The Quad question

[Bennett]

One example, compare Daisuke Takahashi's this season 4CC FS (which I believe that he had maximized everything.) with Jeffrey Buttle's this year's World FS (which I also believed that he had maximized everything.), who do you think would win?

Yeah, Daisuke was REALLY good at 4CC. That was one of the few events that Daisuke said something very positive about his performance. Daisuke had two quads. He also showed his maximum potential in every aspect although I do think that men's scores at 4cc were generally very inflated (264.41 for him that broke the world record!).

On the other hand, he did well in all the other competitions but still didn't reach Jeff's score (SA 228.97, NHK Trophy 234.22, Grand Prix of Figure Skating Final 238.94) except for Japanese Nationals where again scores are very inflated. And I am rather skeptical that he would become consistent in a two-quad program. He may be better off sticking to a one-quad plan. Daisuke has so much to sell other than quads and I don't think it very wise to be stressed out too much about it as he was here at Worlds.

 

[chuckm]

Jeff achieved his winning TES with 3 combinations, a 3/3, two 3A, two 3Zs and a 3F, all L4 spins and two L3 footwork sequences, for a base value of 74.39. Skated cleanly, with GOE he got 84.29 total TES.

He could further maximize his TES by having two 3/3s (the second with a 3L), substituting a 2nd 3F instead of the 3S, and doing L4 footwork. That would add 5.3 extra base points---but could he skate such an ambitious program cleanly?

If Joubert did a two-quad program with all the combos, Jeff would have to up the ante AND skate cleanly to come out on top. If Joubert did a 3-quad program (with 4S) and landed most of his jumps cleanly, nothing Jeff could do would be able to top it.

 

[GoldMedalist]

I don't think Jeff is going to get any better in terms of the jumps.

He could go for Level 4 footwork, though.

 

[Mathman]

He could further maximize his TES by having two 3/3s (the second with a 3L), substituting a 2nd 3F instead of the 3S, and doing L4 footwork. That would add 5.3 extra base points...

It's hard to see how Jeff could increase the base value of his jumps, wihout a quad. He can't do a second 3F instead of a 3S because he has already done 2 triple Axels and 2 triple Lutzes.

He can't add a second triple-triple ending with either a triple loop or a triple toe, for the same reason. (Well, I guess he could substitute 3Lz/3Lo for his 3Lz/2T and then change the solo 3Lo to another 2A.)

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Joe, please! This thread from the very beginning was based on the assumption that a skater skates like how Buttle skated at this World, which means that assum that a skater has maximized everything, including artistry, then the quad would give the edge. At least, that is what I meant and how I comprehended. Quad it alone, like two 3axels alone, can not win anything. Can you win anything with 8 triples, 3 combos, just jumps with no quad but without the quality of the spins and footworks and everything else?

One example, compare Daisuke Takahashi's this season 4CC FS (which I believe that he had maximized everything.) with Jeffrey Buttle's this year's World FS (which I also believed that he had maximized everything.), who do you think would win?

Sorry Jenny - I didn't realize we were discussing assumptions. Yes two skaters who maximize their content of program and one with the quad should get the edge. Much If two skaters with maximum contents and both with quads, we will probably go with the roard of the crowd

At the Worlds I was expecting 4 skaters to execute a quad each and easily. They didn't. Daisuke, Verner, and Lambiel are quite capable of that. Had they done that, I would think it would go to either Daisuke or Lambiel for the gold.

Again this is only an assumption. The judges and the roar of the crowd quite frankly confuse me.

btw, Voronov and Abbott did execute quads. Should they have been in the last group or were their quads different from what was expected from the 4 in the last group?

I really think we should get off the quad bandwagon and look for good performances of the skaters. The edge could go to the quadman if and only if he is the only one to do it.

Joe

 

[Bennett]

It's hard to see how Jeff could increase the base value of his jumps, wihout a quad. He can't do a second 3F instead of a 3S because he has already done 2 triple Axels and 2 triple Lutzes.

He can't add a second triple-triple ending with either a triple loop or a triple toe, for the same reason. (Well, I guess he could substitute 3Lz/3Lo for his 3Lz/2T and then change the solo 3Lo to another 2A.)

Perhaps that's why he is practicing a quad. But I think that he won't be obsessed with it to the extent that he would self-destruct his program.

He can also aim at getting level 4 steps with plus GOEs. He could do it!

I also think that he would get more PCSs next seasons to come. He deserves so much more respect in that area by the judges.

 

[moviechick]

The problem with the quad right now is that no one seems to able to land it consistently AND do everything else well. Plushenko was like the only guy who could, but he's been gone since 2006 and who knows if he's ever coming back. Lambiel does the quad OK, but has weird issues with his triple axel. Joubert has the quad, but often has other problems and is still a little robotic. I thought Takahasi would pull it off, but that didn't pan out. With this kind of field, the big competitions are all up in the air and it all depends on who can hold it together.

Interesting shift in the sport. I'm personally for the quad but I don't think it should be everything. I'll take the good all-around skater over the quad robot any day. It'd be even nicer to have both. But it's been a major part of the men's competition since like 1997 and I wouldn't want the sport to go back to the 80s. The quad "peak" probably passed in the early 2000s though. Who knows, maybe some new teenage quad-jumpers (like Plushenko and Yagudin in the 90s) will emerge and bring it back to full force.

 

[dorispulaski]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVecIlHmSG0

Kurt Browning landed the first quad at the 1988 World Championships, so it goes a lot further back than 1997.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elvis_Stojko

Elvis Stojko made the quad a requirement in 1991 when he was the first person to land a 4t2t in competition.

At 1997 Worlds, he was the first person to land 4t3t.

 

[Mathman]

Was Ilia Kulik the first man to land a quad at the Olympics?

 

[Buttercup]

Was Ilia Kulik the first man to land a quad at the Olympics?

Wikipedia says Petr Barna in Albertville 1992 was the first, and I am fairly certain some of the men landed quads at Lillehammer in 1994.

 

[dorispulaski]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgTO7tJIMGY

Barna certainly did one, but it was borderline 2 footed. I don't know whether it was ratified.

 

[Buttercup]

Barna certainly did one, but it was borderline 2 footed. I don't know whether it was ratified.

Apparently it was: http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1003429/3/index.htm
This gave me an opportunity to read about Paul Wylie's silver medal performance in 1992, which in itself was worth the search!

 

[antmanb]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVecIlHmSG0

Kurt Browning landed the first quad at the 1988 World Championships, so it goes a lot further back than 1997.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elvis_Stojko

Elvis Stojko made the quad a requirement in 1991 when he was the first person to land a 4t2t in competition.

At 1997 Worlds, he was the first person to land 4t3t.

I suspect that the poster referenced 1997 as until that point Elvis was probably the only man pulling off quad with some semblance of consistency. In 1997 Elvis, Alexei Urmanov and Ilia Kulik were all landing the quad fairly consistently in major competitions.

Ant

 

[moviechick]

I suspect that the poster referenced 1997 as until that point Elvis was probably the only man pulling off quad with some semblance of consistency. In 1997 Elvis, Alexei Urmanov and Ilia Kulik were all landing the quad fairly consistently in major competitions.

Ant

Yes, that is what I meant. I was thinking of the 97-98 season as when the quad "came of age".

Wasn't Urmanov sitting out 1997 with his groin injury? Or am I thinking of the following season..

 

[goldenpleasures]

Wasn't Urmanov sitting out 1997 with his groin injury? Or am I thinking of the following season..

Urmanov competed in the Worlds SP in 1997, and finished 1st with a fantastic skate. But he injured or reinjured his groin during the performance, and withdrew from the FS.

I don't remember him being consistent with the quad at that time. He had landed it in major competition several years before. I don't know whether he had been planning a quad for the 1997 FS.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Urmanov competed in the Worlds SP in 1997, and finished 1st with a fantastic skate. But he injured or reinjured his groin during the performance, and withdrew from the FS.

I don't remember him being consistent with the quad at that time. He had landed it in major competition several years before. I don't know whether he had been planning a quad for the 1997 FS.

I remember that Olys. It was the year of the COMEB ACKS It was also the year of the MENS' SPLATS. I do not think Urmanov did a quad or anyone else in that competition. I remember Urmanov for the lace shirt cuffs. He did skate clean if not special and deserved his win.

I was hoping for Kurt but it didn't work out for him (or any of the other comeback kids.)

Joe

 

[goldenpleasures]

I remember that Olys. It was the year of the COMEB ACKS It was also the year of the MENS' SPLATS. I do not think Urmanov did a quad or anyone else in that competition. I remember Urmanov for the lace shirt cuffs. He did skate clean if not special and deserved his win.

I was hoping for Kurt but it didn't work out for him (or any of the other comeback kids.)

Joe

Aren't you talking about 1994? I absolutely loved Urmanov's performance. But anyway, you're right, no one performed a quad at Olympics '94.

ETA: Possibly one of the Chinese skaters (Min Zhang?) successfully completed a quad, now I come to think of it.

 

[antmanb]

Yes, that is what I meant. I was thinking of the 97-98 season as when the quad "came of age".

Wasn't Urmanov sitting out 1997 with his groin injury? Or am I thinking of the following season..

I thought (though i might be mistaken) that it was the 96/97 season that Alexei really got on track and i think was hitting the quad in the LP every time. I think he landed it at the Champions Series Final and beat Elvis (who also landed a quad) to the gold medal setting himself up as favourite for the world title. He was in first after the SP and then had to withdraw from the competition hurting his groin.

Actually as i was writing that i seem to think that might have been the 95/96 season. Anyone confirm?

Ant

 

[goldenpleasures]

Actually as i was writing that i seem to think that might have been the 95/96 season. Anyone confirm?
Ant

Urmanov won the Champions Series Final (as it was then called) in the 1995-1996 season, but was only 5th at Worlds 1996.

The year when he finished 1st in the SP at Worlds and then withdrew before the FS was 1996-1997. He was also European champion that year, and finished 3rd in the CSF.

 

[gkelly]

no one performed a quad at Olympics '94.

ETA: Possibly one of the Chinese skaters (Min Zhang?) successfully completed a quad, now I come to think of it.

Right, Min Zhang landed one.


Re Urmanov and 1997...

He had landed several nice quads in competition ca. 1991 and 1992. He still tried it unsuccessfully a few times in 1993 and 1994 (e.g., at 94 Worlds he fell on a quad attempt along with a few other mistakes).

In 1997 Kulik was starting to attempt quads in competition and was sometimes coming close, so that upped the ante for the European men. I *think* (can't remember for sure) that Urmanov also had a failed attempt in the LP with which he won Europeans that year, but the rest of the program was pretty good.

At the 1997 Champions Series Final, Kulik landed his first clean quad in competition, Stojko landed his (or anyone's) first clean quad-triple combo, and Urmanov landed his first clean quad in 5 years. It was also the first time there were three clean quads in the same event -- half the skaters in that small field. The ISU press releases made a big deal out of it at the time. (And yet an argument could be made that Eldredge deserved to win that one despite his lack of quad.)