended up being accused of lack of consistency and motivation. Seriously, how consistent can you skate with a shoulder that is threatening to dislocate at every second and other injuries?
IMHO, the wisest thing for her would be to take a year off after her Worlds win, undergo surgery and heal completely. But she never wanted to disappoint her fans... That she still tried to hide her injury and skate when her body was giving up on her... Just heart-breaking. She's a true fighter, and a true champion. That she still attempted and landed 3-3s and quads in such condition... How great she could be if she was completely healthy.!

I pray that she will be able to recover and skate with such a joy as she did at Dreams on Ice 2006 and in Galas after her Worlds win.

 

[rain]

I re-watched Asada's fs and I realised that there is entirely no way she could have got back up "less disruptively".
When you expect a skater to get right back up and continue in say, 1 second, you must be talking about a fall-on-your-butt like Sasha Cohen's olympic fs. Asada fell harder than that, slipped on the ice and crashed into the boards. After which, she *did* get right back up, and what? - skated in one small circle to get into position with the music. She did not take anything close to "several long minutes". That's what I find laughable - those who claim that the pause was disruptive always exaggerate the length of the time it took Asada to fall in line with the music. Watch the fs again, you'll see that from the position where she fell, she could not immediately spring back into position unless she could teleport herself. So she skated one quick circle and found her position in, for goodness' sake, less than 15 seconds. So what, a skater has to take responsibility for the severity of her fall? Or the slippery ice that makes her crash into the boards? Entirely laughable.

EDIT: From the clues of comments like "20-30 seconds" and "several long minutes" - I think it could be human variation in experiencing relativity of time. *shrug*

That's exactly my point. Her fall was a much more severe one in that she was unable to continue her choreography without a very noticeable gap. And yes, the skater does take responsibility for the severity of their fall — though I admit, Asada's was a weird one. And hey, it's not like I don't think she should have won. I just think her fall brought up a very interesting point — what happens when a skater loses the thread and misses choreography that does not include an element? Does it matter at all? My answer is yes, it does.

And yes, I realize she wasn't out of it for 5 minutes, I'm speaking in relative terms — like when a skater is having a meltdown it seems as if the program is 20 minutes long (and no, I'm not implying Asada had anything of the kind).

Anyway, there's now a thread for this discussion, but I wanted to reply to you where you had posted.

 

[dizzydi7]

Carolina Kostner!

Holy Cow! After watching the TV coverage of the ladies long program I can honestly say that Carolina, in my opinion, did not deserve the silver medal. What a sloppy mess of a program. Her spirals were terrible and the long 4 to 5 second delay on the entrance to almost all her jumps is amateurish.

Yuna should have received the silver medal. If I were judging, Carolina would not have made it near the podium.

Dizzy

 

[nghtvsn]

Can someone explain W...T...F... happened to Nakano's scoring?

I'm just so pissed right now after watching this program I'm thinking with a big freaking headache after this.

How does one go out and have a magnificent superb skate like that with excellent landings on E-v-ery-thing and yet end up in 4th? Get a 56 in Technical. She did a f'ing 3x and hit everything in her program. I'm at a loss. I'm so sick of ice skating at this particular moment. I DON"T UNDERSTAND THIS CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WTH does Nakano have to do to get freaking respect?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGHHH
HHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for letting me vent.