Opinion: The brevity of skating careers

[GS Forum Staff]

Please remember that everyone is entitled to their opinions. You don't have to agree with each other, but please be mature and civil in your responses.

Thanks!

 

[skatingfan4ever]

I decided I have more to say. **Long post alert.** Here's some food for thought.

How do you define longevity? What counts toward longevity?

• Number of years on the ice? (including learning to skate, progressing through lower levels, junior national competitions, junior international competitions, senior national competitions, senior international competitions, professional skating opportunities, going to the rink for fun)
• Number of years competing nationally?
• Number of years receiving and skating at international assignments?
• Number of years winning medals/titles internationally?
• Length of competitive career and/or pro career?

Depending on what metric(s) you have in mind, a skater's longevity can change. Here's some examples to think about. (NOTE: These are just examples I could think of and wanted to write about. I know many more could be cited).

Patrick Chan - Won medals, usually gold, at all Canadian lower levels, competed at JW 3 times, winning silver in 2007, competed on the Senior circuit for 10 seasons, won multiple GPs, GPFs, 4CCs, World Titles/World Medals, competed at 3 Olympic Games and finished Top 10 in each, and won 10 National Titles. He went to Worlds 8 times and his lowest finish was 9th. He had competitive longevity, no doubt. He also, however, was the undisputed top Canadian and only had a big injury once in his entire career. He has not chosen a long-term pro career but went into real estate instead.

Gracie Gold - amazing jumps when landed cleanly, 2-time Junior National Medalist (gold, silver), Junior Worlds silver medalist, 2-time Senior National Champion/4-time medalist, 4th at 2014 Olympics, 4 trips to Senior Worlds in a row (finished 6th, 5th, 4th, and 4th). She withdrew from 2018 Nationals and got help for her health issues, then returned to Nationals in 2020, though not at her full jump strength, and competed at 3 subsequent Nationals. Right now she is injured but hasn't said she's done skating (I think)? Does her fighting to return to the ice and her continuing to skate nationally mean she has increased longevity?

Tara Lipinski - short senior career of three seasons, but very successful, with a bronze, gold, and silver at Nationals, an incredible leap from 15th at 1996 Worlds to 1st in 1997, and an Olympic gold. She took the opportunity to turn professional, but even that was short-lived due to her hip problems. And yet, Tara skated for 13 years of her life and still skates for fun once in a while. 13 years is a long time.

Elena Liashenko - Her competitive results go from 1992 to 2006. She skated at 4 Olympics and 11 World Championships. I would be watching Worlds on TV and I'd think, "Oh, she's still skating? She's been around forever." But I remember her most as the poster lady for telegraphing jumps. Just because someone has longevity, it doesn't automatically make their skating more memorable.

Jason Brown - He has had ups and downs in his career, and post-2018, he decided to compete his way, not do the GP and not attempt quads. He is a solid Top 10 in the world, but his podium chances at Worlds are slim. Yet, definitely, he has longevity. And his skating is .

Deanna Stellato-Dudek - promising US singles skater, got injured, was away from skating for 16 years, came back as a pairs skater and has had 2 partners, National Medals/National Titles, has GP wins, and maybe a World Title shortly. She has longevity as far as age, but her break was a long one. Still, even looking only at her pairs results, I would say she has longevity.

Andrew Torgashev - gets a separate post because his quotes about the process of returning to skating are worth being highlighted in their own post.

 

[skatingfan4ever]

Andrew Torgashev started skating when he was five, and won US Junior Nationals at age 13. The summer after Andrew won Junior Nationals in 2015, he broke his ankle while training a 4T, which required surgery to stabilize the tibia with three screws that were removed six months later. He missed the entire 2015/2016 season. "My mentality always was to just grind as much as I could until I realized that if you grind something too much, it turns into dust."

He qualified for the 2018 JGPF by placing 1st and 4th at his JGPs but withdrew before the JGPF with an injury. He finished 5th at 2020 Senior Nationals and 8th at 2020 Junior Worlds. Then, for the next two seasons, he had a hard-to-diagnose foot injury which, IIRC, he tried to come back from too soon and reinjured it. He couldn't compete at all in 2020/2021 or 2021/2022 and he was limited to using an exercise bike, not skating at all.

He thought about not competing anymore, but "I just wasn’t ready to let this go yet. I still have love for the sport, and I felt like I hadn’t maxed out my potential. For all the people that helped me along the way, especially my parents, I couldn’t just let it go without giving it my best shot.”

Fortunately he finally got the correct diagnosis and was given a rehab program that helped his foot heal.

Then he began the long journey back to competitive ice. He started from zero and built his skating back up to get to Sectionals (the final qualifying competition to make it to US Nationals). He said, "It's not magic. A lot of grinding, lots of work, day in, day out, when nobody's at the rink you have to be here and when everyone's at the rink you have to be here, and live life on the ice."

Going to Sectionals as a Senior skater gave him new perspective and showed him a different side of competitive skating. Before, he took for granted that he was achieving skating milestones and thought it would just happen. Until it wasn't happening. In training to get back to competition, starting from zero, he worked on being better 1% each day. He mentioned that the spins had to be better, steps had to better, landing positions had to be better, his fingers had to be finished, he needed to have nice lines in his shoulder. "It's all of these small details that we take for granted because we might've worked on them so much when we were younger that it's just natural. But when that goes away (and it goes away quick) it's very hard to get back." Then, almost as an afterthought, he added, "And of course technical things as well."

Andrew was a promising Junior skater who is just now getting his Senior career rolling because he's had so many injuries. He had the good fortunate to make Worlds last year, win a medal at Lombardia this year, and place a respectable 7th at Skate America this year. He has a good chance to make at least 4CC this year (I hope! ), unless something crazy happens.

I share this as an example of a skater who's been involved in skating for 17 years, although injuries took away a lot of his ice time (and he's still only 22 years old). So, where does he belong on the longevity scale? It depends on how you choose to measure longevity. The lessons he learned through his injuries may give him the perspective to train smarter and listen to his body, which may in turn lead to a longer career (or not, since no one has a crystal ball, not even the skaters themselves).

Sources:

Ahead of world championships debut, Andrew Torgashev is building instead of grinding

U.S. figure skater Andrew Torgashev discusses his journey through various injuries and coaches to reach the 2023 World Figure Skating Championships.

www.nbcsports.com

The Iron Butterfly: The Comeback Kid ft. Andrew Torgashev

bleav.com

 

[Mathman]

Elena Liashenko - Her competitive results go from 1992 to 2006. She skated at 4 Olympics and 11 World Championships. I would be watching Worlds on TV and I'd think, "Oh, she's still skating? She's been around forever." But I remember her most as the poster lady for telegraphing jumps. Just because someone has longevity, it doesn't automatically make their skating more memorable.

Oh. no. she was the poster lady for having a true Lutz (rare in that era). That was before the shortened Lutz approach came into vogue, so naturally it was a long (and glorious!) entry.

Plus, she has a son named Platon (Plato). Anyone who names their children after Greek philosophers is OK by me.

 

[Mathman]

Yuna, as I understand it, grew to hate skating by the time she retired (she may be over it now).

Alysa said she would "never skate again.

I believe that Yuna Kim dealt with considerable unhappiness throughout her skating career. She was homesick and shy training in Canada. Later she continued because she felt that it was her patriotic duty to do so.

I got the impression that Alysa was pushed into the sport by her father, and was never really all that invested in her own right.

 

[rabidline]

Yuna, as I understand it, grew to hate skating by the time she retired (she may be over it now).

Yuna may be over skating, but she is using her achievements and stature to support the younger Korean skaters and Korean sports in general. Her agency ATS manage several Korean skaters (I don't have 100% positive feelings about how they have done that management, but they support some of the Korean skaters currently active). Most of her sponsors now also financially sponsors the active Korean skaters. Sure, the media in Korea continues to look for their "new Yuna" but at the same time they report on figure skating as a sport quite well (not a lot of sensationalism, decent coverage in public broadcasts) and don't hide important information about their skaters and the sport behind multiple paywalls and paid channels that's nonsense to navigate (*cough* Japanese media *cough*). She has also always tried to include Korean skaters (recently the younger ones) in her ice shows- a good opportunity for them to perform since Korea doesn't have that many ice shows. And also I will always remember Yuna speaking up for all the skaters during Beijing 2022. "All players' efforts and dreams are equally precious." She's also the ambassador of the Winter Youth Olympics that is to be held in Gangwon.

I think Yuna's role for Korean figure skating and sports is interesting because while her experience as a competitive skater and national superstar has its ups and downs, she seems to be trying to leverage her fame and achievements to help build the sport in her country in a more sustainable way, even though Korea still has a long way to go. But I also think it has developed significantly from her time to now.

I think figure skating won't hurt if it becomes more sustainable and accessible. The thing is that I don't see anyone giving the money to invest in the sports infrastructure and support system needed to do that unless it's a whole country with interests in how the sport is run for their own profit (see: Russia). And investing in only the few big superstars will not do anything to the sport as a whole in the long run, but as we all are seeing it in real time, it does bring them unwanted scrutiny and suffering.

 

[lariko]

Try watching a small competition on video, especially one with limited to no commentary, with a friend or family member who knows nothing about figure skating. Don't share your own knowledge that you have gained by reading rules and reading Golden Skate. Just watch.

See if they even agree with your idea of who should have won.

Also, remember that in live competition there is no scoring box for the fans. Live fans won't know the levels during the program, but they will have a better sense of speed etc. especially if sitting up front.

I happen to have this experience all the time. In fact, I have to look up detailed protocols every time my mom's fav skater did less than hoped for or someone she doesn’t like does great, because that phone call is incoming and I would have to explain why (and held responsible for it too). Overall though, Mom, despite barely able to remeber names, has no problems picking who she thought should win on the stadium or on TV. About the biggest disagreement we had was Cha (I like him, she doesn't). Overall, no problems. We usually are in sync.

While there is no live scoring box, most people on stadium have their phones and look at Jackie's Twitter, lol.

In terms of speed specifically, Mom was incensed, literally incensed when we were watching JWC and Broussard's short got the scores it got, because he looked really slow live. We checked on TV, and it looked better. But the judges didn't judge as per what was obvious live.

people on the stadiums, they react with most enthusiasm to jumps, spins and lifts, as well as clappable music. But those who attend live are hardly figure-skating virgins.

A couple-three times people who don't follow figureskating looked up the performances because we were talking about specific songs, and they reacted to falls, were excited that the skater with the song won (regardless of how small the competition was, lol) and in the latest case, my coworker was super-sad that the dance couple who skated to the song she liked broke up. Basically, it had nothing to do with actual skating. A person needs to want to sit through a competition to form an idea of where results should be in their mind. They are long, even the GPs.

Overall, in our day and age, it's hard to avoid information.

It comes with a lot of noise, but it’s normal for any human being not to like being gaslighted, so when judging veers off too much toward things that are way too finiky versus the on the nose ones, it's hard to watch. It seemed to have been the reason behind eliminating the figures that made scores hard to reconcile for the TV audiences.

I think that prestige scoring is a move toward surrender to the pessimistic expectation that the sport is small and getting smaller and would never be of interest to many, so they might as well please the few.

But, the more unfair and more ridiculous it becomes, the less I am interested. Mom and I just chatted about it today, that if things won't improve within a year or two, we'll likely be moving on. We just don't like it how things are now. I am getting worn out by current ruleset, judging and reduced competition.

 

[Mathman]

As for the original topic, if we think that the revolving door of fourteen-year-old girls is harmful to the popularity of the sport, or harmful to the athletes, I believe that the only way to address the problem is to change the rules about what skills are most rewarded by the judging system. In the days when school figures dominated the sport, the problem was less an issue because little girls get better and better at figures as they get older, peaking maybe at 19 instead of 15. Trixie Schuba, perhaps the greatest FIGURE skater of all time, was 20 when she won the Olympics over two vastly superior free skaters, Karen Magnussen and Janet Lynn.

Obviously no one wants the judges to cheat and give artificially manipulated scores to older or to younger skaters, or to favor established stars over up-and-comers, or vive versa. I think this has become a straw man on this thread -- people rail against fans who condone cheating judges, but in real life there is no one rooting for dishomest judging, so who are we arguing against? But I don't think it can be denied that the current scoring rules emphasize and reward skills that very young ladies naturally excel at, especially rotational jumps and flexibility moves.

If we think that such an undertaking is worth exploring, what skating skills do we think could be elevated in importance to achieve a better balance? (The elusive “artistry” leaps most quickly to mind, but what exactly should that entail in terms of actual skating, as opposed to merely entertaining the audience and choosing compelling music?)

 

[4everchan]

Bring back figures . Or at least, reward what training figures gives to a skater. Canada kept training figures longer than some other nations. While young girls all over the world were developing 3-3 combos, Canadian girls were still training on how to skate well. Fans would praise them for skating skills but they didn't have the arsenal to be competitive for many years. Nowadays, young Canadian girls are into jumps just like everyone else. I am amazed at how many Canadian juniors master harder combos and jumps. Getting these jumps early is key. However, maybe there is a need for a balancing act. Chan's skating skills and powerful and smooth stroking is legendary. Guess what? He did keep training figures while many had given up on them. Maybe there could be a way to have it all. For instance, JGP skaters could have to perform figures one way or another to compete. It could be a figures ranking/qualification competition/test prior to the actual season for which some competence has to be reached and from which seeding could be established.. It could be a figures competition before the SP to establish the skating order for the SP. I don't believe a skater should be discarded completely if they are not good in figures, but it should be encouraged in some ways. Skating senior happens later now with the new age rules. Taking advantage of these new parameters by making some room for a variety of skills during junior years could have a positive impact on the sport and its longevity. Better technique, better skating skills, healthier skating ?

 

[TT_Fin]

New judging system - if we can call it new anymore -was a good idea when it came into effect, but IMO it has turned against itself. Skaters are trying to get levels to get better scores. What it does to give to us ordinary audience who have very limited knowledge of skating. Sometimes we see just weird and even ugly entries to elements. Beauty of the sport is gone. Most of us can separate double from triple easier than a triple from quad. Still I can clearly regonize only loop and axel. I know I could learn to regonize more jumps, but why I should to? I have more important things to study. Reason I tell this is that difficulty is not the thing to attract audience to place. Beauty of the sport is. If no audience, no money. In every sport the most money comes from audience. There are sponsors, but amount of sponsors is quite much connected to how audience find the sport. Money and time is reason why many skaters internationally even never heard of turn to another sport or quit competitive sport or choose compelety different kind of hobbies. And it is their own choice and they have right to choose it. I have heard comments which I feel to be mean that real fans know this kind of thing. My answer is simple: Then real fans can pay more if they don't wont us, old ladies who can afford to go to competitions, to be there.

I don't know how it is in other countries, but I have read some interviews from local national team skaters. 90 % of them have had another sport beside skating and then made the choice when they turn to novices and start compete more. Very few have said that their hadn't done anything else but skating.

It is always skaters own choice. If they do want to continue until they turn to 40s, even they cannot compete about medals in big competitions, they have right to do it. If they want to quit at the age of seventeen, was the reason lack of money, sponsors, motivation, injury or whatever, they have right to do it. And not just skating, mass of teens quit active sports career when they concentrate to studies or other things in life. One example what skating and active sport overall does: Problems in getting pregnant. We have read hear Tara Lipinski has a baby after difficulties. Laura Lepistö has openly told the same. She is now expecting her second baby boy to be born in December, but she had had difficulties to get pregnant before the first one and she has said it has been the result of the rigorous training of a sports career. Female atheletes have also age limit, the risk of pregnancy problems to both mother and child is higher when mother is "old". There won't be problems automatically, but danger of risks is higher. I was 27 when I gave birth to my eldest son and had problems when time to give birth came, because I was very thin on that time. I have never been active athelete, but I was just tiny and thin. I am still short but no thin any more. I tell this, because athletes are usually thin.

 

[gkelly]

If you want to reward basic skating, and quality of execution over difficulty (and performance quality), the least disruptive solution would be to rejigger the scale of values so that improving the GOE is worth more compared to difficulty.

And/or refactor the PCS so that the maximum score (10s for every component) will add up to closer to what the tech scores that the best jumpers of today (as opposed to 20 years ago) are capable of achieving.

But of course that puts more weight on the qualitative/subjective aspects of the scoring,, compared to the yes-or-no decisions of the tech panel.

 

[skatesofgold]

Personally, I wouldn't watch figures. I just don't care. I also don't watch speed skating because speed doesn't matter to me all that much. If skating skills held more weight I wouldn't understand who the winner should be, and I would find that alienating because with the few exceptions (1994 women's, 2010 men's) the winners seem to have the most difficulty and get their level 4s. I'm sorry, but I don't think competitions should be decided by subjective measures.

Isn't the sport still popular in Russia and Japan? That means they're doing something differently than the United States that has nothing to do with the product on the ice or it's cultural shift in the US, which might be a helpless cause. I'm a school librarian, and I don't think young people have any interest in figure skating at all, let alone beauty in itself.. Even if there were skaters with long careers, I don't think it would matter. Maybe I'm just cynical. I feel similarly about how men's gymnastics will never be as popular as women's gymnastics in the United States because of culture and social norms.

I somewhat think the problem is the skating season itself. Figure skating is an expensive sport to attend as a spectator and I work a job where I can't take time off from October through March. I've been able to attend Skate America, but only when it was in the Chicago area. I haven't been able to attend a gymnastics world championships either because they're usually in September-November, with the exception of 2003 when they were in August.

 

[SmileHappy34]

Most non skating fans don't realize the skaters have invested sometimes up to 10 years in sports before becoming a seniors skater ( or known for natl , world , Olympic medal win.
That for the majority their careers are stall, injured or another reason cut short in the development stages of juvenile, intermediate, novice , or juniors. The ones the fans and public sees I'm seniors are the one that navigate to senior through support of family, financial, health and injuries.

 

[SmileHappy34]

While their senior careers may seem brief . It is actually years ( career) of work, development, progress in the making. That the lucky few made it to seniors and even luckier made it last

We should be grateful and thankful for both the long and short (brief) careers of skaters.
We do me miss what they bring when they skate no more.

 

[lariko]

As for the original topic, if we think that the revolving door of fourteen-year-old girls is harmful to the popularity of the sport, or harmful to the athletes, I believe that the only way to address the problem is to change the rules about what skills are most rewarded by the judging system. In the days when school figures dominated the sport, the problem was less an issue because little girls get better and better at figures as they get older, peaking maybe at 19 instead of 15. Trixie Schuba, perhaps the greatest FIGURE skater of all time, was 20 when she won the Olympics over two vastly superior free skaters, Karen Magnussen and Janet Lynn.

Obviously no one wants the judges to cheat and give artificially manipulated scores to older or to younger skaters, or to favor established stars over up-and-comers, or vive versa. I think this has become a straw man on this thread -- people rail against fans who condone cheating judges, but in real life there is no one rooting for dishomest judging, so who are we arguing against? But I don't think it can be denied that the current scoring rules emphasize and reward skills that very young ladies naturally excel at, especially rotational jumps and flexibility moves.

If we think that such an undertaking is worth exploring, what skating skills do we think could be elevated in importance to achieve a better balance? (The elusive “artistry” leaps most quickly to mind, but what exactly should that entail in terms of actual skating, as opposed to merely entertaining the audience and choosing compelling music?)

The judging is already far, far too bias toward rewarding PCS, otherwise we'd have at least Sato in the GP final since his technical is better than Aymoz's by a mile.

I would accept the following:

Men's PCS should be prorated like the women's if less than 1 valid quads + 1 valid 3A (above downgrade) are included in one program--> the only reason men's PCSs are prorated higher is because their tech is supposed to be higher than women's. That is the area where the most hyperinflation occurs in favor of PCSs. Anything less than 2 successful ultra C makes tech about equal.

Electronic measurement of average speed across the ice --> direct input into skating skill. If the skater fits into a percentile from the full group that competed that day, the skating skill as a mark can't be dropped less than 10% of that mark out of 10 (to account of glide). In other words, if the guy is in the 91st percentile, but his glide is crap, they can get 8 in SS minimum, but not 6.5 or whatever lowballing number.

Skating maps showing % of rink coverage --> will become a direct impute into Co, the 50% of the score (5/10). If the skater fits into a percentile from the full group that competed that day, the skating skill as a mark can't be dropped less than 10% of that mark out of 5. In other words, if the guy is in the 91st percentile, but the judges are annoyed by his choreo, they can get 4.5/5 in SS minimum, but not 3.75 or whatever. The second half of the Co score (5 our of 10) is transitions. That's calculated on the T/F basis prior and after each element performed and is dinged down for every second when the skater's body doesn't change position (i.e. static position with arms out or down).

Performance score remains up to the judges, but can't be less than 75% of the cum total of Co and SS.

I also want video proofs of full rotations appended to the scores on every jump performed by every skater in all ISU competitions, and each of them open to easy process of filing a complaint by the feds, with a TAT of 24 hours after the conclusion of each competition.

An few examples with the step sequence elements marked out available to the fans. SS can't have positive GoE if there is a loss of balance/stumble/fall within it, independently of the level it received.

The GoE must go back to +3/-3, because judges had shown that the scale of 5 is too complicated for them. Alternatively, reduce the margin for discounting the outliers in GoE scoring. The judges of this caliber should be able to agree within a point on the GoE. If something was scored above 2GoE in live scoring, but was found to be deficient in replay in some way, the GoE ding must be a flat value of -0.5 to acknowledge the life appearance of a well-executed element. This will prevent using the tech calls for reducing marks to fudge the score.

A commission that will look into ways to reward actually cool spins, versus whatever is happening now.

 

[4everchan]

The judging is already far, far too bias toward rewarding PCS, otherwise we'd have at least Sato in the GP final since his technical is better than Aymoz's by a mile.

I would accept the following:

Men's PCS should be prorated like the women's if less than 1 valid quads + 1 valid 3A (above downgrade) are included in one program--> the only reason men's PCSs are prorated higher is because their tech is supposed to be higher than women's. That is the area where the most hyperinflation occurs in favor of PCSs. Anything less than 2 successful ultra C makes tech about equal.

Electronic measurement of average speed across the ice --> direct input into skating skill. If the skater fits into a percentile from the full group that competed that day, the skating skill as a mark can't be dropped less than 10% of that mark out of 10 (to account of glide). In other words, if the guy is in the 91st percentile, but his glide is crap, they can get 8 in SS minimum, but not 6.5 or whatever.

Skating maps showing % of rink coverage --> will become a direct impute into Co, the 50% of the score (5/10). If the skater fits into a percentile from the full group that competed that day, the skating skill as a mark can't be dropped less than 10% of that mark out of 5. In other words, if the guy is in the 91st percentile, but the judges are annoyed by his choreo, they can get 4.5/5 in SS minimum, but not 3.75 or whatever. The second half of the Co score (5 our of 10) is transitions. That's calculated on the T/F basis prior and after each element performed and is dinged down for every second when the skater's body doesn't change position (i.e. static position with arms out or down).

Performance score is up to the judges, but can't be less than 75% of the cum total of Co and SS.

I want video proofs of full rotations appended to the scores on every jump performed by every skater in all ISU competitions, and each of them open to easy process of filing a complaint by the feds, with a TAT of 24 hours after the conclusion of each competition.

An few examples with the step sequence elements marked out available to the fans. SS can't have positive GoE if there is a loss of balance/stumble/fall within it, independently of the level it received.

The GoE must go back to +3/-3, because judges had shown that the scale of 5 is too complicated for them. Alternatively, reduce the margin for discounting the outliers. If something was scored above 2GoE live, but was found to be deficient in replay, the GoE ding is a flat value of -0.5.

A commission that will look into ways to reward actually cool spins, versus whatever is happening now.

I like your enthusiasm but really, a protest filing with a delay at each competition? This is never going to happen. There is nothing worse than watching a competition and not having the results right away. The hardcore fans may like the fairer judgments coming out of this idea but the other 95% of more casual fans would be upset and angry at this rule and lose interest.

 

[Skating91]

Watching the women's short program it's no wonder careers are short. Mana Kawabe carried an injury into the event, could barely land a jump, then was favouring one leg coming off the ice. In what sport would this be tolerated an injured player being sent out then immediately doing more damage within minutes. Sakamoto admitted to having a foot injury since August where she can barely get the skate onto the foot some days.

It's happening in plain view. That's three months of Sakamoto cause trauma to an already injury foot. This is a total failure of the coaches and medical staff in their duty of care, especially Mana Kawabe being sent out there onto the ice.

For Mana Kawabe is a 5th place at a GP event really worth the inevitable ankle surgeries in later years or the anti-inflammatory tablets taken for the rest of her life.

 

[lariko]

I like your enthusiasm but really, a protest filing with a delay at each competition? This is never going to happen. There is nothing worse than watching a competition and not having the results right away. The hardcore fans may like the fairer judgments coming out of this idea but the other 95% of more casual fans would be upset and angry at this rule and lose interest.

Actually, this process is already in place, it's just hard to use it and carries too much of a negative connotations. Tutberidze and Plushenko both used the process before, so did RusFed in an ISU competition. The only difference is that if a person is authorized to complain, it is done anonymously, force to resolve them fast, and I would also go as far as make the complaints themselves visible to the public thought not who filed it. Basically, just like any other Statement of Concern.

The results can be then revised based on a successful complaint, or let stand if the complaint is baseless. Obviously, put nuisance measures in too. The results revisions had happened with a delay as much as what...40-50 years? Or even more. So, nothing new, just more transparent and more socially acceptable.

I mean, we can argue a traffic ticket, but an athlete who might have missed the crowning achievement of their career has to take it?

 

[4everchan]

Actually, this process is already in place, it's just hard to use it and carries too much of a negative connotations. Tutberidze and Plushenko both used the process before, so did RusFed in ISU competition. The only difference is that if a person is authorized to complain, it is done anonymously, and I would also go as far as make the complaints themselves visible to the public thought not who filed it. Basically, just like any other Statement of Concern. The results can be revised based on a successful complaint. That also had happened with a delay as much as what...40-50 years? Or even more. So, nothing new, just more transparent and more socially acceptable.

Never heard of it.

 

[icewhite]

The judging is already far, far too bias toward rewarding PCS, otherwise we'd have at least Sato in the GP final since his technical is better than Aymoz's by a mile.

You just have your own idea in your head what figure skating is and should be. That's fine but there's a difference between what you think it should be and what is written in the rules. You argue with objectivity, but you basically make up your own concept.

Also, the judging too biased towards PCS? Lol. If you want to erase PCS completely, like you have stated you want to, yes, then any role PCS play is of course too big in comparison. But it should be 50%!
And one of Shun's problems is that he constantly drops levels on spins and step sequence - if he didn't, his position would look a lot better now. But spins and step sequences are an important part of fs, even if the judging system and judging often makes us forget that.

Okay, all of that is really not what I was talking about in the beginning of this thread, though. It's entirely different topic.