The Case for Handwork: Balancing Art and Sport in Figure Skating

[4everchan]

Doesn't everyone?

It depends with your specific relationship with music I guess? It is no secret that I love music. However, in figure skating, It is difficult to satisfy a hardcore classical music purist like I am. So, if I were to prefer programs based on music choices, I would be in big trouble. Even with music I love, for instance Mahler's adagietto. It's such a beautiful piece. Tessa and Scott did a great job with it. I loved the performance. But really, 4 minutes skating requires extreme music cuts. In that sense, though I appreciate the skating, i cannot say that I loved the music so much. One of my favourite programs of all times is Patrick's Journey... skated on one of the worst pieces of music ever (sorry Eric, love you man but not your piece !) So no, the relationship with music is not the same for everyone.

 

[TallyT]

It depends with your specific relationship with music I guess? It is no secret that I love music. However, in figure skating, It is difficult to satisfy a hardcore classical music purist like I am. So, if I were to prefer programs based on music choices, I would be in big trouble. Even with music I love, for instance Mahler's adagietto. It's such a beautiful piece. Tessa and Scott did a great job with it. I loved the performance. But really, 4 minutes skating requires extreme music cuts. In that sense, though I appreciate the skating, i cannot say that I loved the music so much. One of my favourite programs of all times is Patrick's Journey... skated on one of the worst pieces of music ever (sorry Eric, love you man but not your piece !) So no, the relationship with music is not the same for everyone.

But think how much more favourite it could have been with music... I'm not saying better because I do believe that taste is what it is for each person, and what is 'good' and 'bad' is not as fixed as we like to think, but better for you I even decided years ago to learn how to overlay music on videos so I could sometimes change it to better versions of a piece (or even change it completely, not that that would help with skating), And then there is the flipside of a wonderful skater making us like the music more - doesn't happen often but it's a nice feeling and usually involves expanding my own boundaries into musical areas they were previously rather... rigid in.

And it's similar with the visuals - I have learned to love some really weird and hopefully wonderful costumes because of the person wearing them and what they did when wearing them but on the other hand there are wonderful skates I don't watch often because the outfits actually hurt.

 

[Mathman]

I even decided years ago to learn how to overlay music on videos so I could sometimes change it to better versions of a piece (or even change it completely, not that that would help with skating),

Here's a fun game. Mute a figure skating performance, then play some other random music over it. Can you tell that this isn't the music he is akating to?

 

[4everchan]

Here's a fun game. Mute a figure skating performance, then play some other random music over it. Can you tell that this isn't the music he is akating to?

well... that game is a dangerous one for those really wanting to call figure skating art If any piece of music can fit the choreography... then, yeah. Just saying.

 

[skatesofgold]

Here's a fun game. Mute a figure skating performance, then play some other random music over it. Can you tell that this isn't the music he is akating to?

I put Anna Shcherbakova's 2020-2021 long program to a splicing of Joie de Vivre and the theme from Eternals. I though It went pretty well although the length wasn't perfect.

 

[Mathman]

well... that game is a dangerous one for those really wanting to call figure skating art If any piece of music can fit the choreography... then, yeah. Just saying.

Some performances are more artistic than others.

 

[4everchan]

Some performances are more artistic than others.

That's obviously a personal preference and wouldn't really affect the game you have proposed.

 

[TallyT]

That's obviously a personal preference and wouldn't really affect the game you have proposed.

Actually yes it would. Artistry (including music, dance, skating, you name is) is not, has never been of a uniformly superhigh standard and doesn't have to be to be art (which is fortunate, since the bar changes over time all the time). It's mostly the great performances that would not be the same with other music unless the latter was very very carefully tailored to it. More average programs, and more average music... sure.

 

[4everchan]

Actually yes it would. Artistry (including music, dance, skating, you name is) is not, has never been of a uniformly superhigh standard and doesn't have to be to be art (which is fortunate, since the bar changes over time all the time). It's mostly the great performances that would not be the same with other music unless the latter was very very carefully tailored to it. More average programs, and more average music... sure.

It all depends. The game proposed is not new... I recall some people playing it and changing music even of some of the ones deemed the greatest and it didn't make much difference. I will give you one very easy to check example : Piper and Paul, well-known for their interpretation and characterization of music, had a RD that wasn't so successful on some baroque music (I don't recall what it was, and it wasn't working out much for them. Carol just put the Beatles on it... and tadam: instant success with minor tweaks. Music, and I am sure you will disagree with this, is often quite secondary in this sport. Anyway, the season is starting in a bit less than two hours. This thread has had a long life. May it rest in peace !

The fix

The original :

 

[moonvine]

It's certainly worth discussing. And getting input from experts in performing arts and evaluation thereof. Some of whom are skating fans who post on these forums.

I don't think we're ever going to get a published document explaining every possible detail that could be covered by each of the written criteria.

I really wish I could find this video - I’ve found it before but can’t now. Anyway there was something similar to what you’re suggesting (sort of) and it was Uncle Dicks brainchild. It was for professional skaters (which they all are now) and judged by various experts in various fields independently of each other. They had experts in choreography, dance, I don’t remember what all. It was also held in Madison Square Garden which looked pretty full, though having been an extra in a tv show I know there are tricks to make it seem fuller than it actually is.

 

[Mathman]

It all depends. The game proposed is not new... I recall some people playing it and changing music even of some of the ones deemed the greatest and it didn't make much difference. I will give you one very easy to check example : Piper and Paul, well-known for their interpretation and characterization of music, had a RD that wasn't so successful on some baroque music (I don't recall what it was, and it wasn't working out much for them. Carol just put the Beatles on it... and tadam: instant success with minor tweaks. Music, and I am sure you will disagree with this, is often quite secondary in this sport. Anyway, the season is starting in a bit less than two hours. This thread has had a long life. May it rest in peace !

The fix

The original :

Very interesting. I think I like the Eric Bompard music better.

This isn't exactly the game I had in mind, though. Here Piper and Paul changed the music while keeping a lot of the old choeaography, but still in the world's performance they are skating to the music that we are hearing. What if you muted the music altogether and watched the performance while listening to Swan Lake? Would it come off as comically ridiculous, or would a good percentage of the aydience not know the difference?

 

[4everchan]

Very interesting. I think I like the Eric Bompard music better.

This isn't exactly the game I had in mind, though. Here Piper and Paul changed the music while keeping a lot of the old choeaography, but still in the world's performance they are skating to the music that we are hearing. What if you muted the music altogether and watched the performance while listening to Swan Lake? Would it come off as comically ridiculous, or would a good percentage of the aydience not know the difference?

I know what game you were playing but the first version is Mozart and Rameau... which got changed for the Beatles... To me, it's on the same playing field as anything, Swan Lake included.

Of course, this fix was done by them, voluntarily. They matched the tempo and the number of bars/beats. If you had someone doing a piece in 4/4 and then but a waltz (in 3/4) it may look odd at times, especially in dance. But even then, in singles it may even work.

Any music could work for most men's programs that start with the 4 jumping passes in the Skate skate skate, get to the end of the ice, JUMP, then repeat four times pattern.

 

[icewhite]

Bad sign for the program indeed when you can just use some other music.

 

[4everchan]

Bad sign for the program indeed when you can just use some other music.

I see this as the same as gymnastics floor routines... Yes, there are steps and some dance moves... but any music could do. As a matter of fact, the men don't even use music. It's not necessarily a bad thing : it just means that figure skating is a sport first and foremost. It's fun that we get costumes, music, and that some skaters truly care to project a story or deliver a message. But the point is that they want medals and for that, they need to get good TES... so while the music is great, while the costumes are fun, the focus is on optimizing the points they are going to get. Nothing sad really in my opinion.

 

[Mathman]

Any music could work for most men's programs that start with the 4 jumping passes in the Skate skate skate, get to the end of the ice, JUMP, then repeat four times pattern.

Nothing sad really in my opinion.

You and I might not be sad, but I think that we can understand people like the original blogger on this thread who are. And who hope for more out of a top flight figure skating performance than jump, jump, jump, jump, rest, rest, rest , jump, jump, jump, all while paying little attention the the (irrelevant) music.

Bad sign for the program indeed when you can just use some other music.

I think so, tpo. But this thread proves that not every skating fan agrees.

 

[4everchan]

You and I might not be sad, but I think that we can understand people like the original blogger on this thread who are. And who hope for more out of a top flight figure skating performance than jump, jump, jump, jump, rest, rest, rest , jump, jump, jump, all while paying little attention the the (irrelevant) music.



I think so, tpo. But this thread proves that not every skating fan agrees.

Yes. I am not sad. When I want great music or watch a ballet, I do that. When I want to watch a competition, I do so. To me, the exciting part of figure skating is the competition component. I actually rarely watch gala numbers. I find them boring. See... i am a weirdo So yeah, some fans would like figure skating to be more entertaining, sort of like performing arts... I do not. I prefer the sportive aspect of figure skating, and to me, that doesn't mean just jumps... it means what happens on the ice, with the blades. That's what I like the most in skating, such a refined athletic skill ! The skaters are truly amazing athletes !

And, of course, I know that for some of you and your friends, the experience may be different and that's fine.

 

[Mathman]

Here's how I look at it. I don't think that we do ourselves any favors by regarding music as the only TRUE ART and that the claim of other endeavors to be regarded as art forms can only rest on connections to music. Sculpture is an art. But we do not say that the reason it can be called an art is because the scuptor had the radio on while he was working.

To me, figure skating is a visual art. The heart of visual art is that it pleases the eye, even as music's cliam to artistic status is that it charms the ear. I do not disparage a great composer on the grounds that he doesn't look good while he is composing. So with figure skating. Graceful gliding and well-executed blade work have aesthetic appeal to me, and this would be so whether music is playing or not. Artfully traced school figures were pleasing to the eye -- the more so when you considered their history from the days when young swains would try to carve their girlfriend's initials on the ice at the local pond.

To me, figure skating stands on its own merit. No, figure skating is not sculpture (thrugh ice carving might be ) It is quite true that if I want to admire a great work of architecture I don't go to the local skating rink to do so. To jump from this observation to "therefore skating is not an art" -- that seems like a gap in logic, not just "what me and my friends like."

 

[4everchan]

Here's how I look at it. I don't think that we do ourselves any favors by regarding music as the only TRUE ART and that the claim of other endeavors to be regarded as art forms can only rest on connections to music. Sculpture is an art. But we do not say that the reason it can be called an art is because the scuptor had the radio on while he was working.

To me, figure skating is a visual art. The heart of visual art is that it pleases the eye, even as music's cliam to artistic status is that it charms the ear. I do not disparage a great composer on the grounds that he doesn't look good while he is composing. So with figure skating. Graceful gliding and well-executed blade work have aesthetic appeal to me, and this would be so whether music is playing or not. Artfully traced school figures were pleasing to the eye -- the more so when you considered their history from the days when young swains would try to carve their girlfriend's initials on the ice at the local pond.

To me, figure skating stands on its own merit. No, figure skating is not sculpture (thrugh ice carving might be ) It is quite true that if I want to admire a great work of architecture I don't go to the local skating rink to do so. To jump from this observation to "therefore skating is not an art" -- that seems like a gap in logic, not just "what me and my friends like."

Feel free to turn it whichever way you wish : nobody will send the cops after you. Your beliefs and your perceptions do belong to you (and your friends). I think we have established that a long time ago in this thread.

 

[Mathman]

I think we have established that a long time ago in this thread.

I disagree. A lot of people have said so, but that (to me ) does not establish that the questions "what is art" and "upon what principles does figure skating's claim to aesthetic status rest" have no answer.

To say that "art means whatever I and my friends want it to mean" and the word has no other meaning or proper use, no, I can't go along with that (and neither can mny friends )

As for the cops being after me, I welcome a viisit from the logic police. I am practicing my mug shot pose even as we speak.

 

[4everchan]

I disagree. A lot of people have said so, but that (to me ) does not establish that the questions "what is art" and "upon what principles does figure skating's claim to aesthetic status rest" have no answer.

To say that "art means whatever I and my friends want it to mean" and the word has no other meaning or proper use, no, I can't go along with that (and neither can mny friends )

As for the cops being after me, I welcome a viisit from the logic police. I am practicing my mug shot pose even as we speak.

well.. then if you want to know, visual arts and the way blades move on the ice have nothing to do with one another, unless you want to call hockey and speed skating visual art too. Those guys are masters of the blade too . .I was trying to get you a "get out of jail card" but since you don't want it, then I am calling the cops.