Repeating Programs

[blue dog]

I know this has probably been discussed before, but another thread brought the idea--what is so wrong about repeating programs?

At the risk of cross-posting, I will say that I don't have problems with skaters who revisit their old programs. Sometimes, it is better because the skater has matured. Dancers reprise old roles, and so do actors on the stage.

Of course, it can get old (Viktor Petrenko had the same LP for three years!)

What do you think?

 

[Buttercup]

Personally, I'm not crazy about it (as I wrote on the other thread). The way I see it, elite skaters should be evolving - and part of that is doing new programs. There are two situations that I can think of in which it's for the best, though:
1. If a skater/pair had a shortened season due to medical issues, and is bringing back a program that's barely been skated (e.g. Dube/Davison 2007 & 2008 LP seems to be such a case).
2. If a skater/pair starts out the season with one program, realizes it's not working, and goes back to an older program (from what I gather, Weir, Buttle and Joubert have all done this in the past - and others too, I would imagine).

Now, if a skater keeps the music but changes the elements and the choreography, that's fine as far as I'm concerned (unless I hate the music! )

 

[cassieandcheetah]

Personally, I'm not crazy about it (as I wrote on the other thread). The way I see it, elite skaters should be evolving - and part of that is doing new programs. There are two situations that I can think of in which it's for the best, though:
1. If a skater/pair had a shortened season due to medical issues, and is bringing back a program that's barely been skated (e.g. Dube/Davison 2007 & 2008 LP seems to be such a case).
2. If a skater/pair starts out the season with one program, realizes it's not working, and goes back to an older program (from what I gather, Weir, Buttle and Joubert have all done this in the past - and others too, I would imagine).

Now, if a skater keeps the music but changes the elements and the choreography, that's fine as far as I'm concerned (unless I hate the music! )

I think it's more advantages to do that than most people think. I think the muscle memory learned from a previous program can be a tremendous help. Sale and Pelletier vs. Berezhnaya and Sikarulidze, for instance....

 

[Bennett]

If I were a coach, I would like my students to learn newer things through trying something different every year because the skating career is extremely short.

But as an audience, I don't have any specific opinion about what they should or should not about this issue. I'd like see whatever that is beautiful.

I was glad that Jeff kept his previous programs this year. I fell so much in love with Ararat LP when I first saw it at Canadian Nationals (I mean through YOUTUBE; I wish I lived in Canada). I felt as if I were watching a good film. It felt so long because of the richness, depth, and the variety of emotions involved in it. I am so happy that I could see the clean version of it here at Worlds. I also absolutely loved his Adios Nonino SP. Even though Jeff has been pretty consistent in that program, I never got tired of it. I also watched Mao perform her Nocturne a number of times. But I never got bored.

Perhaps the freshness of the first impression fades away. But masterpiece programs are always enjoyable to watch. That's what it takes to be the arts.

 

[Tinymavy15]

I really do not mind it at all, unless the program was bad to begin with. I feel like sometimes to takes two seasons to really skate some programs to thier full potential.

 

[Piel]

I would have loved to see how a more mature Michelle Kwan would have interpreted her "Salome" program.

 

[Mathman]

^ Was the real Salome an innocent child (like 15-year-old Michelle in 1996), caught up in a political power-play by scheming adults? Or (like Michelle?) did she know exactly what she was doing?

Maybe Sheherazade was Michelle's attempt at the more mature version of the role.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think repeating a program in a future competition, would be ok under CoP. The judges have the base values of the elements and that's enough. I don't believe the judges can infuse personal taste on performance. It should be just what the skater does in that particular competition.

In 6.0 it was frowned upon.

Those fans looking for what is presumed artistry should wait for the Exhibitions.

Joe

 

[jyshin]

I don't mind watching the same program for the second time... but for the third time? I don't know... Has there been such cases yet?

Those fans looking for what is presumed artistry should wait for the Exhibitions.

Unfortunately, I would have to agree with you Joe. That is why some of the skaters think Mao and Jeffrey are so special...

 

[blue dog]

I don't mind watching the same program for the second time... but for the third time? I don't know... Has there been such cases yet?.

Yes. I should've posted it here, but Viktor Petrenko had the same LP from 1990-1992. He finally won the Olympics with it in 1992, but by then people had begun to criticise him.

That was commonplace with his coach, Zmievskaya. In 1993 and 1994 she had her other gold medal-winning student, Oksana Grischuk, use the same LP to win worlds in 1993 and then the Olympics in 1994.

 

[Bennett]

I feel that three years might have been a little bit long especially when it's LP. For casual fans who don't watch every competition, it may be okay. Were there as many competitions as there are now at that time? Now we watch the same program performed 3 to 6 times. Then if it's multiplied by 3, people would start complaining. Perhaps costume changes and modifications in music, choreo, and program contents would be nice. Shizuka have done different versions of Turandot as ama and pro. Each looked nice.

 

[Ginask8s]

I always look forward to seeing new programs. I dont mind a repeat of a really good short, but I like to see and hear new music for the long. I think it would be really boring to have to train the same thing over again unless you need to work on getting a jump, or refining technique on jumps which takes a lot of time.

 

[jyshin]

Yes. I should've posted it here, but Viktor Petrenko had the same LP from 1990-1992. He finally won the Olympics with it in 1992, but by then people had begun to criticise him.

That was commonplace with his coach, Zmievskaya. In 1993 and 1994 she had her other gold medal-winning student, Oksana Grischuk, use the same LP to win worlds in 1993 and then the Olympics in 1994.

This is exactly what I am afraid of seeing in 2010.:scratch:

 

[fiercemao]

A program with great potential but not skated clean should be repeated. That's why I was enthusiastic about Lambiel's Flamenco. Too bad, he blew it again.

Junior /lower level skaters should be forced to repeat a program they could not skate clean even once in the prior season. I hate to see many Junior/lower level skaters change their programs every year without putting much effort into doing a 'CLEAN' one. Bebe Liang is a good example in that regard.

If the program was skated very well in prior year, it should not be repeated. Buttle's recycling of his short program is a disappointment. A program that didn't receive good review the past season should not be repeated.

 

[cassieandcheetah]

But I think there are also financial issues involved too. IFor instance, I heard when she was a junior Yu-Na kim couldn't afford 2 new programs every year so she used to change her sp only every 2 years.

 

[jyshin]

A program with great potential but not skated clean should be repeated. That's why I was enthusiastic about Lambiel's Flamenco. Too bad, he blew it again.

Urrrr... wasn't aware of that! I guess I want(ed) him to repeat this program for the third time...

p.s.
... in 2010

 

[blue dog]

Here are examples of repeats:

Viktor Petrenko:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3luwx6ANmss
http://youtube.com/watch?v=IpW6gdwd4YM
I couldn't find the '92 gold medal winning one.

Katarina Witt (she really only had three LP's during her heyday; these two she repeated):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_aQHkwlkNZE
http://youtube.com/watch?v=zObrtJ3CIGQ
***
http://youtube.com/watch?v=6N-gkuIWgis
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lXJmd9R5rs4

Denise Biellmann:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=zJ1NGxtF4BQ
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ucCMZffihRA

Oksana Baiul (I guess she did change it up, since in 1993 it had no combos, and in 1994, it had a double/double):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=SKv3NJhtm3I
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3uZycSYnufI

Drobiazko/Vanagas:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=p3da9UgDqBc
http://youtube.com/watch?v=J2ltGQNI3tM

And some others, which I could not find repeats of:

Kazakova/Dmitriev (repeated both SP and LP in 1997 and 1998)
Shishkova/Naumov
Woetzel/Steuer
Meno/Sand

 

[BigJohn]

Blue dog, I have no problem whatsoever with anyone repeating their program. And I also believe that a skater and their coaches probably have a lot more enlighted input in that matter than any one of us in this forum. We all know it's been done before by many skaters, from every countries.

Most of the time, what is being repeated is a little gem, something that can lead to a confident inspired performance. Pretty helpfull in a big event like the Olympics.

So to all of those who say they should not do it or it can only happen if blablabla... well I'd like to say: show a little respect to these athletes and coaches. They made it to world without our valuable input, and I doubt any one of us can brag about being in the world top 30 of anything.

 

[iluvtodd]

Well, Todd decided to go back to his "First Knight" program at 1998 Worlds and the 1998 Goodwill Games. This was the program that he skated to when he won the 1996 Worlds. His 1997/1998 free skate (up to the Olympics) was "Gettysburg." My guess is that if he had felt better about his Olympic finish in 1998 (just missing the podium and therefore not medaling ), he would have still skated to "Gettysburg" at 1998 Worlds. He went on to skate "First Knight" quite successfully at 1998 Worlds (he won the free skate,after being 4th after the SP), and brilliantly at the Goodwill Games (in a different costume).

 

[gkelly]

That was commonplace with his coach, Zmievskaya. In 1993 and 1994 she had her other gold medal-winning student, Oksana Grischuk, use the same LP to win worlds in 1993 and then the Olympics in 1994.

You mean Oksana Baiul. Grishuk was an ice dancer.


It was very common in the 80s and earlier for skaters to keep programs for at least 2 years, or to keep some of the same cuts of music and to change some of the other ones, since it was also common for programs to be made up of three, four, five, or more unrelated pieces.

Paul Wylie also had pretty much the same long program from 1989-1991 seasons.


I myself have been using the same program music for 10 years now, but I've only ever competed with it 3 or 4 times so far and the choreography has changed at least that many times.