Joubert / Buttle debate nature of sport

[Mathman]

I agree with ChrisH, DivaDes and Inloveagain about the GOEs.

I don't think the base value of the quad needs to be increased. The quad already has two extra bonuses built in, in addition to its high base value.

(1) A quad and a triple of the same kind of jump count as two different jumps for Zayak purposes. A skater without a quad thus has a harder time maxing out all of his jumping passes.

(2) The judges, being only human, tend to doubly reward the big tricks by giving more generous program compomnent scores.

But the idea of greater positive and negative GOEs for quads would encourage the skaters both to take the risk of trying a quad AND to work hard on the quality of the jump.

IMHO the easiest way to do it would simply be to give a percentage of the base value for each element. This could easily be built into the software and the judges would not have to do anything different. A reasonable percentage might by 25%, 50% and 75% corresponding to +1, +2, and +3 GOE.

Thus a quad toe (base value 9.0) would get 11.25 with +1 GOE and a whopping 13.5 for a truly outstanding effort with +2 GOE. This would make it well worth while to work on quality, and would discourage skaters from throwing it in just because they can complete the revolutions (a quad toe with -2 GOE would only be worth 4.5).

 

[emma]

I love this discussion about GOE - thanks, it is illuminating and strikes me as a very good idea.

 

[DivaDes]

I agree with ChrisH, DivaDes and Inloveagain about the GOEs.

I don't think the base value of the quad needs to be increased. The quad already has two extra bonuses built in, in addition to its high base value.

(1) A quad and a triple of the same kind of jump count as two different jumps for Zayak purposes. A skater without a quad thus has a harder time maxing out all of his jumping passes.

(2) The judges, being only human, tend to doubly reward the big tricks by giving more generous program compomnent scores.

But the idea of greater positive and negative GOEs for quads would encourage the skaters both to take the risk of trying a quad AND to work hard on the quality of the jump.

IMHO the easiest way to do it would simply be to give a percentage of the base value for each element. This could easily be built into the software and the judges would not have to do anything different. A reasonable percentage might by 25%, 50% and 75% corresponding to +1, +2, and +3 GOE.

Thus a quad toe (base value 9.0) would get 11.25 with +1 GOE and a whopping 13.5 for a truly outstanding effort with +2 GOE. This would make it well worth while to work on quality, and would discourage skaters from throwing it in just because they can complete the revolutions (a quad toe with -2 GOE would only be worth 4.5).

While we are on the topic of COP improvements, I have always disliked the rule that jumps done in sequence receive a 10% deduction off the base value. My thought is instead of deducting for a sequence their should be a bonus for a jumps combination and the jumps for a sequence should just be marked for their worth.

~D

 

[Kinga]

Im very happy than someone actually can still win a world championship without a quad. It shows the sum of its parts was more important than relying in one big trick. Congratulations to Jeffrey!!

Exactly! If the point for quad increase, all we will see is attempts to do it and not taking care of other parts of the programme. If you consider that many of those attempts can be failed, you will get an idea that the competition can become much uglier.
Winning without the quad - that's something!! That is winning in the best possible way!

 

[Kinga]

I disagree with Joubert about the quad. I don't want to see it become the prohibitive factor in competition. I think as it stands now, any guy with the quad has a big advantage going in.

But you know, if you don't execute, the way a number of the big guns didn't, than why should attempting one save you over others who skated very, very well? There are guys (Lambiel springs immediately to mind) who have more difficulty with the 3axel than with the quad — so why shouldn't we argue that the 3axel should be worth more, as it is clearly the hardest jump for some? Why should the quad be worth so much more, relatively?

A quad shouldn't be worth so much that you can just rely on that and leave other things (like maxing out your combination windows) out of your program. I don't think one element alone should have the power to dictate who can win and who can't. That takes a lot of the sport out of it, reducing it to the point where they might as well just go out onto the ice, build up some speed and do a quad, or not, and be done with it.

Could not agree more.

 

[Sk8n Mama]

I, personally, do not think the quad should be worth more. I don't think the quad is sooooo much harder than the 3 ax and, for some skaters, a quad toe might even be easier than a 3 ax because of the pick vs. edge take off (most skaters favour one or the other).

For the guys, the jump components were very close. Brian did the quad but Jeff did 2 3axels, one in combo. Otherwise the jumping passes were very well matched. Where Jeff won was the spins and footwork. I watched both programs on youtube today and Jeff's spins were harder, faster and much better centered. Jeff's first firstwork line was very difficult but still managed to carry good speed. because of that, his spins and footwork were at level 4. Brian's footwork has some difficult edges and turns in it but they were linked with toe hops and two-footed skating, so level 3. Brian's spins were level 2s. This is where the CoP forces a program to move away from 'figure jumping' to 'figure skating'. Brian Joubert is an excellent jumper, there's no doubt about that, but Jeff is a beautiful all-around skater.

 

[screech]

Brian Joubert is an excellent jumper, there's no doubt about that, but Jeff is a beautiful all-around skater.

Kurt Browning commented on that. Kurt commented that he's always said that Jeff is 'pound for pound the best skater in the world' and is now happy that he doesn't have to say that comment anymore because Jeff has the title to prove it.

Jeff's weakness has always been the more difficult jumps (especially the 3A consistency and quad) but when he's on, man is he on and is he brilliant, and thanks to the brilliant skates, everyone can see that now.

I've said before but our sport is called figure skating not figure jumping. Jeff can skate. Brian has improved a lot but he's still not a pure 'skater'. Jeff is a 'skater' and that's why he's the world champion. When he combines all aspects of the sport he is amazing. For Brian, though he's getting there, he still doesn't have all the great 'skating' aspects of the sport. He still does a lot of toe pushes, shallower edges, less difficult turns, less variability in his levels (high/medium/low body levels), etc. Personally I think that in the off season he would benefit from doing a bit of compulsory figures occasionally to help him out with that - edges, turns, etc. Those basics are still the essence of the sport, though to many the jumps overshadow that. But like I said, just remember the name of the sport and that kind of clarifies why Jeff 'wins' the debate.

 

[champs]

While we are on the topic of COP improvements, I have always disliked the rule that jumps done in sequence receive a 10% deduction off the base value. My thought is instead of deducting for a sequence their should be a bonus for a jumps combination and the jumps for a sequence should just be marked for their worth.

~D

I totally agree.

 

[Audrey19]

I really like the quad, but if I had to chose between a program with a lack of choreography/artistry and a program which is a joy to watch and full of skating, I would always chose the second one. 4.30 minutes against one second of delight-no question.

 

[Mathman]

About jumps in combination and sequence, I think the reasoning is that there is already a bonus -- even after taking into account the 20% reduction for a sequence. The bonus is, you get to do an extra jumping pass.

For example, suppose your last two jumps are 3S and 2A. That's 8 points (base, not counting second half bonus) for your last two passes.

So instead you do 2A+3S SEQ. That's 6.4 points after the 20% reduction.

But now you have another pass. So you do another 2A (3.5 points). Total, 9.9.

So I guess in a way you got a bonus of 1.9 points for doing a sequence. (Of course, it wasn't free -- you had to do another double Axel to collect it.)

The option of a 3/3 sequence is what allowed Sasha to be competitive with a seven triple program, with no 3/3 combination.

For a triple/triple combo, your bonus is the full value of whatever you can manage in your extra jumping pass.

Maybe that is the ISU's reasoning on this rule. (?)

 

[Kypma]

Maybe that is the ISU's reasoning on this rule. (?)

Mathman, that makes sense, and did when sequences could include some turns or hops or whatever .However, I think that sequences with a half-loop are much more difficult, somewhat like regular combinations, since there is not change of edge or foot between the jumps. But for othre sequences with mazurkas and such, I agree.

Kypma

 

[TCTC84]

Buttle is the only skater to win worlds without a quad in 10 years

 

[Tinymavy15]

This is classic CoP. Once skater lands a quad a brings down the house and loses to Jeff Buttle. I agree wit h dick button that the music violation in the SP was absurd, he never had it before and who really cares anyway? But music violation or not, Jeffery still would have won. the only thing brian could have done was A) made his 3/3 a quad/triple, and landed it clean or B) put in a 3 axel combo late in the program. Does anybody know why brian always does only one 3 axel? He usually lands it, so it is not a weak jump for him. I think that he needed it. If he had done a 3 axel/ 3 toe cleanly we might have the title.

Buttle is the only skater to win worlds without a quad in 10 years

you're kidding! wow, i never realized that at all. very interesting.

I agree with this, because even with a fall on a quad toe, you're still racking 5 points and that is more than a good triple toe.

right, but look what happened to Johnny. a tiny under-rotation and a little double foot and he got 1.5 instead of whatever a 3 toe is worth. all that risk and he gets less, not more. pretty much if you are trying a quad, it better be rotated and clean.

 

[Medusa]

Does anybody know why brian always does only one 3 axel? He usually lands it, so it is not a weak jump for him. I think that he needed it. If he had done a 3 axel/ 3 toe cleanly we might have the title.

Yeah, he lands it - barely. I think it's probably his worst jump, he had lots of problems with it early in his career (not like Lambiel-problems, just problems). I also can't remember if he had ever landed it in competition in combination with a double or a triple. It always looks very tight if he does it, he rarely gets GOE for it, sometimes even -1 and -2. I really don't know if he is practising it in combination with a 3T.

 

[JonnyCoop]

I really like the quad, but if I had to chose between a program with a lack of choreography/artistry and a program which is a joy to watch and full of skating, I would always chose the second one. 4.30 minutes against one second of delight-no question.

THANK YOU!!

And to elaborate on that --

To me, tho, the quad was something to see when it was still a relatively new thing (especially the way Elvis did them), but quite honestly, I personally could care less about them anymore. When you really think about it, all it is is an extra revolution that goes around so fast you can barely see it anyway; I wouldn't even technically consider it even ONE SECOND of delight. Often it's not even that; how many times do we see falls on quad ATTEMPTS?? (Yes, the guys fall on triple attempts, too, but they're less likely to go down on one of those, in general.)

I find it interesting that the two guys who seem to be most wound up about the importance of the quad -- namely, Joubert and Lysacek -- also display, for the most part, IMHO, overall very tedious skating. Both of these guys -- especially Lysacek this season -- go out there and race through any semblance of nuance and artistry that might be in their programs, just so they can go on to the next big trick. It's dull. Why even have the music on, then?? Why pay for a choreographer?? Perhaps there should be (as has been mentioned often on this board) a seperate jumping event for skaters like this who don't care much about all the other niceties that really make figure skating what it is. I have to admit, without wishing any ill will towards Mr. Lysacek in general, that I was actually rather relieved that he wasn't going to be at Worlds simply because I could not stand to sit through what could have been a potentially great program, ruined by his tendency to just put on an awesome technical display at the expense of everything else.

It has seemed that ever since CoP came along, the PCS scores have been actually highly irrelevant -- skaters who have a lot of fabulous stuff going on between the jumps (Jeffrey being a prime example), even when they skate clean, lose a lot of ground to guys who skate in what appears to be the preferred style -- speed, jumps (often flawed), and virtually nothing else. IMHO, we need more victories like Jeffrey's this weekend to send a message that hey, this thing is 4 1/2 minutes long and there's supposed to be [the operative term] musical interpretation involved as well. People did not pay perfectly good money to go to these things and be bored to death.

 

[Bruin714]

THANK YOU!!

It has seemed that ever since CoP came along, the PCS scores have been actually highly irrelevant -- skaters who have a lot of fabulous stuff going on between the jumps (Jeffrey being a prime example), even when they skate clean, lose a lot of ground to guys who skate in what appears to be the preferred style -- speed, jumps (often flawed), and virtually nothing else. IMHO, we need more victories like Jeffrey's this weekend to send a message that hey, this thing is 4 1/2 minutes long and there's supposed to be [the operative term] musical interpretation involved as well. People did not pay perfectly good money to go to these things and be bored to death.

Actually, it is only under the CoP that skaters like Buttle and Weir got attention and World medals in the first place. The quad war was on, and only those with the Quads had a chance, starting with Kulic's gold medal in 1998 all the way through 2003.

Buttle won or came close to winning with a quadless program many times. His presentation/PCS is recognized and favored.

 

[nubka]

About jumps in combination and sequence, I think the reasoning is that there is already a bonus -- even after taking into account the 20% reduction for a sequence. The bonus is, you get to do an extra jumping pass.

For example, suppose your last two jumps are 3S and 2A. That's 8 points (base, not counting second half bonus) for your last two passes.

So instead you do 2A+3S SEQ. That's 6.4 points after the 20% reduction.

But now you have another pass. So you do another 2A (3.5 points). Total, 9.9.

So I guess in a way you got a bonus of 1.9 points for doing a sequence. (Of course, it wasn't free -- you had to do another double Axel to collect it.)

The option of a 3/3 sequence is what allowed Sasha to be competitive with a seven triple program, with no 3/3 combination.

For a triple/triple combo, your bonus is the full value of whatever you can manage in your extra jumping pass.

Maybe that is the ISU's reasoning on this rule. (?)

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - they don't call you "Mathman" for nuthin!

 

[Bennett]

I was a bit surprised that Joubert was over Jeff in PCSs. Do you know why?

Jeff said that he worked on everything in skating and polished up in-betweens, but it didn't seem to be rewarded.

 

[passion]

ITA with Jeff. I came to respect him even more after reading this article. Quad is merely an optional element that he can choose not to put in the program. It is his choice, so what? Even without the element, he is still one of the most well-rounded skaters I have ever seen and he proved it well last night.

So, thank you Jeff for bringing back the full-packed program that presents every aspect of figure skating, something that has been missing from this sport for a long long time. And I believe the judges and even the press can't seem to agree more with me.

I read an article in the Vancouver Sun and I totally agreed with Jeff about what he said in it. He basically said that people remember the whole program not the individual jumps. That's what ultimately comes across... the performance.

Personally, the way I see it is this: the entire performance and the perfect jumps are the highlight. Although, I'm sure that people would see the jumps as the meat and potatoes, and the everything else is secondary.

 

[decker]

It would be awful if Jeff put on a clean and attractive program mainly because it was downright juniorish in difficulty. But he won with 2 triple axels, high level spins and steps, and good clean jumps all 'round – hardly simplistic or immature.

Brian is the one who landed his lutz on his fanny and then tried to pass off a 2A + 1T as a seniors-worthy combination. A quad and a really hot 6-pack can only make up for so many errors and omissions!

Susan