The Case for Handwork: Balancing Art and Sport in Figure Skating

[Mathman]

Some(skaters) care most about performing artistically and don't really like to compete, but they only do so because the way the sport is structured and the way audiences are used to learning about skaters, competition is the best way to reach potential audiences. Once they have enough medals and fame to attract audiences, they may prefer to focus on show skating instead.

Some care most winning. Or about showing off their difficult athletic skills that they're most proud of.

Many skaters are jocks at heart and care most about the athletic feats.

Evan Lysacek always said that when he first started skating the only thing he cared about was skating fast. His biggest thrill was to be able to skate down to the end of the rink and back again before the other boys had even gone half way. (Kristi Yamaguchi was another whose big claim to fame as a beginner was how fast sher could skate.)

Evan didn't say why in the end he went into figure skating instead of speed skating.

But as for the question, do the majority of sports fans watch figure skating for the techincal display or for the performances, I sadly believe that the answer is "neither." Except perhaps for Russia and Japan, I fear that we are only talking amongst ourselves when we say that fiugre skating would be more popular if it were more sporty and less artsy, or vice versa.

 

[Mathematician]

Evan Lysacek always said that when he first started skating the only thing he cared about was skating fast. His biggest thrill was to be able to skate down to the end of the rink and back again before the other boys had even gone half way. (Kristi Yamaguchi was another whose big claim to fame as a beginner was how fast sher could skate.)

Evan didn't say why in the end he went into figure skating instead of speed skating.

But as for the question, do the majority of sports fans watch figure skating for the techincal display or for the performances, I sadly believe that the answer is "neither." Except perhaps for Russia and Japan, I fear that we are only talking amongst ourselves when we say that fiugre skating would be more popular if it were more sporty and less artsy, or vice versa.

I guess this moreso even ties to the original issue of this thread: its no coincidence that Russia and Japan as more artistically sophisticated nations also happen to be the powerhouses of figure skating.

 

[icewhite]

Oof, the thread is growing fast.
Just one thing I wanted to say: Performance doesn't equal art.

 

[yesterday]

I guess it's time for a meme
very straightforward this time

 

[skatesofgold]

Are (some) movies not art? Is ballet not art? Is theatre not art?

Your argument makes no sense if you admit those things are art. Skating is absolutely art, when people set out to create artistic programs, and competitive skating is very much something that can and HAS been art, and is all the better for it. The competitive environment heightens the tension of watching the art, of not knowing exactly what's going to happen. It creates one of most interesting dualities, wherein people are pushing themselves to the physical limit, with a form of movement that can not be replicated anywhere else, while at the same time trying to be as beautiful or entertaining as possible, giving a performance to an audience and to a piece of music, expressing their own being while fighting a battle.

It's fun to talk about, compare, and rank art, and this gives further interest to competitive skating, when it actually has artistic qualities worth talking about. When the scoring system was more understandable and easily calculatable in the past, people loved to give their own scores to a performance they just watched and then compare to the judges and with friends. This would still be possible for at least the PCS if each judges' score was displayed - we are already judging the components out of 10 and those numbers can be averaged together and put up on the scoreboard.



What basis do you have to make this claim? Jump competitions have been tried and never gained popularity. Compulsory figures themselves, an entirely technical endeavor, did not have popularity either. The audience wants a performance.

Men's gymnastics has a tiny fraction the amount of popularity as women's gymnastics, exactly because the Men's discipline has no music and never had a full performance aspect, and has continually moved further and further away from doing what is stylish, creating combinations that have a real flow and visual appeal, in favor of cramming as many difficulties as possible into a routine.

That's a very western view of men's gymnastics that you have. It's extremely popular in Russia, China, and Japan. In Japan, they even have men's rhythmic gymnastics.

 

[Mathman]

The point is, you cannot assert that figure skating is not an art ...

Personally, I find it very useful to mentally insert "In my opinion..." at the beginning of posts that declare, with great pomp and authority, that figure skating skating is (or is not) this or that."

We once had a (dearly cherished) Golden Skate member who actually used the words "I have spoken" once in a while. He wasn't saying that he was God, only that he had nothing more to say on the subject than he had already said.

As for complaints alomng the lines of "that's just your opinion" -- well, of course it is my opinion. I wouldn;t have said it if it weren't my opinion.

 

[Mathman]

I guess this moreso even ties to the original issue of this thread: its no coincidence that Russia and Japan as more artistically sophisticated nations also happen to be the powerhouses of figure skating.

It's hard to say. In the 1950s USA was the poweerhouse of figure skating, at least in mens. I never thought of the culture of 1950s America as being on the artistic cutting edge globally, despite Elvis Presley.

Actually, Ithis got my curiosity up. I Googled it: "What country is the most artistically sophisticated?"

The answer: Italy. So there we have it.

 

[skatesofgold]

I guess this moreso even ties to the original issue of this thread: its no coincidence that Russia and Japan as more artistically sophisticated nations also happen to be the powerhouses of figure skating.

Russia and Japan also have a different construct of masculinity. They don't see artistic sports as being more feminine, which is a huge problem in the United States.

 

[Mathematician]

Oof, the thread is growing fast.
Just one thing I wanted to say: Performance doesn't equal art.

I don't think anyone has made the argument that performance absolutely equals art.

Personally, I find it very useful to mentally insert "In my opinion..." at the beginning of posts that declare, with great pomp and authority, that figure skating skating is (or is not) this or that."

We once had a (dearly cherished) Golden Skate member who actually used the words "I have spoken" once in a while. He wasn't saying ng that he was God, only that he had nothing more to say on the subject than he had already said.

As for complaints alomng the lines of "that's just your opinion" -- well, of course it is my opinion. I wouldn;t have said it if it weren't my opinion.

But its quite literally not just an opinion.

If you argue that art in general is some false subjective classification of things, and would argue that no music, painting, book or dance can be considered art, then fair point.

But if you believe there is art, then you literally cannot prove any logical difference between any other "performance art" or figure skating which would necessarily mean it can't be art.

Here is the difference: if a single figure skating performance ever has been skated primarily as a cathartic and expressive experience with the goal of connecting to the viewer a specific sentimental idea, then it doesnt matter if every other skating performance ever was completey unconcerned emotionally; the existence of that single performance proves that figure skating can be an art and therefore the absolute blanket assertion that "figure skating is not art" is now fully ignorant and basically objectively wrong.

Therefore: you can make the assertion that "to me, figure skating is not artistic"; "to me, figure skating does not invoke emotions like music or painting"; "to me, I watch figure skating for the sport and not the expression". But, you cannot validly say "in my opinion, figure skating is not art". Thats like saying "in my opinion, figure skating doesnt take much skill." Like, technically you can say thay? But you're just wrong?

I guess it's time for a meme
very straightforward this time

Its more like: "figure skating is an art among other things, its also a first class sport! " versus "FIGURE SKATING UNEQUIVOCALLY IS NOT AN ART. NOBODY CAN SAY ITS AN ART. IF YOU EVER CRIED TO A FIGURE SKATING PERFORMANCE FROM ITS EXPRESSIVE RELATABILITY YOUR TEARS ARE WRONG BECAUSE POINTS!!! YOU ARENT ALLOWED TO FEEL CATHARTIC WATCHING THIS - ITS JUST A SPORT BECAUSE... THEY ALSO WANT POINTS!!!"

 

[Mathematician]

Please, if someone is convinced figure skating is absolutey not art, present an argument which counters what I've said.

I don't mean the "its not artistic to me" argument.

I mean, if you think you have actual logical proof for why figure skating cannot be art, please let me know. $100 bounty on anyone who can present this actual argument (its literally impossible ).

 

[Mathematician]

It's hard to say. In the 1950s USA was the poweerhouse of figure skating, at least in mens. I never thought of the culture of 1950s America as being on the artistic cutting edge globally, despite Elvis Presley.

Actually, Ithis got my curiosity up. I Googled it: "What country is the most artistically sophisticated?"

The answer: Italy. So there we have it.

Yes and in the 1950s America was also highly sophisticated. First of all Jazz is not a second class art (at least it wasn't back then) and America owned it, second of all lots of Soviet composers and performers moved there (i.e. Rachmaninoff, Horowitz), among other general European immigration as a result of of WW2. America fell off hard though for the same reasons I referenced by which it grew (wont go further and get political with this) and so did its figure skating scene - I think the correlation is there. And either way presense competitively doesn't necessarily mean interest comercially.

Also I agree with the answer of Italy, but I'd throw France in there on the same level probably. Russia is high up there of course too with its composers, pianists, ballerinas and writers, but I'd say art is more intrinsic to the cultures of the aforementioned two.

 

[el henry]

Russia and Japan also have a different construct of masculinity. They don't see artistic sports as being more feminine, which is a huge problem in the United States.

Our Russian posters here have said otherwise about Russia, when arguing in favor of emphasizing jumps and other supposedly "manly" attributes of figure skating.

I wouldn't know, I'm not Russian and I don't follow any Russian skating

 

[TallyT]

That's a very western view of men's gymnastics that you have. It's extremely popular in Russia, China, and Japan. In Japan, they even have men's rhythmic gymnastics.

Kōhei Uchimura performed at the Notte Stellata ice show, and he was absolutely mesmerising. Was it art? Was his piece with Yuzu art? I can honestly affirm it moved a lot of people's hearts.

Actually, Ithis got my curiosity up. I Googled it: "What country is the most artistically sophisticated?"

The answer: Italy. So there we have it.

Oh dear, Google is showing its enthnocentric side... {I would have said China myself, just pipping Italy.}

 

[Mathematician]

Kōhei Uchimura performed at the Notte Stellata ice show, and he was absolutely mesmerising. Was it art? Was his piece with Yuzu art? I can honestly affirm it moved a lot of people's hearts.



Oh dear, Google is showing its enthnocentric side... {I would have said China myself, just pipping Italy.}

China is definitely very artistic. But to me, I think like Russia art just isn't as intrinsic to the culture of China. For instance, without art, Italy is lost. But, to me, when I think of China I think of philosophy more than the traditional expressive arts - and without art China would still have great substance.

 

[TallyT]

China is definitely very artistic. But to me, I think like Russia art just isn't as intrinsic to the culture of China. For instance, without art, Italy is lost. But, to me, when I think of China I think of philosophy more than the traditional expressive arts - and without art China would still have great substance.

But the question Google answered was which was more artistically sophisticated...

I've just last night watched a program on the making of what is called (both on the program, all over the media and by many many many people a work of art in itself, the Millau Viaduct. And for good reason it is gorgeous and deliberately designed for beauty as well as function. So is the designer/architect of this, an artist?

And to try and get back to the article in question... the OP makes it clear he does believe that there needs to be more emphasis on the art in figure skating. Right or wrong, that's his argument. But how does anyone think it could be done, if it could at all?

 

[4everchan]

Art is in every country... what is this talk all about?

 

[Mathman]

I mean, if you think you have actual logical proof for why figure skating cannot be art...

Well, no, I do not have any any logical proof that figure skating is not and cannot be art. I do not jave any ;logical proof that figure skating is and must be art. That's kind of the point. In my opinion this question cannot be usefully addressed by logical argumentation.

If I wanted (I don't) to object to any part of your position, I might question the reliance on emotion as the factor that defines what is art and what isn't. I am not an expert in the philosophy of estheticcs -- what makes beautiful things beautiful -- but I would imagine that there could be "cool" works of art that, for instance, stimulate the intellect without necessarily evoking any particular emotion in the viewer.

 

[Mathematician]

But the question Google answered was which was more artistically sophisticated...

I've just last night watched a program on the making of what is called (both on the program, all over the media and by many many many people a work of art in itself, the Millau Viaduct. And for good reason it is gorgeous and deliberately designed for beauty and well as function. So is the designer/architect of this, an artist?

And to try and get back to the article in question... the OP makes it clear he does believe that there needs to be more emphasis on the art in figure skating. Right or wrong, that's his argument. But how does anyone think it could be done, if it could at all?

To your first statement, you're right, and I agree google can be Eurocentric. But also, you're googling in English, so you will get answers from English quara threads and articles etc... which are naturally going to be Eurocentric. If you searched in an Asian language, the answers would be quite different.

And also yes you're right the original topic of this thread was much more nuanced and sophisticated than what I was arguing. It's just, when I clicked this thread, I saw people all of a sudden making absolute claims that figure skating is not art, which struck me as a strange thing to say... and if people are making claims like that, how can they give a good discussion about the original topic? That's why I was making those posts. But yes, you're right.

 

[TallyT]

Our Russian posters here have said otherwise about Russia, when arguing in favor of emphasizing jumps and other supposedly "manly" attributes of figure skating.

I wouldn't know, I'm not Russian and I don't follow any Russian skating

But the Russians do love Yuzuru and Shoma (at least, I have read as such) true? Yes, they can jump with the best of them, but they are also admired for their artistic qualities and non-fear of sparkles and beauty.

 

[4everchan]

Well, no, I do not have any any logical proof that figure skating is not and cannot be art. I do not jave any ;logical proof that figure skating is and must be art. That's kind of the point. In my opinion this question cannot be usefully addressed by logical argumentation.

If I wanted (I don't) to object to any part of your position, I might question the reliance on emotion as the factor that defines what is art and what isn't. I am not an expert in the philosophy of estheticcs -- what makes beautiful things beautiful -- but I would imagine that there could be "cool" works of art that, for instance, stimulate the intellect without necessarily evoking any particular emotion in the viewer.

Emotional response is indeed not a prerequisite for art. I agree very much with that. I also wonder who would be the one deciding of the validity of an argument for or against figure skating = art ...