The Case for Handwork: Balancing Art and Sport in Figure Skating

[icewhite]

If the art doesn't matter, then it's a waste of their time and effort (and money on copyright).

I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding there.
It's apparently more about what we regard as art. What you call art, I call artistry. I don't want to throw out the artistry, but I'm contending it's art.

I see, it doesn't work that well in English, it's the German words I have in mind, and of course words have a heavy influence on concepts. I think this just shows even more that we are talking about different concepts of art here. What we should really talk about (and I'm sorry for doing my huge part in misleading the discussion here) is what we want figure skating and it's scoring to be like.

 

[CrazyKittenLady]

I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding there.
It's apparently more about what we regard as art. What you call art, I call artistry. I don't want to throw out the artistry, but I'm contending it's art.

I see, it doesn't work that well in English, it's the German words I have in mind, and of course words have a heavy influence on concepts.

Out of curiosity, what German words are you thinking of?

 

[Mathman]

I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding there.
It's apparently more about what we regard as art. What you call art, I call artistry.

I think it is a hopeless case. The Collins on-line dictionary defines "artistry" thus: "Artistry is the creative skill of an artist, writer, actor, or musician." (I assume that "artist" in this sentence means painter.) "Artistic" means "pertaining to or characteristic of art or artistry."

A "con artist" is a clever swindler. Dickens presented a character called the Artful Dodger. This meant that he was adroit at picking pockets and then dodging (evading) the police. The ISU in general tries to get around the linguistic quagmire by talking about "performance qualities" and "grades of execution", avoiding words like "artistic" as much as possible. PCSs are "program component scores," not the "artistic mark" (or "style points").

[What are "style points?

(a) "in some sports such as ski jumping and skateboarding, competitors are awarded points for the style in which they perform certain moves"

(b) In American college football "style points" refers to how miuch you beat your opponent by versus the strength of that opponent. Style points are taken into account in determining which teams make the playoffs.]

 

[icewhite]

Out of curiosity, what German words are you thinking of?

I think in German I would use "Kunst" and "Kunstfertigkeit". Although it's really difficult. I looked up "artistry" and as I had in mind it means "Kunstfertigkeit" as well as "Artistik", but also actually "Kunst" itself in the sense of "Künstlertum" - which I wouldn't have used it for - so, considering that, basically everything I said here doesn't make much sense (in English).
Of course in German there are many expressions with "Kunst" like "die Kunst des Krieges" (the art of war") or something as well, where it basically means skill/ mastery/ competence. That's the way I understand "Eiskunstlauf".
When I use "Kunst" in German in the sense of "it is Kunst/ is it Kunst" that is, in my mind/terms/concept something very different from such terms, it's the discussion about Beuys and ready-mades and such, the self-definition of artists, concepts of genius or not... I think a lot of what is talked about as "art" in the original article I would translate and regard as "Kunsthandwerk", which, in my eyes, maybe due to what I was taught at (school and) university, is not "Kunst".

 

[icewhite]

I think it is a hopeless case. The Collins on-line dictionary defines "artistry" thus: "Artistry is the creative skill of an artist, writer, actor, or musician." (I assume that "artist" in this sentence means painter.) "Artistic" means "pertaining to or characteristic of art or artistry."

A "con artist" is a clever swindler. Dickens presented a character called the Artful Dodger. This meant that he was adroit at picking pockets and then dodging (evading) the police. The ISU in general tries to get around the linguistic quagmire by talking about "performance qualities" and "grades of execution", avoiding words like "artistic" as much as possible. PCSs are "program component scores," not the "artistic mark" (or "style points").

I have tried to explain it a bit in my post above.
It took me a while to really understand I didn't know the exact meaning or use of the word artistry in English.
My concept remains the same, but I do now see why some things I wrote may not really make much sense to a native speaker.

 

[4everchan]

If the art doesn't matter, then it's a waste of their time and effort (and money on copyright).

Music copyrights are not usually paid directly by skaters, licenses are paid by venues and used for a bunch of activities where music is needed like recreational skating etc. I and others have explained that in various threads. One of the most expensive sports is bobsleigh. These athletes also invest time effort and money to compete. I do not see the link you are making with money at all. There is not a single Olympic athlete in any sport who doesn't spend time effort and money on their sport.

 

[Mathman]

I think in German I would use "Kunst" and "Kunstfertigkeit".

I think that if I were in charge of inventing a new language, the distiction that I would draw would be between the "useful arts" (crafts) and "elevating arts" (fine arts). (By the way, the English word "craft" has strayed quite a bit from the German "Kraft," while "crafty" refers to an unscupulous small-time crook trying to cheat you out of your money. )

What could be more useful to a hunting-gathering economy than the "useful art" of basketweaving? Unless it might be the useful art of pottery which allows people to store water. (Or of flint knapping which allowed stone age people to fashion the stone axes used for field- butchering.) Of course, we humans can't leave it at that. Pretty soon we start decorating our pots until we have a Ming vase, universally admired as a work of "elevating art" and worth thousands of dollars if you own one.

This wouldn't help the figure skating debate, though. There is nothing ecomomically useful about a figure skating performance. But does it elevate and refine our culture and civilization, or would we be just as elevarted and refined if figure skating did not exist? Maybe we need a third category, "entertainment which borrows aesthetic elements from elevating arts and useful crafts."

 

[Mathman]

Truth be known, I do not think that figure skating does itself any favors by incesrently beating on the drum, "It's Art! It's Art!" Likewise, "It's a sport! It's a sport!" is not really helpful. There are many artists who do not believe that figure skating is an art. There are many sportsmen who do not think that figure skating is a sport. Neither group will change its tune just because we twiddle with the scoring system.

Maybe we need a two-tiered definition of "sport" as well as "art." One category is "Higher, faster, stornger.". This comprises foot races, high-jumping and weight-lifting. These are the true sports. Any other sport is an unwanted step-child whose only interest derives from sharing attributes with the Big Three. If you want to include team sports, make it "higher, faster, stronger, better teamwork."

The other category would be the "skill sports," like figure skating. The defining characteristic would be that the athlete must demonstrate a variety of disparate but related skills all wrapped up in a coherent bundle.

Edited to add: By the way, just as the sport of automoblie racing is a technology-augmented version of foot racing, there is a sport of weight-lifting using a crane. The current world record is 20,133 tonnes. Now,that's sport !

 

[4everchan]

I believe most sports people, maybe not couch coaches, nowadays truly understand how serious athletes figure skaters are. I do not think sportsmen would say that figure skating is not sport. Sounds like something hockey uncles may have said three decades ago.

 

[Mathman]

Sounds like something hockey uncles may have said three decades ago.

I haven't taken a poll, but I would bet that the hockey uncle crowd and their myriad progeny are still holding forth three decades later with disparaging remarks about our sport. Their loss. But I think that we are wasting our time trying to convert anyone who doesn't want to be converted.

 

[4everchan]

I haven't taken a poll, but I would bet that the hockey uncle crowd and their myriad progeny are still holding forth three decades later with disparaging remarks about our sport. Their loss. But I think that we are wasting our time trying to convert anyone who doesn't want to be converted.

well.. there will always be people to denigrate a bunch of things... but the point I was making is that I strongly believe that the majority of people denigrating figure skaters is from the past... The technical prowess of some skaters have really made people realize that it requires not only years of training and skill to land big jumps but also a lot of courage. I will use the ME and MY friends phrase here but figure skating is seen at the same level as gymnastics, diving, freestyle skiing and snowboarding. I think that the arrival of some of these newer sports from the winter X games to the Olympics has made people realize what figure skaters truly are. Extreme athletes.

 

[Diana Delafield]

I believe most sports people, maybe not couch coaches, nowadays truly understand how serious athletes figure skaters are. I do not think sportsmen would say that figure skating is not sport. Sounds like something hockey uncles may have said three decades ago.

Depended on who, where, and when. Still does, I think.

1991, nice spring day in a multi-rink arena in Richmond. My partner and I drew the main rink off the lobby that day (we rented private ice, cheap on a weekday around noon). We're practising to keep our skills sharp while we mull over maybe entering a summer adult competition. Through the glass we see a bus pull up outside and the lobby fills with adult hockey players who disappear into a dressing room. One of the ice workers tells us: "Moscow Dynamo team, here for an exhibition tour. Practice session on this sheet right after you." My partner turns pale. As the players, now kitted up, gradually file in, they are the toughest, most battered bunch of men I can ever recall seeing, every face scarred, healed broken noses, the lot. Put them on motorcycles and they'd fit right in to a bikers' convention.

I thought my partner was going to suggest cutting our session short, and I was going to protest, but he scrabbled through our music and slotted a Zorba the Greek CD into the player, grabbed my hand and hauled me to the far end of the ice. "We're having a good day, right? OK, we're going to do our whole list of big tricks, one after the other, no stopping between. If you get tired, let me know and we'll stop before you get hurt." Fine by me. No panic for the only female in the rink. I understood what he wanted, and thought The Male Ego bit was kind of cute.

So we took off with the music and threw everything we had at our audience, who now filled the benches and were quietly watching, with a coach or two pacing behind them. We'd done combo spins, a throw or two, a few adagio moves, a death spiral, and then tossed up one of the highest twists I've ever done (woooo!). That's when the drumming started to reverberate up through the ice. The players were all leaning forward, beating the boards with their sticks in applause.

When we finally came off the ice, we were greeted with big toothless smiles, these battered biker-types telling me, "You brave lady!", and one poked my partner for emphasis as he said, "I no good skater, I play hockey as kid. My son, he more good than me, he big like me, now he skate pair like you. You big, you skate good, and you keep little lady safe. You real sportsman!"

We still agree, more than 30 years later, the drumming applause that afternoon was our biggest thrill skating for an audience. Maybe it's random and local, maybe it's just Canada, but most of the boys and men I knew both skated and played hockey, without any major incident or negativity. Or maybe they just didn't talk about it?

 

[Mathman]

^ I think the difference is that these rough and tumble hockey players are athletes themselves, so it was easy for them to recognize and appreciate your skill, strength, bravery and hard work.

Michelle Kwan in her heyday had quite a few friends who were professional basketball players, in particular Carl Malone and Diikembe Mutombo. They could not have been more respectful and admiring of her work. They knew what it takes for any athlete in any sport to win a national or world championship. Michelle had 9 and 5.

 

[4everchan]

There are many sportsmen who do not think that figure skating is a sport. Neither group will change its tune just because we twiddle with the scoring system.

^ I think the difference is that these rough and tumble hockey players are athletes themselves, so it was easy for them to recognize and appreciate your skill, strength, bravery and hard work.

Michelle Kwan in her heyday had quite a few friends who were professional basketball players, in particular Carl Malone and Diikembe Mutombo. They could not have been more respectful and admiring of her work. They knew what it takes for any athlete in any sport to win a national or world championship. Michelle had 9 and 5.

I am confused then. In the first post you said that many sportsmen do not think that figure skating is a sport which is why I posted what I posted because I don't believe it's true at all... but then you say the opposite. Is it something I didn't understand?

 

[Mathman]

I think that the arrival of some of these newer sports from the winter X games to the Olympics has made people realize what figure skaters truly are. Extreme athletes.

We'll have to wait and see how it plays out. To me, the mantra should be, "Make new friends and keep the old, one is silver and the other gold.

Anyway, I think you are preaching to the choir here on Golden Skate. I don't think anyone here has a quarrel with those who wax rapturous about the sportiness of the sport of figure skating. By the same token, I don't think we should mutter “misuse of language” when artsy fans insist that figure skating is an art.

Big tent – that’s the ticket. Something for everybody, and all going on at the same time. Do you like the daring young man on the flying trapeze, or the big cats? Step right up! Come one, come all!

 

[4everchan]

We'll have to wait and see how it plays out. To me, the mantra should be, "Make new friends and keep the old, one is silver and the other gold.

Anyway, I think you are preaching to the choir here on Golden Skate. I don't think anyone here has a quarrel with those who wax rapturous about the sportiness of the sport of figure skating. By the same token, I don't think we should mutter “misuse of language” when artsy fans insist that figure skating is an art.

Big tent – that’s the ticket. Something for everybody, and all going on at the same time. Do you like the daring young man on the flying trapeze, or the big cats? Step right up! Come one, come all!

I prefer the clowns. Send in the clowns.

 

[Mathman]

I am confused then. In the first post you said that many sportsmen do not think that figure skating is a sport which is why I posted what I posted because I don't believe it's true at all... but then you say the opposite. Is it something I didn't understand?

I guess i used the wrong word. I meant casual consumers of sports on TV, week-end golfers and blowhards that pontificate in sports bars., not so much the professional athletes themselves. (Not that there is anything wrong with playing golf on the weekend.)

 

[Mathman]

I prefer the clowns. Send in the clowns.

Me and my friends do, too.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/jgrLRS3ChTM/hqdefault.jpg

 

[TallyT]

Music copyrights are not usually paid directly by skaters, licenses are paid by venues and used for a bunch of activities where music is needed like recreational skating etc. I and others have explained that in various threads. One of the most expensive sports is bobsleigh. These athletes also invest time effort and money to compete. I do not see the link you are making with money at all. There is not a single Olympic athlete in any sport who doesn't spend time effort and money on their sport.

Agreed, but the money needs to be divided up; the venues need to decide where to spend their limited resources. They can also cut the music or use cheap muzak like supermarkets and use the money saved for better ice maintenance. It will also make it much easier on some skaters if they don't have to pretend to like and feel Ye Standard Hoary Warhorse or Horrendously Cut Bad Show Tune - or New and Excitingly Daring! (in fs terms) Piece and can just concentrate on getting through the bald athletic bits as fast and as clean as possible.

Of course I am being sarky here. But the thing is, the music is not needed for sport. Just for the artistic side. Like costumes. We don't need (but being human we do so like and yes I include me) to keep shifting the goalposts every time something we like is involved.

I think that if I were in charge of inventing a new language, the distiction that I would draw would be between the "useful arts" (crafts) and "elevating arts" (fine arts).

You also need 'decorative arts' and 'popular' arts. And there would still be arguments about where Faberge, Lalique, art embroidery, church silverware, medieval manuscripts, Banksy, Neuschwanstein Castle, haute couture and the Raphael cartoons fit in. But they're all accepted in one or another definition of art.

Figure skating isn't 'art' but it, like theatre, dancesport and many other things, can be artistic and are for many better when they are. Because many folk like it that way. @4everchan and many others may not care for galas and shows, which is perfectly fair and right, but a hell of a lot of fans do (witness GIFT, the other Japanese and Russian shows, and the complaining when it was proposed that the Worlds gala be dumped for Zakarian's awards).

But does it elevate and refine our culture and civilization, or would we be just as elevarted and refined if figure skating did not exist?

Would we if opera didn't (there are plenty of other forms of music after all)? Or ballet, or Dragon Boat festivals?

 

[4everchan]

Agreed, but the money needs to be divided up; the venues need to decide where to spend their limited resources. They can also cut the music or use cheap muzak like supermarkets and use the money saved for better ice maintenance. It will also make it much easier on some skaters if they don't have to pretend to like and feel Ye Standard Hoary Warhorse or Horrendously Cut Bad Show Tune - or New and Excitingly Daring! (in fs terms) Piece and can just concentrate on getting through the bald athletic bits as fast and as clean as possible.

It doesn't work like this.... Just read about it. It's not about individual pieces or anything like that. Any venue, whether it's a rink or a dentist office must pay a license to play music, no matter what music is played.

Music Licensing

www.socan.com

I am not going to address the rest of your post because it's been done ad nauseam in this thread.