The Case for Handwork: Balancing Art and Sport in Figure Skating

[4everchan]

I guess i used the wrong word. I meant casual consumers of sports on TV, week-end golfers and blowhards that pontificate in sports bars., not so much the professional athletes themselves. (Not that there is anything wrong with playing golf on the weekend.)

Fair enough. i called them couch coaches. Again, semantics
I think this thread needs to be closed... it keeps growing and growing and growing and clearly, the reality is that figure skating is figure skating and because of its diverse components, it does attract many kinds of fans. All the fans are good and welcome, but there is no way that all these people coming from different backgrounds with their own baggage and perception will come to a consensus about the semantics

Cheerio !

 

[Mathman]

OT. If anyone is searching for the greatest performances to Send in the Clowns, don't bother, they're here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrsH9vWq0Xg

Rudy Galindo - Send In The Clowns (2000)

@2000 Champions on IceMusic by Judy Collins

www.youtube.com

 

[dorispulaski]

Rudy's skate is one of my nominees for best use of a prop in skating

 

[NanaPat]

Rudy's skate is one of my nominees for best use of a prop in skating

My nominee: Peng/Jin with a SWORD

 

[Weathergal]

OT. If anyone is searching for the greatest performances to Send in the Clowns, don't bother, they're here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrsH9vWq0Xg

Rudy Galindo - Send In The Clowns (2000)

@2000 Champions on IceMusic by Judy Collins

www.youtube.com

Rudy's skate is one of my nominees for best use of a prop in skating

I hadn't watched either of those in a while - thanks for sharing those links. And yes, props to Rudy for the prop usage! Also way to go with the cartwheel - ahead of its time! LOL

 

[Weathergal]

My nominee: Peng/Jin with a SWORD

What a beautiful program with an interesting use of a prop!

 

[4everchan]

because i like controversy (just kidding !)

 

[Mathman]

because i like controversy (just kidding !)

Plus great music, great costumes!

 

[Regjohn1]

There was about Yuna and as I said, I do wonder if that did damage to the sport's popularity there that still hasn't quite healed. I happily admit, I have no proof. Did Mao's problem scores (deserved or not in some cases) add to the eclipsing of the women's discipline by the men? Who knows. I only know what I think looking at it.

Whatever the reason, losing widely loved skaters does of course impact, especially when there is no one who can take that place. And this is not Me and My Friends the ISU themselves (and I bet it hurt) noted the blow to their finances and equally importantly Japanese media coverage and revenues from "the retirement from competitive skating of the most popular Japanese Skater" in the 2023 financial report. Interesting too that although the very very popular few are no slouch at the technical, they are as if not more well known for being gorgeous on the ice. They also had IT of course (and way more than their share of stunning physical beauty which makes it rough on lesser mortals), and no amount of explaining the rules, tweaking the judging, or upping the aesthetics/skills of the skating itself is gonna do a damn thing about that. It's the nature of a highly creative sport-with-art.

Aaaaand so we are back to "I'm an artistic athlete". And wanting more of them. And still wondering what the original article's writer's beef actually was 17 pages ago

Figure skating's popularity has not been damaged from 2014; that's just sour grapes.
The ultra-c revolution created massive mega stars in Sasha, Anna, Aliona, Young, Rika, Alysa, etc.
Most of the viral figure skating videos are from women's singles skaters post 2014.
Searches for figure skating increased post 2014.

https://i.redd.it/05fjj6d9cmj81.png

 

[TallyT]

Figure skating's popularity has not been damaged from 2014; that's just sour grapes.
The ultra-c revolution created massive mega stars in Sasha, Anna, Aliona, Young, Rika, Alysa, etc.
Most of the viral figure skating videos are from women's singles skaters post 2014.
Searches for figure skating increased post 2014.

https://i.redd.it/05fjj6d9cmj81.png

My first sentence wondered if it was damaged there. As, clearly and unambiguously, in Korea itself. I will concede, a determined misreading of the following sentence about Japan is rather more possible. I should have clearly written "the eclipsing of the women's discipline by the men in Japan." My apologies.

Because no, even in my weirdest 'what the hell did I eat before bed' dreams I have not seen the Russian or most other countries' men eclipsing their women. Though 'sour grapes' is a bit rich, considering who my main man actually is......

 

[4everchan]

Yes, the quad revolution in women skating has brought tons of new fans and intrigued followers. However, let's not put our head in the sand here : the 2022 scandal has also brought a "not yet again..."kind of feeling.

 

[skatesofgold]

I believe most sports people, maybe not couch coaches, nowadays truly understand how serious athletes figure skaters are. I do not think sportsmen would say that figure skating is not sport. Sounds like something hockey uncles may have said three decades ago.

I don't know. One of Yahoo's sports reporters, Dan Wetzel, still doesn't think any sport that has an artistic component is a sport, but I think he hates the Olympics in the first place. They always bring out the worst in his reporting. He seems bitter. I don't know why.

 

[4everchan]

I don't know. One of Yahoo's sports reporters, Dan Wetzel, still doesn't think any sport that has an artistic component is a sport, but I think he hates the Olympics in the first place. They always bring out the worst in his reporting. He seems bitter. I don't know why.

there will always be some people like that. I remember people making fun of artistic swimming... until they tried it. I think Battle of the blades is also a good example of how figure skating has challenged some of the stereotypes. Same with so many figure skaters coaching powerskating to hockey players.

 

[TallyT]

This came up on my twitter feed under the heading "this moche dog vessel (pre-700 AD, modern day peru) is probably the best piece of art ever made" and it was so timely given this long thread... I had to share II also love it, even if it is very off the skating topic) Art really is what we make it...

 

[moonvine]

This is still going on? *hiding*

 

[el henry]

This is still going on? *hiding*

Before this, the last post in this thread was August 29 I'm not sure I consider eleven days ago "still going on"....

 

[moonvine]

Before this, the last post in this thread was August 29 I'm not sure I consider eleven days ago "still going on"....

It was on the front row of posts. I guess if I hadn't said anything it might have slipped to the 2nd page.

 

[4everchan]

It was on the front row of posts. I guess if I hadn't said anything it might have slipped to the 2nd page.

that might have been a good thing

 

[eppen]

Inspired by this thread I went into looking at men's free skates from the 1970s onwards. The earliest part for checking out what they were doing in the 5-minute free and after that (1982 onwards), what went on in the 4 min 30 s program compared to the current 4-min one. How do they accommodate all those quads into roughly the same amount of time when the common thinking is that it takes a long time to set up the quads?

I timed how long they used to prep and do each element counting from when they landed a jump to when the spin ended etc. Did a list and added up how long they used for jumps, spins and steps and other things. Tried to do this for at least 10 different programs/skaters from different years for each length of program. Did some extra for the early IJS to compare what happened before and after the rule changes.

The structure of the program varied most during the 1970s - the number of elements was not regulated and there could be 15 or 25 of them. But in general you can say that it always started with short intro before a few jumping passes followed by a spin and/or steps followed by more jumping passes and ending with steps and/or spins. The 1980s introduced a slow section in the middle which very often meant 10 to 30 s of light choreo, standing around, posturing etc. before the second jump passes went on. This disappeared with the 4 minute program.

The number of elements has been going down and ofc there are now rules limiting the types and numbers. But your 5-min program for top men included 10 to 13 jumps, 4 to 6 spins and then 2-3 bits that I have interpreted as step sequences - they're clearly not prep for jumps or spins. In average, jumps took about 139 seconds or 2 min and 19 s, almost half of the program. Spins took aout a minute of the program and steps 1 min 20 s.

From the late 1980s onwards until 2018 when the 4 min program was introduced, the element content was pretty uniform: 8 jumps, 3-4 spins and 2-3 step sequences. There were 4 guys who did only triples and they used about 130 s to their 8 jumps or 2 min and 10 s or almost 50% of their program. The 4 guys with 1-2 quads used in average 117 s to their jumps, which is just shy of 2 min. The multiple quadsters (3 or more) with 8 jump passes used about 125 s to their jumps or 2 min and 5 s.

Then the 4 minute and 7 jump programs from 10 guys, top 5 from 2021 and 2023 worlds and then someone with triples to get comparison. Only two triples guys here, Andreas Nordeback and Jason Brown, they used about a 100 s or 1 min and 40 s to their jumps. The men who did 1-2 quads and triples (Kolyada, Aymoz, Cha) used 110 s to their jumps or 1 min 50 s (almost 50% of the program). The multiple quadsters were Chen (twice), Kagiyama, Hanyu, Uno, and Malinin and their average was 114 s. Malinin used 105 s, Uno 128 s.

The difference between the time Jason Brown and Ilia Malinin used to do their jumps was 10 s: Jason 95 and Ilia 105. Jason used his extra seconds to do a very long intro - 32 s. His spins took roughly the average time at 55 s, but his steps/ChSq were on the short side at 55 s as the average was 68 s.

Quadsters tend to be good at jumping which means that they need about the same time to prep for a 4A than a mediocre jumper does to get ready to do a 3A combo. You could also break down the transitions and what happens in general between the elements, but that I did not have energy to do.

I do wonder about general impressions - Shoma uses about 20 s to do his quads compared to Ilia who uses about 15 s. Shoma does seem to be regarded as an artistic skater, whereas Ilia is a jumper. A couple years ago someone did analyses of the transistions and I IIRC Shoma was the crossover king and my impression is that has not changed drastically.

The program structure was also amusingly uniform for just about everyone. There was some variation in the second part, especially for the skaters with less jump difficulty, but in general this is how they used the 4 minutes. The most common option first and then other ones in the order of popularity.

Introduction 15 s
1st jump 12 s
2nd jump 22 s
3rd jump 18 s
4th jump 13 s or Spin 23 s
Spin 19 s or Jump 21 s or Steps/ChSq 27 s
Steps/ChSq 37 s or Spin 24 s or Jump 12 s
(2 minutes done!)
Jump 15 s or Steps/ChSq 56 s or Spin 11 s
Jump 18 s or Steps/ChSq 40 s
Jump 13 s or Spin 15 s
Steps/ChSq 30 s or Spin 12 s or Jump 12 s
Spin 17 s or Steps/ChSq 24 s or Jump 6 s
Spin 18 s or Steps/ChSq 30 s
End 3 s

This last bit is also an argument for the "not art but sport" opinion. I don't think any kind of dance made for art (or even routines made to participate in dance competitions) could be broken down this way :-D

E

 

[4everchan]

The program structure was also amusingly uniform for just about everyone. There was some variation in the second part, especially for the skaters with less jump difficulty, but in general this is how they used the 4 minutes. The most common option first and then other ones in the order of popularity.

Introduction 15 s
1st jump 12 s
2nd jump 22 s
3rd jump 18 s
4th jump 13 s or Spin 23 s
Spin 19 s or Jump 21 s or Steps/ChSq 27 s
Steps/ChSq 37 s or Spin 24 s or Jump 12 s
(2 minutes done!)
Jump 15 s or Steps/ChSq 56 s or Spin 11 s
Jump 18 s or Steps/ChSq 40 s
Jump 13 s or Spin 15 s
Steps/ChSq 30 s or Spin 12 s or Jump 12 s
Spin 17 s or Steps/ChSq 24 s or Jump 6 s
Spin 18 s or Steps/ChSq 30 s
End 3 s

This last bit is also an argument for the "not art but sport" opinion. I don't think any kind of dance made for art (or even routines made to participate in dance competitions) could be broken down this way :-D

E

Thanks for taking the time to do this... it surely goes along with my perception of the sport... Nowadays, we can even predict that the 4th jumping pass will be the triple loop for a large number of guys... as they backload some of the more rewarding jumps and have to put the very difficult jumping passes at first... At this point it is so regulated and it shows that the focus is on the optimal inclusion of the elements into time, to get the maximum of points. Very little to do about art.