Double penalty on under-rotation: Pros and Cons? | Page 4 | Golden Skate

Double penalty on under-rotation: Pros and Cons?

I agree with Chris H's analysis.

But then the rules say that the judges have to put an additional penalty of -1 to -3 GOE specifically for the underrotation. The judges can also evaluate other aspects, like proper take-off, in air position, hand down, etc., but that is a separate issue from the underrotation.

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The GOE reduction for under rotation is for an error in the air phase of the jump so it is not a separate issue. You can also have a reduction for the landing phase of a under rotated or downgraded jump. This is consistent in the GOE reductions for all skating elements when evaluating the phases of the elements under IJS. The GOE reduction of -1 to -3 is for a jump that has been downgraded ( as opposed to an under rotation). This originally was a mandatory -2 GOE , but because of the penalty of getting the lower base value, the ISU changed this in the last year or so.

There is still a mandatory -2 GOE for an under rotated jump.

The difference is that an UR ( not downgraded) jump can still have a 0 ( + 2 in two phase, -2 in two phases)and a downgraded jump has to end up with a negative GOE.

Again, downgraded jumps have egregious errors in them and therefore are subject to much harsher penalties. That is the rule at this point in time, and the skaters and coaches are well aware of this.
 
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Yu Na Kim fell on a horribly cheated triple jump in her short program at 2008
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdnYw8KG2PA
I don't think one can accurately tell that her 3lutz landing was "horribly cheated" (i.e., more than one-quarter turn) from this particular TV angle? As I understand it, the technical panel reviews the super slow-motion replays from an angle that is not the same as used for the TV broadcasts?
 
I don't think one can accurately tell that her 3lutz landing was "horribly cheated" (i.e., more than one-quarter turn) from this particular TV angle? As I understand it, the technical panel reviews the super slow-motion replays from an angle that is not the same as used for the TV broadcasts?

Did you watch the slo-mo replay? Let me just say this, many, if not most downgraded triples were not as severely underrotated as this one. I certainly don't believe Nakano's two downgraded triples were as bad as Yu Na's.
 
This is the sort of dishonest opinion from skating judges that ticks off fans and ordinary audience. How the earth can they tell audience with a straight face whether a jump is 85 degrees or 95 degrees short of rotation?

In many occasions, skating judges are simply cheating to curry favor for or put down on certain skaters, and they have the nerves to make all sorts of excuses, and tell us they are simply following the rules and doing the job.

Yu Na Kim fell on a horribly cheated triple jump in her short program at 2008
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdnYw8KG2PA

Read the protocol, she got full credit for it. Did we hear any complaint about this? NO. Why? Because she's the favorite, she's supposed to have good/full rotated triples.

Please do not make excuse for skating judges. Many of them indeed make us to question their honesty.

A judge does not downgrade a jump. The technical panel downgrades a jump. They can look at the jump in slow motion to determine the starting and landing point of a jump and count the rotations.
A judge gives a GOE on a jump that they have witnessed real time during the skating of a program. If the tech panel decides to downgrade, they inform the judging panel and they can adjust their GOE's accordingly.

Not all judges will see a slightly under rotated jump done by a skater. It all depends on where the judge is sitting and where the skater has placed the jump on the ice. That is why you can see a variation in the GOE's on different elements in a program.

I will not get into a debate over judges as you obviously have strong opinions and nothing that I or anyone can say will change your mind. In the US, judges are accountable for their marks and their placements. This is not always so at ISU events where anonymous judging is still practiced.

Also remember that judges are volunteers. They do not get paid, this is not their profession. They do ( in the US) have to spend many hours and dollars on continuing education and training. Most in the US take their judging very seriously and try their best to do right by the skaters.

Technical panel members have a difficult job and try their best to make the correct calls during a program. They spend hours in training also.

Do mistakes happen, of course, the panel is human. Skating is a subjective sport, any time you add the human element into the judging of a sport ( diving, gymnastics, equestrian, etc) you will have disagreements and controversy.
 
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Also remember that judges are volunteers. They do not get paid, this is not their profession. They do ( in the US) have to spend many hours and dollars on continuing education and training. Most in the US take their judging very seriously and try their best to do right by the skaters.

Technical panel members have a difficult job and try their best to make the correct calls during a program. They spend hours in training also.

Do mistakes happen, of course, the panel is human. Skating is a subjective sport, any time you add the human element into the judging of a sport ( diving, gymnastics, equestrian, etc) you will have disagreements and controversy.

We're just doing our job, we're volunteers, we have already sacrificed so much, blah, blah, blah. Oh, please do not give us this sort of lame excuse anymore...

I'd actually like to see judges that are paid and 'professional' instead of being volunteers. The bad apples and many unqualified ones should then be kicked out. The public will start to ask for accountability of these judges and speedy!
Any judge who's caught cheating should be sent to jail. Many unfairf judging results have ruined some skaters' entire careers.

BTW, if some judges feel they're unfairly targeted, they can simply quit since they're 'volunteers' in your opinion. Nobody asks them to stay.
 
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Did you watch the slo-mo replay? Let me just say this, many, if not most downgraded triples were not as severely underrotated as this one. I certainly don't believe Nakano's two downgraded triples were as bad as Yu Na's.

You can agree or disagree with the rules for double penalty on downgraded jumps, but to suggest that an all-European technical panel at Worlds would favor a Korean over a Japanese is quite nonsense. I'm a fan of Yukari but I recognize that her triples are never fully rotated even when she gets credit for them. The 3A at 2008 Worlds was definitely under-rotated by more than a quarter (what puzzles me is that she's been ratified with the same 3As throughout the entire season) and the 3F was right on the borderline so it might have been overlooked had the caller been more lenient (even if it had been, the final results would not have changed). The slow-motion on Yu-Na's 3Lz shows that it was about 0.2 revolutions short, and that is why it should not and was not downgraded. One thing I can tell you that Mao was lucky (luckier than Yukari anyway) to have had her 2A-2Lo-2Lo combo not downgraded. Thank god, otherwise Kostner would have ended up winning the championship.
 
We can agree to disagree on whether it is too harsh to get the lower base mark and the GOE reduction. Most coaches I know ( especially of developing skaters) like the feedback ( they already know about the cheats;-) and it helps them help their skaters ( and their parents).
This sounds like your true rationale for supporting the double penalty, because downgraded jumps are "cheated" jumps. What you're denying, IMO, is how subjective the downgrade call currently is vs. how it greatly it affects the scores/placement of skaters. They're supposed be the "technical panel", not the "presentation panel".


A judge does not downgrade a jump. The technical panel downgrades a jump. They can look at the jump in slow motion to determine the starting and landing point of a jump and count the rotations.
Have you tried to do this with one look at the slow-mo? It takes me several passes and I'd be happy if I was within 15 degrees correct. Even assuming the technical panel has more camera angles, better resolution, and more frames per second, they still completely lack a standard definition as to the pre-rotation and under-rotation points.


The technical document just hints at it:
For example, a triple Lutz that rotates 2.5 turns by the foot placement and 2.75 turns of the upper body will be called as a triple attempt then downgraded ...
Ah, so you see that the upper body, not just the foot placement, should be considered. Once we get around to defining it, you'll see that this is just the tip of the iceberg as to how subjective the downgrade call can be.


In my quote in your post, you will see that I said that they should get penalized for the mistakes in the jump phases AS WELL as the obvious UR.

... meaning the judges take off their GOE's for the jump phase issue and the tech panel downgrades the jump.
Logically, it's one mistake (not enough rotations in the air) that you're parsing to try to justify multiple penalties which when summed up are clearly excessive.
 
A triple is 3 air turns. Of course, one can fall, but it could be after the three air turns.

Wrong Edge Takeoffs also cut short the number of air turns intended especially those where the takeoff is a half turn on the ice before the jump.

Joe
 
Penalty for two-foot landings and hand-downs could be harshened by giving out higher GOE to clean jumps (I don't understand why judges are reluctant to reward +3s for textbook jumps like Yu-Na Kim's) but that is another story.

I also feel that spectacular jumps and other elements are rarely rewarded with +3 GOE. Sometimes I am wondering, what on earth the skater should do to get +3 for a jump. Sometimes it seems that perfect technique, great speed, hight and superclean landing is not enough. Especially if you are not a skater from the 'top', you can almost forget it. This should be changed
 
A triple is 3 air turns. Of course, one can fall, but it could be after the three air turns.
If only it was that easy. ;) In practice, the only triple with three air turns is the 3A. As it currently stands, a triple has at least three turns, not all of which must be in the air. That standard has probably been that way ever since the first triple was ratified. You'd know better than I. Otherwise, we could call the rest of the triples as doubles, the doubles as singles, and singles as hops.


Wrong Edge Takeoffs also cut short the number of air turns intended especially those where the takeoff is a half turn on the ice before the jump.
True with respect to the flutz.

The WET call is much less subjective and the penalty is less severe than the downgrade call. Each skating blade has two edges. One is defined as the inside edge and the other as the outside edge. It's not that difficult to see which edge the skater is on.

The pre-rotation takeoff rule isn't overly strict and I don't have an issue with it at the moment. It's the more than 1/4 turn short on the landing downgrade call which is problematic. The call is too subjective, the standard too high, and the penalty too severe. Even if every call was perfect, IMO the standard needs to be reduced or the penalty be made less severe. Otherwise, the scores won't accurately represent the skaters' performances. And while the rule encourages better rotation, it leads to messier programs by indirectly encouraging falls, two-footing, turnouts, etc.
 
And while the rule encourages better rotation, it leads to messier programs by indirectly encouraging falls, two-footing, turnouts, etc.

This is the only part of your post I have to disagree with. I don't think that the double penalty for underrotation indirectly encourages falls, two-footing, turnouts, etc.

It's not as though skaters can choose "Oh, I better not underrotate my jump because of the harsh penalty, so I will fall, two-foot, or turn out instead."

In many cases they do those things *because* the jump was underrotated. Which is why I think there needs to be a better way to punish a jump that is two-footed because of underrotation more harshly than one that's just underrotated; as it stands now the only difference is likely to be -2 vs. -3, or -1 vs. -2 in combos.
At least with jumps that result in falls because of underrotation there is also the fall deduction in addition to the downgrade and -3 GOE.

I haven't done a statistical analysis, but I would suspect that the percentage of jumps with falls that are downgraded is a lot higher than the percentage of jumps without falls that are downgraded. Incomplete rotation is a very common reason for falling.

I would also expect that the percentage of two-footed jumps that are downgraded is higher than the percentage of jumps landed on one foot that are downgraded. Underrotation is also a common reason for landing on two feet.

What I think the double penalty does encourage is for skaters to play it safe in terms of their jump content. There's not much incentive to attempt a triple axel or quad if it's going to be downgraded and you would get more points for just doing a good double axel or triple. Same for triple-triple combinations in which the second jump is likely to be downgraded.

Under the old system, although cheated jumps were not given full credit, there was some reward, or at least skaters believed that there was, for attempting the more difficult jumps. A cheated triple was supposed to be considered worth less than a good double, but there was still a sense that it was worth more than a bad double. Now it's officially worth the same as a bad double.

So you got a lot of skaters attempting jumps that they couldn't really rotate yet in order to establish themselves in the judges' minds as skaters who were attempting the top jump content.

Under the current system, they would be giving away points by attempting jumps that they haven't mastered yet, so in many cases they make the choice instead to stick to the easier jumps that they have already mastered and that they can enhance for higher GOEs. This is especially true at the lower levels, but we see it at elite levels as well.

There are still some reasons why skaters would include jumps in their programs that they haven't mastered yet. If they can rotate the jump at least sometimes in practice, then putting it in the program helps them get experience doing the jump in competition, which can help them psychologically to become more consistent with it as they master the technique. And there may be at least a slim chance that they will actually rotate it enough to get full credit . . . with more experience, that chance may become larger.

That motivation becomes a tradeoff -- is it better to do an easier jump that can earn +GOE and get more points at this competition, or is it better to do the harder jump that will sacrifice points today but store up competition experience with the jump that may pay off next year?

Also, at the elite levels, because of the set number of jump passes and jump repetitions allowed, attempting a quad or triple axel that is likely to be downgraded can still provide more points than whatever double jump could have filled that slot after all the triples the skater has mastered have been used up.
 
If we accept the pre and under rotations, then we are not being mathematically correct. The validity of these jumps I do not question. I think they should have their own category of jumps, and separate base values. But I am realistic to know this will never happen.

Goof point MM. The Flutz is a perfect take off for a perfect Flip.

Joe
 
Although...I think that the main difference between a flutz and a true flip is that the flutz has very little pre-roatation and the true flip has a lot.

Actually, a true flip doesn't have much pre-rotation either and that is why it's considered the 2nd hardest jump. It ain't called a "flip" for no reason. (Even on singles I can feel it when I do it properly ;)) But I have noticed we are seeing lots of ladies recently with with wonky technic which seems to help them achieve more pre-rotation on their flips. It doesn't surprise me most of them are flutzers as well.
 
This is the only part of your post I have to disagree with. I don't think that the double penalty for underrotation indirectly encourages falls, two-footing, turnouts, etc.
Thanks for the reply. It warrants a long response and I'll do so if I'm able.

Just wanted to add that prior to this past season, the standard for downgrading was in effect lower due to the more lax enforcement. Sometimes jumps 3/8 or 1/2 under-rotated weren't downgraded. The lower standard was balanced by the harsh penalties. With the stricter enforcement, the balance was upset.
 
It's a good topic but I'm puzzled about a couple of things.

1. Is the distance of the underrotation measured by the Tech Panel eyes or based soley on the slomo from one camera?

2. If an attempt was made to complete the jump, could it not be considered a 'faulty' jump and the deductions made in the GoE scores?

Joe
 
It's a good topic but I'm puzzled about a couple of things.

1. Is the distance of the underrotation measured by the Tech Panel eyes or based soley on the slomo from one camera?

2. If an attempt was made to complete the jump, could it not be considered a 'faulty' jump and the deductions made in the GoE scores?
I am pretty sure the tech panel does have access to slow motion replays. Also, I think they have there own video cameras, not the network television camera.

About question 2, yes, an underrotated triple jump is considered a faulty jump and deductions (mandatory) are taken in the GOE.

Besides that, the jump is given only the base value of a double jump.

That's what the argument is about. Does this amount to penalizing the same mistake twice, once in the base value, then again in the GOE?
 
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Quote - That's what the argument is about. Does this amount to penalizing the same mistake twice, once in the base value, then again in the GOE?[/QUOTE].

I think it does and it shouldn't be downgraded. It's no worse than a Flutz, which is also a faulty jump.

(Not sure what 3 people are looking at in the slomo replays. We can't see them.)

Joe
 
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