Coaches' Corner

[alexocfp]

If feds, especially Rusfed in this case, weren't that ambitious, coaches like Eteri wouldn't exist. No, they would exist but they wouldn't be allowed to do whatever they want.
Feds know everything, they know what happens and they allow it. Because there will be medals at the end. If feds wanted to protect kids, they would be protected. If Eteri stops giving them consistent or semi-consistent quadteens, they will find another Eteri. Simple.

Exactly. The skaters aren’t the only ones being judged. She is as well. She isn’t getting funding because they like her, they are getting results with her. And there are people also willing to pay money to watch her skaters.

Of course there is an overabundance of skaters that want to be part of it, but let’s be real: if she stopped getting results, the skaters would also go elsewhere.

Lost in all this is that the skaters are going where they think they can get the best results. Skaters use Eteri too. It’s not a one way street.

Her run won’t last forever either.

 

[JimR]

you're comparing apples to oranges. this comparison doesn't make sense here.

just because skaters from other countries, all with different coaches, are/have been injured says nothing. this is elite figure skating- it's incredibly hard on the body and the risk of injury is high just doing doubles or triples. however, none of these coaches have a nonstop conveyer belt of students who crumble like dominos one after the next with serious, oftentimes career ending injures. all 18 or under.

If we look at this season, Petrosian had an injury but that seemingly healed fine and she came back with her best skate of the season in the GP final. It looks as though TSHT were extra cautious with her.

Maya had a freak accident that could happen to anyone. Daria seems to have a family history of similar injuries, her body was suitable for the difficulty of sport at the highest level. Shcherbakova has achieved everything and given up at the end of an Olympic cycle which is completely reasonable.

Muravieva is carrying an injury, Tuktamysheva withdrew from the St Petersburg championship, Zinina hurt herself in a fall, Trusova pulled out of nationals and the GP final.

Kamila only missed the Channel 1 Cup because of a flu, Akatieva participated in every event. Eteri's skaters compare well with other camps.

I know about what Kostornaia claims, but she is not credible in my opinion. She had a surgery 6 months ago and was supposed to be not jumping for 6 months, but defied her coach and was jumping again in a matter of months which led to an injury. She admits to breaking an arm trying to win a bet. The way she flits from one thing to the next makes me think a lot of her problems are due to a lack of committment, lack of preparation, not listening to coaches.

it's also important to note skaters like Bradie and Alysa got seriously injured trying to keep up with a nation of skaters who are following a dishonest and unreachable/unsustainable norm.

Higuchi Wakaba missed the entire season from a stress fracture in her leg there are no Russians competing. Is this the coach's fault?

If what you're saying its true, it's a poor reflectoin on their coaches if they are endangering their athletes attempting jumps that are outside the capabilities of their skaters.

 

[JimR]

Young students do not always have the maturity and the perspective to make enlightened choices (and parents, are often clueless). There is a lot of denial when it comes to studying with a coach that has success but also, may have dubious training methods. It's not only in figure skating. It happens in many other sports and fields.

The issue I see in this particular case is exactly that : because there is a large pool of talent, not every skater really matters... training methods can aim at creating winners but don't need to nurture the athletes in all aspect of sport, including physical health and mental health. What this creates, is exactly what has been witnessed... winners- yes, shorter careers- yes, and many many injured kids. It puts the coach above the athlete... not the other way around. The athletes serve the coach instead of the coach serving the athletes. Fine, the winner may feel that they received good and optimal coaching. But the other 99 kids ? Nope.. because this culture in coaching has only ONE goal... Winning, and doing so as fast and quickly as possible.

In some other parts of the world, the pool of talent is limited. Athletes have to be nurtured and cared for. Yes, injuries can always happen. It's a dangerous sport after all. However, there are places where having fun, being healthy while practicing an elite sport, and personal and human growth are valued. It's a cultural shift that is definitely happening. I see it also happening in other fields (like performing arts). One can simply look at emerging talent from countries where healthy methods are used... In the long term, it does create better artists and longer careers.

The child prodigy culture is definitely not something sustainable... It has always been impressive for people to see kids play a Rachmaninoff concerto or jump a quad at a tender age... but everyone grows up... and aiming to work in a different learning curve creates better artists and healthier athletes... I am convinced that coaches can evolve and adapt their learning curve... Some do so... Some just don't care to do so. They know one and only one way to make it work.

I am okay with people fantasizing about child prodigies in some disciplines.. not my cup of tea.

However, I am not okay with children getting hurt physically and psychologically, and in figure skating, the child prodigy culture is particularly dangerous.

Let's have some perspective here. Injuries are not just limited to figure skating.

Each year, over 7 million high school students are taking to the court or to the field, either defending their school’s title or working to secure one. Many of these students have dreams of making pro, and while facing pressure from their own personal goals, their parents and coaches, and their team, they can often push themselves or others a bit too hard.

In part, this reasoning explains the variety of startling statistics about injuries surrounding America’s young student athletes:

• More than 3.5 million kids ages 14 and under receive medical treatment for sports injuries each year.
• 90 percent of student athletes report some sort of sports-related injury.
• 54 percent of student athletes report they have played while injured.
• 62 percent of organized sports-related injuries occur during practice. However, 33 percent of parents do not have their children take the same safety precautions at practice that they would during a game.
• 21 percent of all traumatic brain injuries among children in the United States are associated with participation in sports and recreational activities.
• Between 2008 and 2015, more than 300 sports-related deaths of young athletes occurred in America alone.
• According to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control, more than half of all sports injuries in children are preventable.

 

[JimR]

This is a fanciful hypothetical that was posed by the OP for the purposes of attempting to denigrate and look down on the U.S. women's discipline.

Obviously, it's rather silly to think that Zagitova, after achieving her goals and retiring, would ever come back to represent the U.S. She'd have to desire doing this, which is beyond being extremely doubtful. Then, she'd have to secure a release, and apply to become a U.S. citizen. How old would she be by that point? She surely retired for good reasons in the first place. There's no basis for even thinking this is based in reality. It's a silly hypothetical. That's why my LOL, which I will now double LOLOL!

My point was that if Zagitova skated for a relatively weak country with a full quota, she could turn up at Nationals and have some chance of representing her country internationally each year into her mid 20's like someone at the level of Mariah Bell.

This opportunity does not exist in Russia. You need to be at the level of the best skaters scoring 240 not 210 in order to skate internationally. It's not that Russian coaches 'break' skaters and force them into early retirement, there's just less opportunities to win medals or skate internationally so less incentive to continue. Mariah Bell is a career 210 skater, the best she could have hoped for in Russia was an ocassional GP appearance.

I wasn't denigrating US women's skating but making an observation like I would about a relatively weak nation like Belgium. Liu is retired, the fed's hopes rests with a recently turned 16 year old skater (the ethics of using a 15 or 16 year old when knowing the dangers to their health is another discussion), junior world championships did not go well highest finish 8th with just one place in the top 14. Let's hope they can turn it around.

 

[yume]

If what you're saying its true, it's a poor reflectoin on their coaches if they are endangering their athletes attempting jumps that are outside the capabilities of their skaters.

This is an interesting take.
I think that as other coaches have less top students (the only comparable imo is Marie-France Dubreuil), so less reported injuries than Eteri's camp, people always find a way to justify the injuries of their students with anything but the decisions of their coach. Blaming Eteri for raising the technical bar is one of them. Blaming her for the injuries of her ex-students that occured or worsened in other training camps. There is the classical "FS is a demanding sport" for those who got injured by training only triples. There is the "but those other skaters come back, they don't retire at 18. So it wasn't that bad" while those other skaters compete with skaters who most of the time struggle to break 200 or they have basically free spots. Then there is the "he/she was an adult, so they could say no, they could decide for themselves". While the adult can be 18 and under the same coach since the age of 10. Of course that coach would not have an influence on them....
The most creative imo was the "she was coaching herself". That's the best.

Sakamoto tried 4T twice and fell on an overrotated 3T. She and her coach decided to give up and chose another strategy. Increasing her GOEs and consistency (the PCS would follow) and hoping that the ones with better layouts makes mistakes. It worked. She never cleanly landed anything harder than 3F-3T in her senior career but she is now 3 times nats champion, olys medalist, world champion. While Kihira who was better technically (and imo artistically) is trying to recover all her triples.

I don't know if Wakaba Higuchi ever had a full season without injuries. When there was a rumor some years ago about a Japanese switching to Orser, i really hoped it was her. Because her coaches teach good basics but don't play on her strengths well and seem to have a training that is too hard on the body. See Rion Sumiyoshi or Kao Miura. Not saying Orser doesn't have his fair share of injuries. He's the one who had all his top skaters injured during the 2018 olys season. But his team would have been a better fit imo.

All of this is to say that everyone has a choice and other strategies can work. No one is forced to make their students attempt jumps that are too dangerous for them or make them do more runthroughs to develop a better consistency. Only their ambition forces them to.

 

[SmileHappy34]

A question that kina of brought up. What happens between coach & skater, if a skater doesn't improve in technique . The coach tries to improve the skater " doesn't listen". Does the skater peace the coach? Does the coach leave the skater? Do they ( coach or skater say things against coach or skater after leaving) does coach use skater to other skaters to imply why didn't win medals. Does coaches imply it to other coaches, judges, federation, sponsor or skaters? The reasons for medaling and not isany. Does the coach have any input beyond teaching skaters. It is a judge sport. It is a competition. I wondered how far the input was when watching the competition. the analyst states things in reference to coach and the talk to coaches. Not skaters. The skaters state thank you. The implication of what not seen bou. U ( consumer) be surprised at how win or goes behind in competition. I doubt that. I think underestimate the non skater or person.

 

[Minz]

She admits to breaking an arm trying to win a bet.

Where did you find this out? Last I heard, she blamed it on the 3A. And look, Eteri did say that she should have completed with it. And then she did train again and promptly broke the second arm.

If you'd like, I can provide you with my sources, all publicly available.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

My point was that if Zagitova skated for a relatively weak country with a full quota, she could turn up at Nationals and have some chance of representing her country internationally each year into her mid 20's like someone at the level of Mariah Bell.

This opportunity does not exist in Russia. You need to be at the level of the best skaters scoring 240 not 210 in order to skate internationally. It's not that Russian coaches 'break' skaters and force them into early retirement, there's just less opportunities to win medals or skate internationally so less incentive to continue. Mariah Bell is a career 210 skater, the best she could have hoped for in Russia was an ocassional GP appearance.

I wasn't denigrating US women's skating but making an observation like I would about a relatively weak nation like Belgium. Liu is retired, the fed's hopes rests with a recently turned 16 year old skater (the ethics of using a 15 or 16 year old when knowing the dangers to their health is another discussion), junior world championships did not go well highest finish 8th with just one place in the top 14. Let's hope they can turn it around.

My point remains though that you specifically cited the U.S. ladies discipline as being "weak." And that's not true.

 

[alexocfp]

My point was that if Zagitova skated for a relatively weak country with a full quota, she could turn up at Nationals and have some chance of representing her country internationally each year into her mid 20's like someone at the level of Mariah Bell.

This opportunity does not exist in Russia. You need to be at the level of the best skaters scoring 240 not 210 in order to skate internationally. It's not that Russian coaches 'break' skaters and force them into early retirement, there's just less opportunities to win medals or skate internationally so less incentive to continue. Mariah Bell is a career 210 skater, the best she could have hoped for in Russia was an ocassional GP appearance.

I wasn't denigrating US women's skating but making an observation like I would about a relatively weak nation like Belgium. Liu is retired, the fed's hopes rests with a recently turned 16 year old skater (the ethics of using a 15 or 16 year old when knowing the dangers to their health is another discussion), junior world championships did not go well highest finish 8th with just one place in the top 14. Let's hope they can turn it around.

If I had a daughter, and if I did the next sentence only works if she didn’t have my non athlete genes, and she was able to score 180-200, she would be on the Greek national team (and I would send her to that team over the USA) until she was 40. Haha

 

[mrrice]

Fingers crossed for Usacheva's ID career, she is a charismatic girl and I'd hate to see her just disappear from FS. Too bad she had a condition that was incompatible with the jumping loads she needed to remain relevant in Russia.

I feel sorry for Grassl getting hate online. It's a strange time to travel to Russia for training, but perhaps he feels it's the last hope for his career. He does need more stability, and if he's cool with the means he achieves it (meaning harsh training only), then it's his life and his choice, who am I to judge him if I'm not in his shoes.

It really is too bad to see Russia get this new reputation. Most of you know that I danced in Russia and it was a great experience. All the dancers I worked with were dedicated and hard working. We all had such a great time together. I'm sure it's not for everyone but, I loved working hard for hours. We'd work hard all week and then go out for Beers, Borscht, Bread, and Cheese. Not exactly a dancers diet but, we really bonded during those moments. I loved Russia. Plus.....The Grand Dame of Russian Figure Skating. My Skating Wife, Maria Butyrskaya.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZ9H_qSb2c0&t=106s