- Joined
- Jul 1, 2007
No he wasn't.
That doesn't have anything to do with the level anyway.
That doesn't have anything to do with the level anyway.
Joubert / Buttle debate nature of sport
- Thread starter Geesesk8
- Start date
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2007
Yeah, Chuck. The reality is Jeff is the 2008 WORLD CHAMPION. At this point, any additional gold in a major competition is a bonus, but I am sure most fans are not going to pressure Jeff to win more competitions in future worlds or Olympics. Let's put it this way. If he can win Worlds or Olympics, we will be thankful, but we wouldn't blame him if he doesn't win any. He will be remembered as the first Canadian champion since Elvis Stojko. This is good enough for a lot of us. All we hope is he will be an inspiration to a lot of young Canadian skaters up and coming, as Kurt Browning and Brian Orser were to him.
This is just like your love affair with your US ladies, particularly with your Kimmie. She hasn't been all that consistent since her crowning at 2006 Worlds. You still express your hope and love for her, even though she is faced with numerous problems, namely the lack of the consistency of her jumps, under-rotations, etc.
Joubert and Weir had their chance and were more than capable of maximizing TES at 2008 Worlds but they weren't able to. Why didn't they just do that at Worlds? This is the nature of competitions. You don't know from one day to another. Particularly the guys with quads are faced with more risks than those without quads, due to the technically difficulty of the jump.
Going back to Jeff, he performed a relatively clean Ararat at 2007 Nationals in Halifax. I was there at Metro Halifax Arena and he got standing ovation even before he finished his program. The tremour you felt in the arena was beyond description. You wouldn't know unless you were there.
If he has a hard time with his FS next year, he will take it as a learning lesson and perfect his program the following year in 2010 Vancouver. He has the luxury of one year going into the Olympics, in which he will learn what is like going into a competition as a defending champion and what he should do to keep his cool.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
What is the difference between skating skills and the GoEs?
If a skater puts his hands on his hips while executing a triple lutz, is that a +3 or is it a skating skill?
Joe
If a skater puts his hands on his hips while executing a triple lutz, is that a +3 or is it a skating skill?
Joe
Huh? I've heard commented no many occassions for years that Joubert has excellent basic skating skills. He's needed to work on his Presentation skills but Joubert's basic skating is first rate.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Please, someone tell me what Skating skills are and be emphatic! We can talk about them and every skater once we know what they are.
What is it about Joubert's skating skills that Buttle doesn't have, for example?
Joe
What is it about Joubert's skating skills that Buttle doesn't have, for example?
Joe
Skating skills---
Buttle is lighter and smoother. Joubert is more powerful, which makes him look faster and more energetic or more lively. When he skates, the rink looks smaller. I don't know which is better. Mao has similar basic skating quality with Jeff, and judges and commentators love her skating skills. But for guys, powerfulness may be an important factor.
Excution/performance---
Given that almost all of his elements received plus GOEs, Jeff deserves excellent marks for excusions. He is also outstanding in performance.
Transitions, interpretations, and choreos---
These are areas where Jeff has worked very hard and is truly outstanding.
I really think Jeff is undermarked and Joubert is overmarked in PCSs.
Buttle is lighter and smoother. Joubert is more powerful, which makes him look faster and more energetic or more lively. When he skates, the rink looks smaller. I don't know which is better. Mao has similar basic skating quality with Jeff, and judges and commentators love her skating skills. But for guys, powerfulness may be an important factor.
Excution/performance---
Given that almost all of his elements received plus GOEs, Jeff deserves excellent marks for excusions. He is also outstanding in performance.
Transitions, interpretations, and choreos---
These are areas where Jeff has worked very hard and is truly outstanding.
I really think Jeff is undermarked and Joubert is overmarked in PCSs.
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- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Skating Skills
Over all skating quality: edge control and flow over the ice surface demonstrated by a command of the skating vocabulary (edges, steps, turns, etc.), the clarity of technique, and the use of effortless power to accelerate and vary speed.
Criteria:
Balance, rhythmic knee action, and precision of foot placement.
Flow and effortless glide: Rhythm, strength, clean strokes, and an efficient use of lean create a steady run to the blade and an ease of transfer weight resulting in seemingly effortless power and acceleration.
Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps, and turns: The skater should demonstrate clean and controled curves, deep edges, and steps.
Varied use of power/energy, speed, and acceleration: Variety is the gradation – some of which may be subtle.
Multi-directional skating: Includes all direction of skating, forward and backward, clockwise and counterclockwise including rotation in both directions.
Mastery of one-foot skating: No over use of two-foot skating.
http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152086-169302-64121-0-file,00.pdf
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
A GOE applies to a particular element, PCSs apply to the program as a whole.
GOE.
I will rather remember him for having a 'dull' type of look... But that's subjective.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
I think all those things should be dealt with individually and not lumped into a catchall.
Joe
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2008
When it comes to components, I think the documents are perfectly clear. I believe that if judges appear not to understand them, it isn't because they don't really understand them, but because either:
a) They prefer giving a general artistic grade like in the old system for whatever reason, and so the component scores of one skater are all the same
b) It's back to good old "components to compensate the technical grade" and biasm.
I think you made a good point.
To me, it's not really difficult to apply five compoments when I see a program. You could analyze the program and the skater's moves and apply each criterion. But I understand that some people prefer giving an overall impression when it comes to the artistic impression perhaps because they think that the whole is greater than sum of its parts. I basically agree with this perspective, but I could still do the five compoments because I believe that you could have an analytical perspective to understand what makes this overall impression. I think that good skaters and choreographers know what makes a good program and performance, which doesn't all come from intuition or talent, but you could try to understand and work on it. Otherwise, you don't need all the art teachers or schools who can teach basic theories and skills in arts. Pianists study the scores and the background behind the piece of music. Painters study theories and develop experiential knowledge about colors and compositions.
I believe that judges should be able to analyze what makes the effects of the program and the performance. I personally don't think that professional judges stop to analyze after just having the overall impression. They should be able to tell why and how the program was beautiful.
Yet, I wonder if it may be better if they have five components plus an overall assessment that sum-up the "whole"?
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joubert/buttle
They are both wonderful skaters, we all know that. But someone said that Buttle's skating is boring? How? He has the best edges, his artistry is outstanding. He is just so beautiful to watch. His spins are classic. Just how is this guy boring? He gives of himself to the audience, etc. I love brian's skating too but there is so much more to skating than the quads. Just to let folks know, Jeff said he was going to start training more on the quad. I did see him do one back in 2003 or 2004. It was a good one too.
They are both wonderful skaters, we all know that. But someone said that Buttle's skating is boring? How? He has the best edges, his artistry is outstanding. He is just so beautiful to watch. His spins are classic. Just how is this guy boring? He gives of himself to the audience, etc. I love brian's skating too but there is so much more to skating than the quads. Just to let folks know, Jeff said he was going to start training more on the quad. I did see him do one back in 2003 or 2004. It was a good one too.
Absolutely. I think judges don't necessarily follow the criteria
Just eyeballing, there seems to be a correlation between quads and SS score, for example. But they are not confusing at all.Judging each of the 6 criteria separately? Egads! Like we don't have enough problems with 5 components!
Susan
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2008
I wasn't the person who said Jeffrey was a bore, but I don't think a statement like that should be read as a universal "he's boring", just as a subjective "I find him boring". Different things will always appeal to different people, and it's no reflection on what a skater is doing - just on our personal preferences in skating and the style we like to watch. Personally, though I have a lot of respect for his talent, I don't find Buttle's programs as engaging as those of some of the other male skaters. But I still think he deserved to be world champion this yearThey are both wonderful skaters, we all know that. But someone said that Buttle's skating is boring? How? He has the best edges, his artistry is outstanding. He is just so beautiful to watch. His spins are classic. Just how is this guy boring? He gives of himself to the audience, etc. I love brian's skating too but there is so much more to skating than the quads. Just to let folks know, Jeff said he was going to start training more on the quad. I did see him do one back in 2003 or 2004. It was a good one too.
. As for the quad, he's tried them before in competition and it's not gone well (didn't he fall on one in the 2006 Olympic LP?). I hope he gets a consistent quad to add to his programs, and that Johnny Weir is able to do a better job with them next season as well.
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- Joined
- Feb 4, 2008
They are both wonderful skaters, we all know that. But someone said that Buttle's skating is boring? How? He has the best edges, his artistry is outstanding. He is just so beautiful to watch. His spins are classic. Just how is this guy boring? He gives of himself to the audience, etc. I love brian's skating too but there is so much more to skating than the quads. Just to let folks know, Jeff said he was going to start training more on the quad. I did see him do one back in 2003 or 2004. It was a good one too.
Well I'm one of those who think Jeff's boring. Yes he has great edges etc... but articticly I just can't get into Jeff's skating. I have the impression that all throughout his program he's doing the same thing.
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2007
Jeff's landed a couple of quads in competition, but not since 2003 or 2004, I don't quite remember. His programs were much simpler then. The next year his programs got more intrecate and the quad went down hill. His placements increased though.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
MM - The Skating Ability has 6 categories. Maybe there should be more or less. Most of the 6 speak of stroking without mentioning it. If there is excellent stroking and flow why break it down? The skater has it, or somewhat has it, or doesn't at all have it and should be scored accordingly.
I'll bet the judges couldn't argue the 6 categories about the skaters.
How about that skating on one leg. A series of three turns into a loop jump would satisfy that.
My dish on this is that if a Senior skater can not produce satisfactory results in all the categories, they should not be in Seniors. Yet the judges will give different scores.
Back to Jeff: He has excellent stroking and flow. Better than some of his competitors.
Joe
I'll bet the judges couldn't argue the 6 categories about the skaters.
How about that skating on one leg. A series of three turns into a loop jump would satisfy that.
My dish on this is that if a Senior skater can not produce satisfactory results in all the categories, they should not be in Seniors. Yet the judges will give different scores.
Back to Jeff: He has excellent stroking and flow. Better than some of his competitors.
Joe
