Coaches' Corner

[BlissfulSynergy]

The debate would be a lot better if she wasn’t being blamed for things she didn’t even do or wasn’t involved in.

This would be true, if it was clear exactly what Eteri has been involved in directly or indirectly. If you have direct, irrefutable knowledge of what Eteri should and should not be 'blamed for,' kudos to you.

Her detractors just want to hear that she is a living, soulless devil 24/7/365.

Indulging in exaggerated utterances such as this makes you part of the back-and-forth arguments and debates you are decrying and claiming you are 'bored' with.

 

[alexocfp]

This would be true, if it was clear exactly what Eteri has been involved in directly or indirectly. If you have direct, irrefutable knowledge of what Eteri should and should not be 'blamed for,' kudos to you.

This is an easy question to answer.
Her methods get blamed for a higher injury rate.

Meanwhile, the Japanese champion, a former US champion, the Austrian champion, and countless others have also been injured and or retired, yet nobody seems to do a deep dive or make judgements on those coaches. And they have much less people that they are working with.

I’m not the smartest person in the world and like to keep things simple. At this point in the game, you know what you are getting training with her, so it’s up to the parents and the skater if they want to go there or not. And if you go there and see it’s not for you, leave.

But even those high profile defectors returned, so it seems she must be doing something right.

And everyone focuses on those that didn’t ascend to the very top of the mountain.

I like to focus more on what the results seen when you get the model skater and the best coach: You get GOAT Anna.

The most mentally tough, hardest working, huge hearted and desire to win at all costs skater, guided by Eteri, produced magic.

 

[macy]

Meanwhile, the Japanese champion, a former US champion, the Austrian champion, and countless others have also been injured and or retired, yet nobody seems to do a deep dive or make judgements on those coaches. And they have much less people that they are working with.

you're comparing apples to oranges. this comparison doesn't make sense here.

just because skaters from other countries, all with different coaches, are/have been injured says nothing. this is elite figure skating- it's incredibly hard on the body and the risk of injury is high just doing doubles or triples. however, none of these coaches have a nonstop conveyer belt of students who crumble like dominos one after the next with serious, oftentimes career ending injures. all 18 or under.

it's also important to note skaters like Bradie and Alysa got seriously injured trying to keep up with a nation of skaters who are following a dishonest and unreachable/unsustainable norm.

 

[alexocfp]

This would be true, if it was clear exactly what Eteri has been involved in directly or indirectly. If you have direct, irrefutable knowledge of what Eteri should and should not be 'blamed for,' kudos to you.



Indulging in exaggerated utterances such as this makes you part of the back-and-forth arguments and debates you are decrying and claiming you are 'bored' with.

You only quoted half of my paragraph. “Which means her supporters just dig in more, which means there is no starting point to have a good conversation”

So I already took my share of the blame right off the top for the conversation going in circles.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

This is an easy question to answer.
Her methods get blamed for a higher injury rate.

Meanwhile, the Japanese champion, a former US champion, the Austrian champion, and countless others have also been injured and or retired, yet nobody seems to do a deep dive or make judgements on those coaches. And they have much less people that they are working with.

I’m not the smartest person in the world and like to keep things simple. At this point in the game, you know what you are getting training with her, so it’s up to the parents and the skater if they want to go there or not. And if you go there and see it’s not for you, leave.

But even those high profile defectors returned, so it seems she must be doing something right.

And everyone focuses on those that didn’t ascend to the very top of the mountain.

I like to focus more on what the results seen when you get the model skater and the best coach: You get GOAT Anna.

The most mentally tough, hardest working, huge hearted and desire to win at all costs skater, guided by Eteri, produced magic.

Ahhh okay. You place value on Eteri's coaching methods, based on her results, which you describe as 'producing magic.'

Does that 'magic' and those results come without some questionable practices related to training, diet, and use of banned substances to enhance endurance?

And still, you haven't truly articulated what you know irrefutably, without a doubt, that Eteri is blameless of. None of us can know that, unless there is a full, thorough, above-board, unprejudiced and reliable investigation, which is unlikely to happen.

 

[alexocfp]

you're comparing apples to oranges. this comparison doesn't make sense here.

just because skaters from other countries, all with different coaches, are/have been injured says nothing. this is elite figure skating- it's incredibly hard on the body and the risk of injury is high just doing doubles or triples. however, none of these coaches have a nonstop conveyer belt of students who crumble like dominos one after the next with serious, oftentimes career ending injures. all 18 or under.

it's also important to note skaters like Bradie and Alysa got seriously injured trying to keep up with a nation of skaters who are following a dishonest and unreachable/unsustainable norm.

Nonstop conveyor belt is another way to say that she is doing enough right that there are people beating down her door to get coached by her and her team. When you have a 100 skaters, some will get hurt doing this. It’s unfortunate but it’s just the reality of the situation.

So if someone gets injured at Eteri’s it’s Eteri’s fault. But if someone gets injured not at Eteri’s it’s not that coaches fault but “the system” Eteri facilitates.

This is exactly the kind of double standard I’m talking about. Eteri, in a roundabout way, is getting blamed for the American, Japanese and Austrian’s skaters getting hurt.

 

[alexocfp]

Ahhh okay. You place value on Eteri's coaching methods, based on her results, which you describe as 'producing magic.'

Does that 'magic' and those results come without some questionable practices related to training, diet, and use of banned substances to enhance endurance?

And still, you haven't truly articulated what you know irrefutably, without a doubt, that Eteri is blameless of. None of us can know that, unless there is a full, thorough, above-board, unprejudiced and reliable investigation, which is unlikely to happen.

I have. Eteri is 1000% blameless for the injuries that occur in America or Japan.

Eteri is blameless for people volunteering to come to her school. You want her to teach you, you do it her way. If not, leave or don’t go there to begin with.

Questionable is in the eye of the beholder. You don’t become a legend by not doing things a normal person does. I’ll let the parents and skaters answer if the tactics are questionable.

Unless people think they are better parents than the skaters’ parents or are better decision makers than the skaters themselves.

I’m not a parent of the skater or the skater themselves. I leave it up to them to decide to go there or not. I’m not the voice of the skater or coach.

I’m a fan that will watch the product presented to me. Don’t care about how it got there. I’m not the moral compass of the sport. Especially when the skaters and their parents have decided that that is the route they want to take. Let the skaters and parents make their own decisions.

I don’t care how the Japanese or American or South Korean coaches operate. If they have a skater I like, I will watch. It’s not complicated for me, I have no moral dilemmas to deal with.

If Eteri stops coaching or doesn’t present a product I like anymore, I’ll just move on to someone else.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Nonstop conveyor belt is another way to say that she is doing enough right that there are people beating down her door to get coached by her and her team...

I don't think you should equate results achieved by questionable practices, as Eteri "doing something right." It's just that as @icewhite mentioned earlier, many people in the sport condone, uphold, reward, and look the other way, for whatever reason. Maybe it's because they enjoy watching these young ladies, no matter the cost, twirling multiple revolutions in previously unseen fashion. Yes, there's certainly pleasure and satisfaction many find in these on-the-ice performances. So, for some, it's apparently easy to close their eyes to how those performances and results are achieved. Look at the puppets' feats and not at the strings being pulled by the puppet master.

The fact that other skaters and their parents are "beating down the doors" to be accepted into Eteri's camp is likely due to a variety of reasons, with the major one being the possibility of reaching the top of the totem pole, against many odds since there's so much competition in Russia, and even achieving the pinnacle of success has been very fleeting, and accompanied by huge downsides, unless you're fortunate to remain relatively unscathed like Zagitova, and possibly Shcherbakova. I can't name anyone else though, vs the long list of those who did not go unscathed.

Eteri, in a roundabout way, is getting blamed for the American, Japanese and Austrian’s skaters getting hurt.

Again you are trying to absolve Eteri by deflecting and conflating. Eteri is only responsible for her own skaters. The sport and those in charge of running it, are responsible for the directions and misdirections the various disciplines and the sport as a whole, are headed toward.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I have. Eteri is 1000% blameless for the injuries that occur in America or Japan.

Eteri is blameless for people volunteering to come to her school. You want her to teach you, you do it her way. If not, leave or don’t go there to begin with.

Questionable is in the eye of the beholder. You don’t become a legend by not doing things a normal person does. I’ll let the parents and skaters answer if the tactics are questionable.

Unless people think they are better parents than the skaters’ parents or are better decision makers than the skaters themselves.

I’m not a parent of the skater or the skater themselves. I leave it up to them to decide to go there or not. I’m not the voice of the skater or coach.

I’m a fan that will watch the product presented to me. Don’t care about how it got there. I’m not the moral compass of the sport. Especially when the skaters and their parents have decided that that is the route they want to take. Let the skaters and parents make their own decisions.

I don’t care how the Japanese or American or South Korean coaches operate. If they have a skater I like, I will watch. It’s not complicated for me, I have no moral dilemmas to deal with.

If Eteri stops coaching or doesn’t present a product I like anymore, I’ll just move on to someone else.

Great. You just confirmed my observations in my previous post.

 

[alexocfp]

Great. You just confirmed my observations in my previous post.

I’ve always been consistent about this.

If people and their parents voluntarily want to do it, I have no problems watching.

I don’t think I ever hid that part.

Eteri can be “X” in this case.

In a more extreme example, the Isle of Mann TT is one of the motorsport events I most look forward too. I couldn’t even imagine doing something like that myself, but if others want to, so be it.

Just because someone doesn’t like how the skaters or their coaches approach things, doesn’t mean it’s wrong or they shouldn’t be able to do it.

 

[macy]

Nonstop conveyor belt is another way to say that she is doing enough right that there are people beating down her door to get coached by her and her team. When you have a 100 skaters, some will get hurt doing this. It’s unfortunate but it’s just the reality of the situation.

So if someone gets injured at Eteri’s it’s Eteri’s fault. But if someone gets injured not at Eteri’s it’s not that coaches fault but “the system.” Eteri facilitates.

This is exactly the kind of double standard I’m talking about. Eteri, in a roundabout way, is getting blamed for the American, Japanese and Austrian’s skaters getting hurt.

"nonstop conveyor belt" is evidence of nothing else other than Russian children and their parents wanting to win medals at absolutely any cost including the high risk of career ending injury associated with training with Eteri, overtraining, training through injuries, malnourishment, and dishonest methods.

this isn't "someone", this is literally most of her top skaters over the last several years who either outwardly spoke of Eteri's abusive methods and left her, and/or experienced serious injury while training with her.

i don't see any double standard here, just certain people looking the other direction and refusing to acknowledge reality per usual.

 

[alexocfp]

"nonstop conveyor belt" is evidence of nothing else other than Russian children and their parents wanting to win medals at absolutely any cost including the high risk of career ending injury associated with training with Eteri, overtraining, training through injuries, malnourishment, and dishonest methods.

this isn't "someone", this is literally most of her top skaters over the last several years who either spoke of Eteri's abusive methods and left her, and/or experienced serious injury while training with her.

i don't see any double standard here, just certain people looking the other direction and refusing to acknowledge reality per usual.

Eteri is not responsible for what happens in American rinks. Period.

Yes, some people want to win medals at all costs. You don’t, fine, but why do you want to stop them? Why should their lives follow the rules you have for yourself? You live your life (and may you live to be 100), and let them live theirs. At this point, they know how Eteri does things. And they choose to go down that road.

Some people place medals and accolades above all else. We need to respect that.

How many skaters that left her returned?

Those skaters were happy to have her when they were winning, but once they got hurt and were replaced by better skaters, all of a sudden the coach was to blame. She was so bad that they willingly returned for another shot at medals.

Also, her top most successful skaters currently, haven’t said a word.

Anna, hasn’t said a word. Goes a long way in explaining why she has been this successful.

Complaining after the fact is definitely less credible that complaining while you are winning.

 

[macy]

Eteri is not responsible for what happens in American rinks. Period.

Yes, some people want to win medals at all costs. You don’t, fine, but why do you want to stop them? Why should their lives follow the rules you have for yourself? You live your life (and may you live to be 100), and let them live theirs. At this point, they know how Eteri does things. And they choose to go down that road.

Some people place medals and accolades above all else. We need to respect that.

How many skaters that left her returned?

Those skaters were happy to have her when they were winning, but once they got hurt and were replaced by better skaters, all of a sudden the coach was to blame. She was so bad that they willingly returned for another shot at medals.

Also, her top most successful skaters currently, haven’t said a word.

Anna, hasn’t said a word. Goes a long way in explaining why she has been this successful.

Complaining after the fact is definitely less credible that complaining while you are winning.

this is delusional.

and also my cue to exit this thread.

 

[4everchan]

Young students do not always have the maturity and the perspective to make enlightened choices (and parents, are often clueless). There is a lot of denial when it comes to studying with a coach that has success but also, may have dubious training methods. It's not only in figure skating. It happens in many other sports and fields.

The issue I see in this particular case is exactly that : because there is a large pool of talent, not every skater really matters... training methods can aim at creating winners but don't need to nurture the athletes in all aspect of sport, including physical health and mental health. What this creates, is exactly what has been witnessed... winners- yes, shorter careers- yes, and many many injured kids. It puts the coach above the athlete... not the other way around. The athletes serve the coach instead of the coach serving the athletes. Fine, the winner may feel that they received good and optimal coaching. But the other 99 kids ? Nope.. because this culture in coaching has only ONE goal... Winning, and doing so as fast and quickly as possible.

In some other parts of the world, the pool of talent is limited. Athletes have to be nurtured and cared for. Yes, injuries can always happen. It's a dangerous sport after all. However, there are places where having fun, being healthy while practicing an elite sport, and personal and human growth are valued. It's a cultural shift that is definitely happening. I see it also happening in other fields (like performing arts). One can simply look at emerging talent from countries where healthy methods are used... In the long term, it does create better artists and longer careers.

The child prodigy culture is definitely not something sustainable... It has always been impressive for people to see kids play a Rachmaninoff concerto or jump a quad at a tender age... but everyone grows up... and aiming to work in a different learning curve creates better artists and healthier athletes... I am convinced that coaches can evolve and adapt their learning curve... Some do so... Some just don't care to do so. They know one and only one way to make it work.

I am okay with people fantasizing about child prodigies in some disciplines.. not my cup of tea.

However, I am not okay with children getting hurt physically and psychologically, and in figure skating, the child prodigy culture is particularly dangerous.

 

[icewhite]

I don't blame Eteri for what happens with other skaters. The sport as a whole has a problem there and Eteri alone vanishing won't solve these problems.
But I do blame her for what happens to her own skaters. Kids are not responsible for these decisions. If I thought they were capable of making such decisions on their own I would advocate for marriage for every age and legal sex with adults for every age as long as it is "consential". Children can be exploited and they might not even realize what happens. Even as adults they might think it was "good for them", like many adults who were beaten as children think that it "didn't do them any harm", when actually research shows it did. They might think it is normal because the adults around them treat it like that. They might be persuaded and educated to always blame themselves. They might think that that is the only way they will get love and attention. That's why there need to be rules and laws in place to protect them. We cannot equal their will with that of grown-ups. The grown ups need to take care of them, and that also sometimes means keeping them from what they want, but especially not forcing or pushing them to do things that are unhealthy for them. Yes, many of those skaters are failed by their parents just as well, by society, by media, by feds. That doesn't mean the coach has no responsibility, on the contrary, the coach has special responsibility to take care that the sport harms body and mind of the underage skater as least as possible.
But of course if you aren't interested in morals and how results are achieved you are indeed free of such thoughts. People not being interested in whether abuse happens doesn't make abuse anything else but abuse though.

 

[icewhite]

Young students do not always have the maturity and the perspective to make enlightened choices (and parents, are often clueless). There is a lot of denial when it comes to studying with a coach that has success but also, may have dubious training methods. It's not only in figure skating. It happens in many other sports and fields.

The issue I see in this particular case is exactly that : because there is a large pool of talent, not every skater really matters... training methods can aim at creating winners but don't need to nurture the athletes in all aspect of sport, including physical health and mental health. What this creates, is exactly what has been witnessed... winners- yes, shorter careers- yes, and many many injured kids. It puts the coach above the athlete... not the other way around. The athletes serve the coach instead of the coach serving the athletes. Fine, the winner may feel that they received good and optimal coaching. But the other 99 kids ? Nope.. because this culture in coaching has only ONE goal... Winning, and doing so as fast and quickly as possible.

In some other parts of the world, the pool of talent is limited. Athletes have to be nurtured and cared for. Yes, injuries can always happen. It's a dangerous sport after all. However, there are places where having fun, being healthy while practicing an elite sport, and personal and human growth are valued. It's a cultural shift that is definitely happening. I see it also happening in other fields (like performing arts). One can simply look at emerging talent from countries where healthy methods are used... In the long term, it does create better artists and longer careers.

The child prodigy culture is definitely not something sustainable... It has always been impressive for people to see kids play a Rachmaninoff concerto or jump a quad at a tender age... but everyone grows up... and aiming to work in a different learning curve creates better artists and healthier athletes... I am convinced that coaches can evolve and adapt their learning curve... Some do so... Some just don't care to do so. They know one and only one way to make it work.

I am okay with people fantasizing about child prodigies in some disciplines.. not my cup of tea.

However, I am not okay with children getting hurt physically and psychologically, and in figure skating, the child prodigy culture is particularly dangerous.

Most of the other sports I watch actually don't have these problems on that scale at all. Of course there are always abusive coaches, body-shaming, eating disorders, but the general culture is a lot better in professional sports where athletes peak in their 20s, are getting paid for their work, aren't dependent on judges and a few gatekeeping coaches/ fed people.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Just because someone doesn’t like how the skaters or their coaches approach things, doesn’t mean it’s wrong or they shouldn’t be able to do it.

Wow, okay. From everything you've said, including the above quote, you are very fixated on your own enjoyments in a cold-blooded way, without any thought or caring for how you get to see what floats your boat. FYI-- the sport does have rules and regulations regardless of whether or not they are adequately arrived at, effectively monitored, or equitably and fairly enforced.

As well, whether you realize it or not, there is a code of ethics involved in coaching. Some things are a matter of human decency. As I said earlier, the best coaches to me, are those who care about their students as people first, and as athletes second.

My enjoyment of figure skating is bound up with getting to know the skaters and going with them vicariously on their journey. Understanding something about an athlete makes it more fulfilling for me when celebrating their victories, and during the process of supporting them through all the ups and downs of their journey.

Some people place medals and accolades above all else. We need to respect that.

Watching fave skaters win medals can be sweet and very satisfying. But ultimately, for me, it's about the skaters' journeys in their individual totalities, not about the podium pitstops, or lack thereof, along the way.

You can respect whatever you so desire. You can't dictate to others what they should or shouldn't respect.

 

[alexocfp]

I don't blame Eteri for what happens with other skaters. The sport as a whole has a problem there and Eteri alone vanishing won't solve these problems.
But I do blame her for what happens to her own skaters. Kids are not responsible for these decisions. If I thought they were capable of making such decisions on their own I would advocate for marriage for every age and legal sex with adults for every age as long as it is "consential". Children can be exploited and they might not even realize what happens. Even as adults they might think it was "good for them", like many adults who were beaten as children think that it "didn't do them any harm", when actually research shows it did. They might think it is normal because the adults around them treat it like that. They might be persuaded and educated to always blame themselves. They might think that that is the only way they will get love and attention. That's why there need to be rules and laws in place to protect them. We cannot equal their will with that of grown-ups. The grown ups need to take care of them, and that also sometimes means keeping them from what they want, but especially not forcing or pushing them to do things that are unhealthy for them. Yes, many of those skaters are failed by their parents just as well, by society, by media, by feds. That doesn't mean the coach has no responsibility, on the contrary, the coach has special responsibility to take care that the sport harms body and mind of the underage skater as least as possible.
But of course if you aren't interested in morals and how results are achieved you are indeed free of such thoughts. People not being interested in whether abuse happens doesn't make abuse anything else but abuse though.

You think when I was 14, I was letting my parents keep me from doing what I wanted?

Just found a way to do it clandestinely.

Also, I am not going to pretend I am a better parent or guardian to a stranger. Parents taking a different route than someone else doesn’t make them “clueless.”

Top athletes, at any age, don’t think or act like the average person and age is just a number for them.

 

[yume]

LOL! I seriously doubt Zagitova would still be competing internationally if she was a U.S. competitor.

Why? You make it sound like for someone who was able to score almost 80 and 150+ during her last season, she would have been totally unable to get into top 10 at US nats. I know Russians are not allowed to struggle like everyone else and that many people prefer to remember her last free skate as the only performance she was capable of, but c'mon.

The U.S. ladies discipline is still one of the strongest and most competitive in the world. Throughout the history of figure skating many medal results have been inextricably involved with politics and perception, not just skaters' performances. This is particularly the case in recent times, due to the depth of ability and equivalent talent globally. Suffice to say that U.S. ladies competitors were so dominate from the 1950s forward, that the U.S. ladies discipline continues to hold the record for the most medals won at Worlds (26 gold; 22 silver; 25 bronze) and Olympics (7 gold; 8 silver; 8 bronze). This is the case, despite the fact that U.S. ladies were shut out of the Worlds podium from 2007 to 2015, and they have not medaled in singles at the Olympics since Sasha Cohen's silver medal in 2006.

It's a real question which country will eventually break the U.S. ladies' dominant medal total records. The battle most likely will ultimately be won by either Japan or South Korea (but it will take awhile). Russia has a shot only if they eventually come back and rules are enforced, monitored and adhered to.

The poster was talking about today, not yesterday.
What i see in that part of the post, is that like in any sport and any field, US got its glory era with ladies. Now, they are in a less glorious era. But it's a cycle.
Also, it hurts much less when it's USA which has all those medals.

 

[icewhite]

You think when I was 14, I was letting my parents keep me from doing what I wanted?

Just found a way to do it clandestinely.

Also, I am not going to pretend I am a better parent or guardian to a stranger. Parents taking a different route than someone else doesn’t make them “clueless.”

Top athletes, at any age, don’t think or act like the average person and age is just a number for them.

I have to get out of this now, otherwise I will be banned soon.