What if the "flutz" and "lip" jumps were ratified?

[gkelly]

Interesting. Bobek's and Lipinski's coaches weren't exactly pushovers (Carlo Fassi and Richard Callaghan.)

It may have been when Bobek was between coaches, but I'd heard she taught herself the double lutz by watching more advanced skaters.

I had also heard that a big part of the reason that Lipinski and Jeff DiGregorio parted ways after 1996 Jr. Worlds (i.e., almost a year after the clip shown above) was because she wanted to put the triple lutz in her program and he didn't want her to.

That's what I was referring to.

 

[Mathman]

Compared to all the other decisions that go into scoring a figure skating program, deciding whether a jump was a correct lutz, correct flip, intended lutz left the ice from an inside edge, or intended flip left the ice from an outside edge is minuscule. It's almost never going to be the primary deciding factor....

And all the other decisions by the technical panel and the judges (the referee in figure skating does not make any decisions that factor into scoring -- I think you used that word to mean "technical specialist") are still going to be arguable. If you flatten out the difference between lutz and flip and remove that as a point of discriminating between skaters, then some other arguable decision or combination of many on the part of both panels -- number of revolutions in jumps, levels of elements, whether an element failed to meet the definition of an allowable to fill an available element slot, whether to reward or penalize the quality of an element with both good and bad points with positive or negative GOE or just 0s, how to score the various program component criteria, etc. -- will end up being the deciding factor(s). And anyone who disagrees with the final result will find plenty of individual decisions to argue against...

Another utterly convincing post. Everything you said is the exact truth and I cannot find a single point to argue about.

And yet … try as I might, I am not able to shake off the feeling that the CoP is ignoring the forest for the trees. I feel that the sport is contracting inward instead of reaching out; that is compromising the immediacy of the connection between the performer and the audience.

I was watching Olympic gymnastics just now. It used to be like this. A 9.8 meant really good and a 9.9 meant really, really good. If the judges – those scalawags and scoundrels – gave my favorite a 9.7, I could throw a sofa pillow at the TV because anyone with common sense can see that she was not just good (9.7) but really good (9.8).

Under the new scoring system the score comes up and she got a 13.56 for that routine, folks. Yes, the commentator can tell me whether 13.56 is really good or really really good. But that’s not the point. She got a 13.56 not because she was good or really good, but (as we find out the next day by looking at the protocols) because she got 2.93 points for doing a triple whatzit with a reverse whozit but she lost 0.87 points for flummoxing her pterodactyl, and when the computer added it all up it came to 13.56.

To quote Tom Hanks in Big: What’s the fun of that?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

MY LAST WORDS ON THIS ]( but you'ver heard all this before)

If one checks out the descriptions of the authorized Jumps in Figure Skating, one will find that:

1. All the Jumps rotate in the same direction (unless a skater performs the same jump to his opposite side as well.)

2. All the jumps land on a back outside edge (unless they are performing the few jumps which skaters do not do at the triple rotation level)

3. What remains, is that ALL JUMPS, from their descriptions differ because of the defined take-offs.

It seems to me that if the take-off on a jump is not correct, then the jump didn't materialize.

Yes, the directions of the air rotations for a Triple Flip are the same for a Triple Salchow and the back outside landings are the same, and the take-off inside edges are the same, too. But to rock over to a back outside edge while taking-off, is not in conformity with the description of the jump. It's absolutely wrong jump. It goes against the Name of the Jump!! No point in evaluating something that was not correct to begin with.

Personally, I see no harm for skaters leaving out a Flip or Lutz from their routines if they can not perform the jumps. There are plenty of ways to increase their points in CoP. It's a sport and harshness is applying the rules.

 

[gkelly]

If one checks out the descriptions of the authorized Jumps in Figure Skating, one will find that:

1. All the Jumps rotate in the same direction (unless a skater performs the same jump to his opposite side as well.)

This is not true. There is currently no requirement for skaters to rotate all their jumps in the same direction. There is also no official reward for doing jumps in opposite direction, with or without any requirement to do the same jump in both directions.

Sonja Henie used to rotate her lutzes clockwise and her axels (which would have been downgraded and therefore not count even as singles) counterclockwise. If a skater were to do the same today, without sufficient revolutions to be counted as singles or better, they would get full credit for both jumps but no reward in the technical score. Judges might find a way to reward it the program components if they noticed and were suitably impressed.

2. All the jumps land on a back outside edge (unless they are performing the few jumps which skaters do not do at the triple rotation level)

This is also not true.

Here's the latest version of the "First Aid for Technical Controllers and Technical Specialists":
http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/First Aid Singles 2008-09.pdf

Look under Jumps-Clarifications. The last entry is "Landing on another foot," which states that "All jumps may be landed on either foot" and "The call goes for the jump, independent of the landing foot. Judges will reflect this in the GOE if necessary."

If you intentionally land a counterclockwise jump on the left foot, it will be on a left back inside edge. Similarly for a clockwise jump landed on the right foot.

It's perfectly legal to do this on purpose and be rewarded if you do it well.

It is rare, but I have seen skaters under the new system do one-foot axel or one-foot double salchow, landing on the left back inside edge, in combination with a regular double salchow immediately following. The combinations are just called as 1A+2S or 2S+2S.

A one-foot axel or any other jump intentionally landing on the back inside edge of the other foot performed as a solo jump would just be called as 1A or whatever jump it was.

It's also a not uncommon error to land a jump on the back inside edge of the wrong foot and immediately change feet to recover from the error, or to land on the back inside edge of the usual landing foot and immediately change edge to back outside if any flow can be salvaged out of the landing. These would be penalized in the GOE as errors.

 

[Mathman]

This is not true. There is currently no requirement for skaters to rotate all their jumps in the same direction.

I don't think Joe is saying that you must rotate one way or the other, but rather that one jump cannot be distinguished from another by the rotation in the air. Or, for that matter, by the landing foot or landing edge.

If this is correct, then the only way to tell whether the jump you just did is a Lutz, a flip, or a toe-loop, is the take-off edge.

 

[gkelly]

I don't think Joe is saying that you must rotate one way or the other, but rather that one jump cannot be distinguished from another by the rotation in the air. Or, for that matter, by the landing foot or landing edge.

If this is correct, then the only way to tell whether the jump you just did is a Lutz, a flip, or a toe-loop, is the take-off edge.

OK.

Well, the difference between a lutz and a toe loop involves the direction of rotation in relation to the direction of travel of the takeoff edge. If I tell you only that a jump took off from a left back outside edge with a toe assist, you don't know whether it was a lutz or a toe loop until I also tell you which direction it rotated.

Similarly for left back inside edge. Was it a flip or a toe walley?

How do we tell the difference between an intended lutz and an intended flip, especially if we don't have a good view of the blade at the exact instant of takeoff? How about by what edge the blade was on/which direction the skater was traveling as s/he started to put the other toe into the ice, along with the position of the shoulders while reaching back with the pick? Then a closeup of the blade at the end of the pick-and-liftoff process would tell us how successful the skater was in executing that intention.

 

[Ladskater]

First of all for us figure skating "purists" or as I like to say "from the old school of figure skating - a Lutz jump is a Lutz jump and a Flip jump is a Flip jump. Skaters learn the difference between the two jumps when they learn the differences between their basic edges. Unfortunately with the demise of the figures discipline the importance of change of edge is not often drilled into today's upcoming skater. I don't think changing the marks so a skater can squeak by on so-so executed jump is going to add to the beauty and discipline of figure skating.

 

[Mathman]

This is a great thread!

How do we tell the difference between an intended lutz and an intended flip... how successful the skater was in executing that intention.

I am impressed with that language.

Joe's big lament -- quite well taken, and supported by many other posters, like LADskater above and Medusa -- is that we should not be in the business of giving out points for an "attempt." In the words of Yoda, "Do or do not. There is no try."

I agree with that. The baseball player intended to hit a home run, but instead he struck out. Mao Asada intended to do a triple Axel at Worlds, but instead
she slipped off her edge and fell on her face.

Mao got the same number of points for her attempt as the baseball player got for striking out -- and a -1 fall deduction to boot. (Although, if baseball were figure skating, the batter could still get some points on the second mark for a graceful and powerful swing. )

But...to judge the skater not by her intention but by how well she executed that intention -- that's very cool.

OT on this flutz thread, but my favorite rule is the phantom sequence. A skater “intends” to open with a triple flip-double toe combination. But she has a weak landing and is not able even to “attempt” the second jump. This is scored as a solo triple flip.

So far, so good. Now comes the place in the program, after the two minute mark, where she intends to attempt a solo triple flip. She not only intends to attempt this jump, she actually does attempt to do it. And not only does she attempt what she intends, on top of that she executes what she attempts – a triple flip!

This is scored as a 3F+SEQ – the +SEQ part being the missing double toe that she intended to put on her first jump, but in fact didn’t put on either. Her score = 5.5 times 0.80 times 1.10.

Actually, this is quite an ingeneous compromise. However silly it sounds, it nevertheless accomplishes just what we want to accomplish. It gives credit to the skater for what she did and punishes her, but only a little, for omitting what she should have done (besides the 1.3 that she might have earned for the double toe she also lost 1.21 for bending the Zayak rule, plus whatever negative GOE she got for messing up the landing of her first jump.)

Oh well, baseball has its infield fly rule.

 

[dorispulaski]

Making the lutz and the flip one jump has precedents. Before the Zayak rule was enacted, the toe walley and the toe loop were considered different jumps. At the time the Zayak rule was written, the toe loop and toe walley were by the stroke of a pen made to be the same jump.

The reason for this is that Elaine Zayak could do both the toe loop and toe walley, so if you wanted to avoid Elaine being able to do 7 triples, this had to be done.

Otherwise Elaine could have executed:

triple toe walley
triple toe walley combination
triple toe loop
triple toe loop combination
triple salchow
triple salchow combination
triple loop (always her weakest jump)

for 7 triples.

I always thought the part about limiting repetitions of a jump was a good idea, but what really peeved me at the time was not only redefining a jump to disadvantage Elaine, but the fact that an unlimited amount of double axels were allowed back then. Only triple jumps were limited.

 

[Mafke]

But a toe-walley isn't a real walley, the take off edges of both the toe-loop and toe-walley are identical (back outside edge [same as landing edge] with a toe-pick). The intention may have been to stop Zayak but in terms of classic technique, it's sound enough.

set up : toe-loop =/= toe walley
take off: toe-loop == toe walley

Merging the flip and lutz is the opposite, disregarding the take off and concentrating on the set up

set up : lutz =/= flip
take off : lutz =/= flip

Under proposal (calling new jump)

set up : (f)lutz =/= (f)lip
take off : (f)flutz == (f)lip (both start from a back edge [not landing foot] and a toe pick from the landing foot)

Unless figures are brought back for training/testing purposes it's probably futile to expect skaters to be able to do the correct edges on both jumps. In this light, the coaches proposal makes as much sense as anything the ISU has decreed in the last five years. But then the toe-loop and toe-walley should be counted as separate jumps (as by that time you'll probably have skaters doing one or the other off an inside edge).

(And let's face it, most of the audience likes triples and quads and they don't care if there are four toe loops vs four different jumps since the general audience can't tell the difference anyway.)

 

[antmanb]

But a toe-walley isn't a real walley, the take off edges of both the toe-loop and toe-walley are identical (back outside edge [same as landing edge] with a toe-pick).

I'm fairly sure the above statement is incorrect the take off edges for the two jumps are not identical..

Toe-loop (anti-clockwise rotater) : RBO edge with left toe pick assist.
Toe walley (anti-clockwise rotator): RBI edge with left toe pick assist.

Ant

 

[Mafke]

From wikipedia (caution: wikipedia)

"Walleys are almost always seen as single jumps. Double walleys have been attempted in competition, but are very rare, and no one does triple or quadruple walleys"

"Some people mistakenly refer to a toe loop done from the outside three turn entrance with a change of foot as a toe walley; a true toe walley takes off from a back inside edge, not an outside edge"

Every double or more that I've ever heard called a 'toe walley' is actually the toe loop preceeded by an outside three turn and change of foot.

Here you can see Kwan do one at about 0.57

www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjRn9pjbOCc

 

[mskater93]

And there used to be skaters who could execute a toe walley off the back inside edge properly (like Zayak). Because people flipped it over, they "combined" the toe loop and toe walley into one jump.

 

[antmanb]

From wikipedia (caution: wikipedia)

"Walleys are almost always seen as single jumps. Double walleys have been attempted in competition, but are very rare, and no one does triple or quadruple walleys"

"Some people mistakenly refer to a toe loop done from the outside three turn entrance with a change of foot as a toe walley; a true toe walley takes off from a back inside edge, not an outside edge"

Every double or more that I've ever heard called a 'toe walley' is actually the toe loop preceeded by an outside three turn and change of foot.

Here you can see Kwan do one at about 0.57

www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjRn9pjbOCc

Not really - Kwan does a triple toe-loop there - you can see as she places the right foot down it is on an outside edge.

The LFO three turn entry was always used for a toe walley so that the skater could set down the right foot onto the inside edge to execute the jump. When toe walley was effectively gotten rid of, it didn't matter which way the skater set up the toe-loop.

If you look up the performance by Zayak that prompted the rule change you can clearly see which are the toe walley's and which are the toe loops.

Ant

 

[dorispulaski]

And the toe walley is still a distinct jump in roller skating, on the inside "edge"

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Toe Walley is the mirror image of a Toe Lutz. Walley from a counter take off inside and landing on an inside edge. Go to the next Roller Championship and you will see it. No one in Ice Skating will do more than single Walley - Much too dangerous for a Triple, and the score would be as it would for a lutz.

Like Dancers (on floor), Skaters have favored sides either to the right (think Weir and others) or to the left (think Lambiel and others). There is no point in showing off your non-favored side because it is more difficult, and it will count as a jump pass and it wont be credited as anything special. Therefore ALL a skater's jumps will be the same airborne to their favored side. It doesn't mean that they can't change to the other foot; it's because why bother and lose a jump pass.

All the high ranking CoP jumps will be executed to the favored side and ALL will land on a back outside edge. It doen't mean that they can't land on a different edge; it's because of why bother, it's too risky at the triple, and maybe double level. E.g. when was the last time you saw a one-foot triple axel? Of course half loop jumps will be seen in footwork and not credited as a jump pass.

The bottom line for me with the CoP is... Although we see the fairness in giving credit for each element, we have also seen the limitations that the CoP has put on other elements, either directly or indirectly. But that is another topic.

At the Senior Level, one can easily balance oneself in a Spiral but can that same skater do a Triple Toe Wally? :scratch:

 

[gkelly]

Toe Walley is the mirror image of a Toe Lutz.

What does that mean? What is a "toe lutz," and what do you mean by mirror image?

Walley from a counter take off inside and landing on an inside edge.

Now you're talking about walleys? In the previous sentence you were talking about toe walleys. Completely different jumps.

The landing edge is irrelevant to the name of the jump. Walleys usually land on the back outside edge, like most jumps, but because they're generally only done as singles and as connecting moves they are more often landed on the back inside of the other foot, similar to a half-loop.

Go to the next Roller Championship and you will see it. No one in Ice Skating will do more than single Walley - Much too dangerous for a Triple,

Does anyone in roller skating ever do double or triple walleys (no toe assist on the takeoff? Or do they do double and triple toe walleys? Which jump are you talking about?

and the score would be as it would for a lutz.

Is that how they're scored in roller skating? That is certainly not the case in ice skating.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Ooops. The Wally does land on a back outside edge. I remember to do 3 in a row one had to rock over to the back inside edge to repeat the Wally. 3 in a row of wallys or loops for rollers was always the thing for bump bump bump music.

The Toeless Lutz is the mirror image of a Walley, The Lutz is the mirror image of a Toe Wally. All these jumps change position of the body in the air and not on the ice. (I don't think the Toeless Lutz is an officil jump in the ISU.)

Of course not. It's tough to do a normal Triple on Rollers. Oh those heavy skates. Maybe they lightened them up since way back. But I am sure one will see double walleys in Roller competitions, but just guessing.

I don't think Rollers uses the CoP. I'd like to see a Nationals Roller Competition, if I knew where it was being held. My info regarding the scoring of a Walley was from the posters saying in that at the beginning of the CoP. It really doesn't matter, no one is going to do Triple Wallys with Toe or without.

 

[gkelly]

Here is an Australian roller skating rulebook:
http://www.skatewa.iinet.net.au/free/free.pdf

I see that many of the jumps use different names from those used in ice skating, which leads to some confusion. They also have names for various half and 1 1/2 jumps that are rarely used in ice skating these days and when they are used might have different names or no official name.

Section 4.8 of that link lists all the possible triple jumps under class A and doubles under class B. They do include the double and triple "Boeckl," which is what ice skaters call an inside axel. Also double and triple toe walley. They do not include double and triple walleys -- only singles under class D. I take that to mean that no one does more revolutions from that takeoff on rollers either.

My info regarding the scoring of a Walley was from the posters saying in that at the beginning of the CoP.

Read the rules for yourself, don't rely on your memory of what other posters said several years ago. They might have been wrong. You might have understood them incorrectly or remembered wrong. The rules might have changed. But for the record, how walleys or toe walleys might or might not be scored has never had anything to do with how lutzes are scored.

It really doesn't matter, no one is going to do Triple Wallys with Toe or without.

Also, keep in mind that walleys and toe walleys are completely different jumps. Just because they have the same word in their names, in practice they have no more in common than a salchow and a flip, or than a loop and a toe loop. If when discussing one you unexpectedly bring the other into the discussion, it only confuses things.

That statement makes as much sense as saying "Skaters commonly do triple loops with toe or without."

Skaters might very well do triple toe walleys, which would be scored exactly the same as triple toe loops.

They won't do triple walleys, on ice or on rollers, because it's just not possible to get three revolutions from that takeoff. The same would apply to several of the other novelty jumps that are seen as single jumps in roller skating, possibly in this century (I don't know, I don't follow roller skating), and that were more common in ice skating in the first half of the 20th century before doubles and triples took over.

Under COP, they're considered "nonlisted jumps" and get no score as technical elements but are considered as transitions.

 

[Mathman]

Unless figures are brought back for training/testing purposes it's probably futile to expect skaters to be able to do the correct edges on both jumps. In this light, the coaches proposal makes as much sense as anything the ISU has decreed in the last five years...

And let's face it, most of the audience likes triples and quads and they don't care if there are four toe loops vs four different jumps since the general audience can't tell the difference anyway.

I think most of the discussion on this thread has tacitly been about the ladies. For ladies, I agree, there are not many who can do both a solid flip and a solid Lutz. And in the case of U.S. ladies, it is hard to name a single top-level skater who has a Lutz worth bragging on.

But for the gents it is a different story. I would be sorry to see the Lutz disappear from men's skating, or be mushed together into some catch-all jump. Male skaters who can really deliver that "pop" into the air off the outside edge -- that's just totally cool. It has the same effect as a delayed jump (like a delayed Axel), where the performer seems to defy the principle of conservation of angular momentum by hanging in the air a split second before the rotation begins.

Even a newbie spectator who can't tell one jump from another is going to say "wow!"