Kamila Valieva: Anti-doping Case and Follow-ups

[beachmouse]

The problem is "WADA was involved" in one doping case and "WADA not involved" in very similar doping case. There is no need to fight for the clean swimming, maybe?

There’s been a lot of fighting for clean swimming since DDR times but in the interest of keeping an interesting thread open, let’s not get sidetracked.

 

[norwegianfairytale]

Is 4 years ban really that long considering how bad this case is? Have people forgotten that Sotskova got 10 years ban for forging a medical document? The cases who got 2 years were mild cases were there were very small amounts of drugs in comparision and more convincing story how it ended up in the body

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Is 4 years ban really that long considering how bad this case is? Have people forgotten that Sotskova got 10 years ban for forging a medical document? The cases who got 2 years were mild cases were there were very small amounts of drugs in comparision and more convincing story how it ended up in the body

It is that long, 4 years is one of the harshest punishment in the world of doping, if not the worst one... For example, Chinese Olympic gold medalist swimmer from 2012 got a six months ban for the same substance...

 

[niks]

I was curious about the same thing... See my post above #183

I've just seen your post, thank you for the information.

But would that also include privately made commercial ice shows like the ones she frequently skates in in Russia? Those seem outside the realm of sport

 

[TallyT]

Is 4 years ban really that long considering how bad this case is?

Especially since it is backdated. I am sorry for the girl, she is young and I suspect was brought up by the adults around her to think cheating was justified by results and she - like too many others in Russia - would not get caught (people never ever do think "what if I'm caught?") but given everything she's been gifted in the last two years and her personal popularity and therefore money-making opportunities... she's still done well out of it, and Rusfed played up the martyr aspect for all they were worth. Which may be one reason why world officials didn't feel inclined to kid gloves.

 

[norwegianfairytale]

It is that long, 4 years is the harshest punishment in the world of doping... For example, Chinese Olympic gold medalist from 2012 got a six months ban for the same substance...

Didn´t Kostners boyfriend get a 8 year ban? And she herself got 16 months for accusations for lying about it, but they wanted to give her a 4 year ban at first.

Also it was not only one substance, wasn´t it 3 different heart medications? I don´t think "same substance" is relevant without knowing the amount of substance found in the samples.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Didn´t Kostners boyfriend get a 8 year ban? And she herself got 16 months for accusations for lying about it, but they wanted to give her a 4 year ban at first.

Also it was not only one substance, wasn´t it 3 different heart medications? I don´t think "same substance" is relevant without knowing the amount of substance found in the samples.

The ban was higher because of lying the authorities... In this particular case, WADA is the one who wanted 4 years, and theyve got it... They could ask for 1 or 2 years ban, theyve just wanted more, but they couldnt get more than 4 years is my point - for this particular case is the harshest punishment anyone can get...

 

[skatingguy]

Can you list some of those examples for Olympic sports? I am aware only of track and field, where if one competitor in a relay event tests positive, the entire team result is eliminated and none of the athletes keep their medals. For example:

'My son can't take medal to school now' - Kilty after Team GB 4x100m team stripped of Olympic silver

British athlete Richard Kilty says he is heartbroken after finding out his Olympic silver medal will be taken away because of CJ Ujah's failed doping test.

www.eurosport.com

I admit I am far from following every Olympic sport.

This Wikipedia page has an overview of doping cases at the Olympics.

Doping at the Olympic Games - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Tandara Caixeta, Volleyball - Brazil, tested positive from an out of competition sample during the Tokyo Olympics. Caixeta was withdrawn from the competition before the semifinal, and Brazil went on to win the Silver medal.

https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/volleyball-player-claims-innocence-over-positive-drug-test-2021-08-06/

Nickolas Backstrom, Ice Hockey - Sweden, tested positive during the Sochi Olympics. Backstrom was prevented from playing in the Gold medal game, and Sweden was awarded the Silver medal, and later Backstrom was also awarded a medal.

Nicklas Backstrom Finally Receives His Olympic Silver Medal From Sochi

Photo: @MalinElis In late February, as Swedish center Nicklas Backstrom prepared for one of the biggest games of his career, he learned…

russianmachineneverbreaks.com

 

[snowed]

I've just seen your post, thank you for the information.

But would that also include privately made commercial ice shows like the ones she frequently skates in in Russia? Those seem outside the realm of sport

I'm not sure... this is from the document "some or all sport-related financial support or other sport-related benefits received
by such Person will be withheld by Signatories, Signatories' member organizations and governments."

 

[icewhite]

Is 4 years ban really that long considering how bad this case is? Have people forgotten that Sotskova got 10 years ban for forging a medical document? The cases who got 2 years were mild cases were there were very small amounts of drugs in comparision and more convincing story how it ended up in the body

I think it's really difficult to compare cases. The usual ban is indeed rather 2 years. But it depends on a lot of factors and it's absolutely not as if 4 years are unheard of. Recently Halep got a 4 year ban. But every case is different. There are 6 months - or even 3 months bans, there are lifelong bans.

This is what's in the document:
It was therefore a matter for the CAS Panel to consider what sanctions, if any, should be imposed on
Ms Valieva pursuant to the Russian ADR, bearing in mind that, in the absence of grounds for elimination,
reduction or suspension, the Russian ADR provide for a four-year period of ineligibility. In order to
benefit from a reduced period of ineligibility, Ms Valieva needed to prove, by a balance of probabilities
that she had not intentionally committed the ADRV by engaging in conduct which she knew constituted
an ADRV or in conduct where she knew that there was a significant risk that said conduct might
constitute or result in an ADRV and had manifestly disregarded that risk. Having carefully considered
all the evidence put before it, the CAS Panel concluded that Ms Valieva was not able to establish, on the
balance of probabilities and on the basis of the evidence before the Panel, that she had not committed the
ADRV intentionally (within the meaning of the Russian ADR)

So the way I understand it with the way Valieva's side presented the case it was never a question of two years or four years, it was all or nothing.

 

[Arigato]

There's so many posts in this thread, could someone tell me what the substance or substances were that she tested positive for?

Edit: Never mind, I just found it.

 

[Greengemmonster]

Does the ban even matter in this case? Doesn’t Russia generally adore her and believe she’s some victim of an elaborate take down?

I assume they will let her practise, perform in shows, make money etc so the ban is in name only (I am glad that officially they have resolved this) but moot for practical purposes.

Can they even do anything if Russia declares her national champion for the next decade?

 

[Jumping_Bean]

It is that long, 4 years is one of the harshest punishment in the world of doping, if not the worst one... For example, Chinese Olympic gold medalist swimmer from 2012 got a six months ban for the same substance...

In 2012 trimetazidine wasn't banned yet, this case happened in 2014. The reason this swimmer received only a three-month ban was that he tested positive only 4 months after trimetazidine became a banned substance and was able to convincingly argue that he and his doctor hadn't been made aware of the newly introduced ban.

The other prominent case was in 2018, concerning US swimmer Madisyn Cox, who initially received a 4-year sentence, that was later reduced to 2 years and then further to six months when she was able to prove beyond any reasonable doubt (with actual evidence through lab testing) that her multivitamins had been contaminated with trimetazidine.

And just in general, FINA is much more lenient with doping suspensions than many other sports organisations, if you want my two cents about how much I'd trust FINA to be a good example.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Honestly I never cared much about the outcome of this. Valieva is clearly struggling for other reasons, her results of these four years don't mean much, internationally she's banned anyway, in Russia she will continue to skate at least shows anyway.
Russia loves her even more because of the whole story, she's the victim of the evil west, so while I would usually feel very much for her I think the verdict does not hurt her at all.
The whole team event is so unneccessary in my eyes anyway, so who gets those medals... I don't care much.

The thing that really bothers me is that here was a 15 year old who was obviously doped - and nobody really cares to deal with the question who gave it to her and whether other teenagers are also affected. People assume this or that, but neither the Russian authorities nor the ISU nor the IOC, nobody, is really making a move in the direction that would be correct: insist on an independent investigation of the adults around her, her coaching team that is known to not care about their athletes' health in other areas, and the team's doctor who has been confirmed in doping before - and if that investigation gets hindered or they are found to be responsible these people are banned from dealing with athletes at ISU competitions. Whether they compete for Russia, Georgia or Trinidad and Tobago.
I'm aware that most likely such an investigation would not be successfull because there are no authorities with the power to really look into things. It would come to nothing or someone not actually responsible would be thrown under the bus. But the fact that there is not even a serious attempt when there are good reasons to assume that there is doping of not just one teenager, makes me sick to my stomach.
As if this was all just a game. As if there was no reason why certain substances are prohibited, as if someone just randomly decided that broccoli should be forbidden for athletes.

Yeah, the whole thing is a bit anticlimactic really. The outcome is politically convenient for all involved organisations. WADA/ISU gets to look accountable on surface without really going after all responsible parties. FFKKR deep down is probably pleased - they have an endless roster of up-and-coming girls, so her main value to them now is as a martyr and to attract audiences to events/shows. She herself doesn't seem to be all that into competing anymore. It's mainly disappointing to her fans (for obvious reasons) and advocates for clean sport (because of the lack of action against other culpable individuals and organisations).

In an alternate timeline where the doping scandal hadn't happened, I have a feeling that she would have ended up like Zagitova - effectively retired after a season or two, not due to injury but simply because a lot of these kids have been brought up with the notion that the main point of competing is to win the biggest medals in the sport, then capitalise on the reputation earned to transition to professional show skating/sponsorships. She seems to be arriving at the same point now, only with extra psychological damage.

Regarding other restrictions like no training with ISU coaches/profiting from shows - she's in Russia so presumably there's nothing to stop her ignoring these restrictions? Without checking the specifics I do think the no shows policy is a bit harsh considering Carolina Kostner was performing during her suspension.

Hey, Galliamov and Mishin with actually very decent statements on this.
There is some brain in Russian skating left, thank god.
I just hope it stays that way because all the other statements are hard to take.

Can't say I know much about Galliamov but Mishin (and Moskvina) have always spoken their own mind. Maybe it has to do with all the turbulence they've seen and experienced over the past half century... People with lesser authority and experience would feel more pressure to be sycophantic. Then again there's Tarasova who is a similar age

So I just feel it is fair to include in that group of by-standing athetles hurted by the mess, the other members of the Russian team, who will lose the medal they fought hard for, for no fault of their own, and get nothing in return. I mean, after all, Katsalapov skated both programs with an acute back injury and probably going through a lot of pain. And I can't help thinking of Mark, who looked so so scared when he started both his skates, like he just wanted to run away from there, and you could actually see him forcing himself to start skating by sheer will power. Can't possible imagine the amount of pressure he was under and had to overcome, being the "weak" link of the chain (which he surprisingly turned out not to be in the end)

I feel pretty bad for Russian skaters in general. There is a tendency for the outside world to collectively stereotype them and treat them as a homogeneous entity, even though they are distinct enough that the different coaching teams can form alliances and conflicts (my favourite skaters always seem to be screwed over by this ) They face a high level of internal competition, political infighting, pressure to succeed (I'm thinking specifically about the terms and conditions associated with government-funded training), manipulative tabloids, fickle public opinion etc... It's rough when you're not a fed favourite. At some point the entire men's discipline was being mocked by the media for not dominating like the girls.

 

[beachmouse]

Does the ban even matter in this case? Doesn’t Russia generally adore her and believe she’s some victim of an elaborate take down?

I assume they will let her practise, perform in shows, make money etc so the ban is in name only (I am glad that officially they have resolved this) but moot for practical purposes.

Can they even do anything if Russia declares her national champion for the next decade?

From the ISU anti-doping handbook I found-

https://www.isu.org/inside-isu/isu-communications/communications-archives/352-1922-isu-anti-doping-rules/file

0.12 Status During Ineligibility
10.12.1 Prohibition Against Participation During Ineligibility
No Skater or other Person who has been declared Ineligible may, during the
period of Ineligibility, participate in any capacity in a Competition or activity
(other than authorized anti-doping education or rehabilitation programs)
authorized or organized by any Signatory, Signatory's member organization, or
a club or other member organization of a Signatory’s member organization or
in Competitions authorized or organized by any professional league or any
international or national level Event organization or any elite or national-level
sporting activity funded by a governmental agency.
A Skater or other Person subject to a period of Ineligibility longer than four
years may, after completing four years of the period of Ineligibility, participate
as a Skater in local sport events not sanctioned or otherwise under the
jurisdiction of a Code Signatory or member of a Code Signatory, but only so
long as the local sport event is not at a level that could otherwise qualify such
Skater or other Person directly or indirectly to compete in (or accumulate
points toward) a national championship or International Event, and does not
involve the Skater or other Person working in any capacity with Minors.
A Skater or other Person subject to a period of Ineligibility shall remain
subject to Testing.

Comment to Article 10.12.1: For example, subject to Article 10.12.2 below, an Ineligible Skater cannot
participate in a training camp, exhibition or practice organized by his or her ISU Member or a club which is a
member of that ISU Member or which is funded by a governmental agency. Further, an Ineligible Skater may
not compete in a non-Signatory professional league, Events organized by a non-Signatory International Event
organization or a non-Signatory national-level event organization without triggering the Consequences set forth
37
in Article 10.12.3. The term “activity” also includes, for example, administrative activities, such as serving as an
official, director, officer, employee, or volunteer of the organization described in this Article. Ineligibility
imposed in one sport shall also be recognized by other sports (see Article 15.1, Mutual Recognition).]

10.12.3 Violation of the Prohibition of Participation During Ineligibility
Where a Skater or other Person who has been declared Ineligible violates the
prohibition against participation during Ineligibility described in Article 10.12.1,
the results of such participation shall be Disqualified and a new period of
Ineligibility equal in length up to the original period of Ineligibility shall be added
to the end of the original period of Ineligibility. The new period of Ineligibility
may be adjusted based on the Skater or other Person’s degree of Fault and other
circumstances of the case. The determination of whether a Skater or other Person
has violated the prohibition against participation, and whether an adjustment is
appropriate, shall be made by the Anti-Doping Organization whose results
management led to the imposition of the initial period of Ineligibility. This
decision may be appealed under Article 13.
Where a Skater Support Person or other Person assists a Person in violating
the prohibition against participation during Ineligibility, the ISU Disciplinary
Commission shall impose sanctions for a violation of Article 2.9 for such
assistance.
10.12.4 Withholding of Financial Support during Ineligibility
In addition, for any anti-doping rule violation not involving a reduced sanction as
described in Article 10.4 or 10.5, some or all sport-related financial support or
other sport-related benefits received by such Person will be withheld by the ISU
and its Members.

 

[el henry]

This Wikipedia page has an overview of doping cases at the Olympics.

Doping at the Olympic Games - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Tandara Caixeta, Volleyball - Brazil, tested positive from an out of competition sample during the Tokyo Olympics. Caixeta was withdrawn from the competition before the semifinal, and Brazil went on to win the Silver medal.

https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/volleyball-player-claims-innocence-over-positive-drug-test-2021-08-06/

Nickolas Backstrom, Ice Hockey - Sweden, tested positive during the Sochi Olympics. Backstrom was prevented from playing in the Gold medal game, and Sweden was awarded the Silver medal, and later Backstrom was also awarded a medal.

Nicklas Backstrom Finally Receives His Olympic Silver Medal From Sochi

Photo: @MalinElis In late February, as Swedish center Nicklas Backstrom prepared for one of the biggest games of his career, he learned…

russianmachineneverbreaks.com

Thank you for the cites.

If I am reading these correctly, they differ from the Valieva case in a very important respect. The athletes who tested positive were withdrawn from competition before the medal rounds.

Of course that did not happen here. We will find out tomorrow, but my opinion is that this situation is more analogous to the the track and field athletes who did participate in medal rounds and whose participation therefore deprived their entire team of any medals that had been won.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

Without checking the specifics I do think the no shows policy is a bit harsh considering Carolina Kostner was performing during her suspension.

The ban from skating shows only affects state-sponsored shows (and any other shows with semi-direct ties to sports federations like galas organised by the ISU or ISU members), which luckily for Carolina are almost none of the shows in Europe, and unluckily for Kamila are almost all of the shows in Russia.

 

[Mathematician]

You are acting like this is somehow a special punishment made up especially for Kamila. It is not. It's literally a standard (and usually mandatory) part of any period of ineligibility due to anti-doping rule violations - Including provisional sanctions.

Kamila has already been gifted two more years of training and competitions than athletes in similar situations, who were forced to wait for years to even get to the point of a trial, all while not being allowed to train, and all without knowing when and if there would be an end to their waiting any time soon. That, in my opinion, is much more unbearable than Kamila's situation, in which she knows that she'll be allowed to return to elite training in October 2025.

Dude ... how did u get so many upvotes to this post. I literally said... multiple times... directly that my quarrel is SPECIFICALLY with the SYSTEM ITSELF and I do NOT think Kamila should get special treatment... like I SPECIFICALLY made that clear because you are like the 5th person to say something like this to me.

I do not understand why in any circumstance an athlete should be banned from training because it literally destroys their life. Just competition ban, yes, Kamila SHOULD BE BANNED FROM COMPETITION. Nobody has told me WHY ANYONE would get banned from training, thats impeding on personal life and its too far and I dont get it.

Gosh I cant with the internet how does your opening statement just blatantly state my entire point as the exact opposite of what I've said like 10 times and the hivemind just spams +rep I actually dont know dude.

Perhaps a good thing, I am so shocked I cant even be mad just slightly laughing and flabbergasted.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

In 2012 trimetazidine wasn't banned yet, this case happened in 2014. The reason this swimmer received only a three-month ban was that he tested positive only 4 months after trimetazidine became a banned substance and was able to convincingly argue that he and his doctor hadn't been made aware of the newly introduced ban.

The other prominent case was in 2018, concerning US swimmer Madisyn Cox, who initially received a 4-year sentence, that was later reduced to 2 years and then further to six months when she was able to prove beyond any reasonable doubt (with actual evidence through lab testing) that her multivitamins had been contaminated with trimetazidine.

And just in general, FINA is much more lenient with doping suspensions than many other sports organisations, if you want my two cents about how much I'd trust FINA to be a good example.

Lets be honest here, the biggest problem is the country she represents in todays world state of mind... Otherwise, her 'punishment' would be different...

 

[RafaelAstro]

Maybe because if she kepts training by her own means she can stay in a competitive level even tho she is banned from competitions and they couldn't control the use of substances while she is not competing?, I don't know it's just an suposition