Scoring bias at the national level

[skatingguy]

In any other sport this would be identified as corruption. Systemic corruption indicating every official is in on the ruse.

So it helps the confidence of the number one skater, but what about the other skaters they send to world's? They go to world's with their confidence shattered.

Any skater relying on the scores for their confidence is in the wrong sport, but the scores aren't about the skaters confidence. They're about showing the rest of the world that the federation has confidence in their top skater(s), and that the federation sees the skater(s) as contenders.

 

[Diana Delafield]

So it helps the confidence of the number one skater, but what about the other skaters they send to world's? They go to world's with their confidence shattered.

Or twice as determined. A lot of players in any sport are fiercely competitive and enjoy a challenge. They might not achieve the highest rank because of lower technical ability, but lack of self-confidence isn't a factor.

 

[Skating91]

Any skater relying on the scores for their confidence is in the wrong sport, but the scores aren't about the skaters confidence. They're about showing the rest of the world that the federation has confidence in their top skater(s), and that the federation sees the skater(s) as contenders.

The justification for manipulating scores was that it gives the number one skater a reputation boost for international competition. This would mean that the other two skaters going to worlds are unfairly having their reputation harmed going into worlds by looking relatively worse than they otherwise would if the officials were objective and had no agenda.

That is completely unfair and unacceptable.

Sorry, but this is systemic corruption.

 

[Magill]

The justification for manipulating scores was that it gives the number one skater a reputation boost for international competition. This would mean that the other two skaters going to worlds are unfairly having their reputation harmed going into worlds by looking relatively worse than they otherwise would if the officials were objective and had no agenda.

That is completely unfair and unacceptable.

Sorry, but this is systemic corruption.

I do not think it is corruption but I think it is a malpractice and intentional manipulation of the scores which should be called out as such and strongly condemned by relevant authorities and by the skating community. The fact it is being sort of broadly accepted is worrisome.

 

[skatingguy]

The justification for manipulating scores was that it gives the number one skater a reputation boost for international competition. This would mean that the other two skaters going to worlds are unfairly having their reputation harmed going into worlds by looking relatively worse than they otherwise would if the officials were objective and had no agenda.

That is completely unfair and unacceptable.

Sorry, but this is systemic corruption.

Scores at national competitions tend to be higher across the board, so it doesn't adversely affect the other skaters sent to international competitions. It's also important to keep in mind that the scores are means to an end - a ranking of competitors. If the final ranking is correct than there is no systemic corruption.

 

[Skating91]

Scores at national competitions tend to be higher across the board, so it doesn't adversely affect the other skaters sent to international competitions. It's also important to keep in mind that the scores are means to an end - a ranking of competitors. If the final ranking is correct than there is no systemic corruption.

I agree scores are almost always inflated in a national competition anywhere, but in this case I was talking about one skater having a 10+ PCS gap over the field. I thought it was extraordinary.

Then someone tried to explain it to me, saying that skating federations will often conspire to inflate the score of the number one skater (even more than the ordinarily would ) they are sending to world's in order to create a reputation boost for their number one skater ahead of world's. I then commented that this is to the detriment of every other skater in the national competition not receiving this outsized reputation boost. For the 2nd and 3rd skaters the reputation boost to the 1st skater is literally reputation damage to the 2nd and 3rd skaters and will hurt their scores at world's.

To me this idea of a reputation boost handed out to the number one skater if not corrupt is completely unacceptable and highly unethical. These skaters finishing lower than first worked too hard dedicating their life to the sport to have their scores meddled with in order to make the number one chance being sent to world's shine a little brighter. The officials are a law unto themselves.

 

[gkelly]

I agree scores are almost always inflated in a national competition anywhere, but in this case I was talking about one skater having a 10+ PCS gap over the field. I thought it was extraordinary.

Then someone tried to explain it to me,

Who explained this to you?

Someone with inside knowledge about what national judges actually do? Or an outside observer who came up with their own theory?

 

[Mathman]

Who explained this to you?

Someone with inside knowledge about what national judges actually do? Or an outside observer who came up with their own theory?

I think it was me., in post 181 above.

While I certainly qualify as an outside observer with no inside knowledge of what judges actually do, I can't claim credit for inventing this theory. It used to come up every time scores at a national championship were higher than what the same skaters got internationally. I think though that the national judges might be happy to give a nice send-off to all their skaters who are going on to worlds, Europeans, Four Continents, etc, in the case where a nation has more than one spot at these championships.

The last couple of times that Michelle Kwan competed under 6.0, the judges threw all their left over 6.0s her way, figuring (correctly) that they would have no further use for them. As a Michelle fan I didn't feel the need to cry corruption, though maybe Sasha Cohen (the Silver Princess) could have used a few of those.

 

[4everchan]

I don't think skaters themselves care that much about their scores at Nationals.

The topic is just blown out of proportion between fans.

Fan 1 : Michelle Kwan got 205 at Nationals...
Fan X : Yeah but scores at American Nationals are a joke
Fan 2 : Maria Butyrskaya got 215 at Nationals
Fan X : Yeah but scores at Russian Nationals are a joke
Fan 3 : meh... Nationals scores are inflated so Fumie Suguri who got 190 at Japanese Nationals will certainly win worlds anyway
Fan X getting slightly irritated : you cannot compare scores from different events, especially Nationals.

@4everchan giving likes to everyone while trying not to get involved in the Nationals scoring thing as he knows that National scores for Canadian championships will be even lower

 

[Mathman]

Fan1: Michelle Kwan got 205 at Nationals...

Strangely, Michelle never competed at U.S. Nationals under the IJS, the USFSA having dragged its feet in implementing the new system.

@4everchan giving likes to everyone.

You win my heartfelt approval. As for me, I have only so much righteous indignation in me. I can't affrotd to spend it on figure skating wars.

 

[gkelly]

Strangely, Michelle never competed at U.S. Nationals under the IJS, the USFSA having dragged its feet in implementing the new system.

Nor did Maria Butyrskaya at Russian Nationals, since she retired in 2002.

But 4everchan was just giving made-up examples.

 

[gkelly]

There was a national championship recently with a 10+ PCS gap between 1st and 2nd. The correct person won, and was well ahead of the competition. Still, it seemed quite extraordinary to me.

Has this ever happened before?

To follow up on this:

Are you talking about 10+ points of PCS difference across a whole competition or for a free skate only?

And which discipline? As I noted in another post, larger gaps will be more likely in the men's event because of the factors, so if that's the example you had in mind, we could look for differences of 8+ points for women or pairs, and 6+ for ice dance.

If you're interested, I can find some other examples over the years.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

To follow up on this:

Are you talking about 10+ points of PCS difference across a whole competition or for a free skate only?

And which discipline? As I noted in another post, larger gaps will be more likely in the men's event because of the factors, so if that's the example you had in mind, we could look for differences of 8+ points for women or pairs, and 6+ for ice dance.

If you're interested, I can find some other examples over the years.

The only Nationals i can think this could happen at this point of time is Kaori Sakamoto over the other Japanese women, but that's kind of a result with international panel of judges too (with a little difference of Kaori scoring less PCS internationally)...

 

[4everchan]

Strangely, Michelle never competed at U.S. Nationals under the IJS, the USFSA having dragged its feet in implementing the new system.

You win my heartfelt approval. As for me, I have only so much righteous indignation in me. I can't affrotd to spend it on figure skating wars.

Nor did Maria Butyrskaya at Russian Nationals, since she retired in 2002.

But 4everchan was just giving made-up examples.

Indeed I made sure to use skaters whose fan wars were limited to the 6.0 era

 

[snowed]

I've got an idea! I think it would make judging more fair/ correct, and would also cover national bias. The idea is inspired by the fact that the tech panel votes to reach a conclusion and it was mentioned that in gymnastics each judge judges just a portion.

Tech panel would do the same exact thing. To avoid national bias there should be no 2 persons on the panel from the same country.

The panel of 9 judges would be split in 3 panels of 3 judges each, and they will vote and reach a single mark (conclusion, see lower) so each single national biased mark/opinion will be outvoted in the panel.

Each panel can judge everything as now, or we can have each panel specialized, one for GOE for jumps, one for GOE for spins and step sequences, one for components.

The panel in charge with jumps double check the calls for edge and underrotations (tech panel would be placed on the opposite side of the rink than the judges, or at least this panel). The judges could not improve the call, just diminish if the tech panel called a jump clean but the judges see it under, it will be under, but not the other way around.

Ideally, each panel would go through all the bullet points and vote on those, and the computer will give the GOE. I think they should have enough time to do that in 2 minutes.

 

[icewhite]

I didn't see the event, but in the protocols Canadian national bias looks strong in 4CC's pair's today.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

I didn't see the event, but in the protocols Canadian national bias looks strong in 4CC's pair's today.

In the Free Skate absolutely, but not so in the Short (where the Canadian judge actually scored non-Canadian pairs more favourably than Canadian pairs).

The National Bias-O-Meter is really funny for the Japanese judge though, who basically turned around the amount of National bias for M/K and everyone else from the Short to the Free, so that it levels out at -1.28 for the Japanese pair and -0.9 for non-Japanese pairs.

 

[Mathman]

I didn't see the event, but in the protocols Canadian national bias looks strong in 4CC's pair's today.

I don't see anyhing overly alarming. I looked at the protocols for the free skate. For PCSs The Canadian judge scored Stellato-Dudek & Deschamps 0.68 points higher on composition and 0.54 points higher on skating skills than the panel as a whole did. All of the other 7 scores for Canadian skaters were less than half a point off.

In general, I think that we need to distinguish between corruption and human nature. Corruption is a when a powerful judge toe-taps out instructions to the lesser judges to designate what placements to give each skater. Corruption is a backroom deal to deliver a gold medal in pairs in exchange for a gold medal in dance (as was alleged and widely believed in 2002), or a gold in ladies in exchange for a gold in men's (as was charged at the 1980 Olympics). Corruption is collusion among federation heads to band together to dominate the results by bloc voting. Corruption is the speed skating faction pulling a parliamentary fast one over the figure skaters to freeze out Sonia Bianchetti and install Ottavio Cinquanta as ISU president. (Cinquanta later kicked Bianchetti oiut of the out of the ISU altogether over Bianchetti's continuing campaign against corruption in the sport.)

I am a lone voice crying in the wilderness on this issue, but I think that figure skating has become markedly less corrupt, not more, in recent years. The hue and cry over "narional bias" is overblown, in my humble opinion.

 

[4everchan]

I didn't see the event, but in the protocols Canadian national bias looks strong in 4CC's pair's today.

Watch it. The 3 Canadian teams did have programs. Many other teams skated to elevator music without much of anything. (Chinese team of Peng and Wang had a truly wonderful program)

All teams made mistakes. So I am assuming that you are referring to PCS.

In general, I felt that one team here was lowballed. Laurin and Ethier who had perhaps the cleanest adventure across both programs and end up quite low.

 

[4everchan]

I don't see anyhing overly alarming. I looked at the protocols for the free skate. For PCSs The Canadian judge scored Stellato-Dudek & Deschamps 0.68 points higher on composition and 0.54 points higher on skating skills than the panel as a whole did. All of the other 7 scores for Canadian skaters were less than half a point off.

I agree with this part of your post Isolating is because I cannot like fully the rest of your post. There is perhaps less corruption.. Hopefully there is.. but there is still real national bias.