@FlossiH I think it might be something like this. The view that “lady” figure skaters are delicate little flowers, pretty but that’s all, is certainly both old fashioned and a put-down of female athletes. Now along comes a lady like Trusova who quads the pants off many male skaters (so to speak), and all she gets for her efforts is criticism for not being as delicate a little flower as Elizabtet Tursynbaeva.
The opinions, like expressed in this thread about what woman should and should not do in sport, how she should behave, and how they are scored. If male skaters get at least a begrudging acknowledgment that their jumps are cool, women get a wagonload of criticism for jumping. They are either little girls or they are cheaters who jump incorrectly or not worth watching because they are not exact replicas of princesses from the 1980s aka they don't have the PCS/artistic talent.
I'm yet to see an acceptance for women who have high jumping content and who put it forward, without hiding it with a great deal 'but I'm also a true lady. really, really.'.
There is only one way to be a woman approach is detrimental to sport. It should be acceptable that women are competitive, strong, athletic and don't need gauze, spirals and plastered smiles to win.
So, any statement, like was made in this thread, that women shouldn't do quads or 3A because it's incompatible with femininity is, to me, inacceptable. I want to see figure skating where athletic women not wearing swimsuits with gaudy decor will not be discriminated against by judges and fans waving the PCS flag.
Which is that excellence is more important than balance. We wpuld not praise a "balanced" program that has bad tech and equally bad blade to ice skills and that is equally lacking in aesthetic merit.
I wanted to add to what you said the way I see it.
Balance is misused as a likable and desirable quality.
PCS peeps love Jason Brown, but Jason Brown is not a balanced skater. Jason Brown is precisely Makar Ignatov in reverse. Neither one is doing average of the group skating/performance and jumps. They both are one-sided to the point where it is strongly obvious that one part of the equation outweighs the other.
The perfectly balanced skater is someone like Mozalev at his best. He was representing about average of both sides of the equation for his peer group. He was a solid 8 in PCS, average musicality and had two quads plus 3A with 50% rate of failure. That's what is really normal for his group, with other men trending up or down on both sides. There is a very small group of outliers who have far better jumping content (Malinin is super-extreme now) and an equally small group of outliers who have far better PCSs (I would go with Cha here just to put another name in).
However, people are not attracted to balance and solid 8s or solid Bs. They are attracted to the extremes, i.e. excellence.
The opinions, like expressed in this thread about what woman should and should not do in sport, how she should behave, and how they are scored. If male skaters get at least a begrudging acknowledgment that their jumps are cool, women get a wagonload of criticism for jumping. They are either little girls or they are cheaters who jump incorrectly or not worth watching because they are not exact replicas of princesses from the 1980s aka they don't have the PCS/artistic talent.
I'm yet to see an acceptance for women who have high jumping content and who put it forward, without hiding it with a great deal 'but I'm also a true lady. really, really.'.
There is only one way to be a woman approach is detrimental to sport. It should be acceptable that women are competitive, strong, athletic and don't need gauze, spirals and plastered smiles to win.
So, any statement, like was made in this thread, that women shouldn't do quads or 3A because it's incompatible with femininity is, to me, inacceptable. I want to see figure skating where athletic women not wearing swimsuits with gaudy decor will not be discriminated against by judges and fans waving the PCS flag.
An athlete delivers an iconic performance that garnered widespread mainstream attention... bringing new eyes to our sport... the most exciting and groundbreaking performance our sport has seen in years... and the first thing the ISU does is to say "Well, we certainly can't have any more of...
But, I would be absolutely thrilled to learn that absolutely everyone agrees that women should not be restricted from jumping 3A and quads by judgment or prejudice, should be rewarded equally to men via the scores, as well as have the same expectations from costuming.
The perfectly balanced skater is someone like Mozalev at his best. He was representing about average of both sides of the equation for his peer group. He was a solid 8 in PCS, average musicality and had two quads plus 3A with 50% rate of failure.
Elaine Zayak was known primarily as a jumper. The program that caused the Zayak Rule banning repetitions of the same jump was a badly (if innocently) choreographed one. Elaine had virtually all the triples the men were doing in her era in the early 1980s. And she was doing them with one partial foot and a boot with a wooden insert where her toes should have been.
So was Tonya Harding, before the wheels came off. Both women won the US championships and world championship medals -- the gold for Zayak -- with jump-heavy programs.
I'm going to say something that might be controversial - Acting like women are the same as men biologically is not feminist. I say this as both a woman, a feminist and a biologist.
In fact, particularly in sports, this thinking has caused a lot of harm in the past and continues to do so in the present. There's a reason why female footballers are up to 6 times more likely to suffer an ACL injury when compared to male footballers, why women often suffer stronger and more negative side effects from medication, and why the female athlete triad is such a big and underestimated problem.
Is there always overlap between the biological sexes? Yes, of course. Hormone replacement therapy also lessens these differences significantly, to the point where there is no statistical difference in many athletic aspects when comparing for example trans women and cis women. And some differences aren't biologically backed at all, but societally (like women naturally being better parents). But ignoring all differences completely and not engaging with them self-reflectively will not bring us as women or as a society forward.
Feminism isn't about women becoming the same as men, and it shouldn't be. It is about awarding women the same respect, opportunities and care. A woman having a heart attack being ignored because her symptoms are different than those of a man due to "women and men being the same" is not progress, it's the same BS as in the past, just under a "prettier" cover.
Feminism, by the way, is also about allowing men the space to express themselves in non-traditional ways, other opportunities and also, in fact, care - Not physically, but emotionally ("Men don't cry.")
And that, my dears, is the problem of equality vs. equity.
Equality is "just" treating everyone the same, regardless of circumstances, but this cannot by itself actually create an equal society. If I were to give everyone crutches. but some people don't have any problems with walking and others need a wheelchair because they are paralysed, how much have I actually achieved after all?
I am also not saying women are categorically incapable of certain things - I think there are very few things that are so strictly divided by biological sex. But I am saying that men and women will have to approach certain things differently in order to not be permanently harmed by them (just like a layback is very hard for men to keep into adulthood), and I am largely not seeing that in this sport, where having a more "womanly" body type is still seen as a problem by coaches, fans and commentators.
But, I would be absolutely thrilled to learn that absolutely everyone agrees that women should not be restricted from jumping 3A and quads by judgment or prejudice, should be rewarded equally to men via the scores, as well as have the same expectations from costuming.
To me the 3A or quad in the short program is not a burning issue one way of the other. In the SP (aka the "technical prpogram :lol: ) the ISU precribes some stadard elements, or groups of elements, and then the skaters are judged on how well they perform those elements.
The big pronlem with appliying the same judging standards to women as to men is with the PCSs. If the factors were changed to make them the same for men and for women (let's say that women's LP PCSs were factored at 100% like mens), then women's skating would be dominated by PCSs even as men's has become increasingly dominated by TES.
This would truly lead to a "ladies are pretty, men are macho" dichotomy in the sport.
Elaine Zayak was known primarily as a jumper. The program that caused the Zayak Rule banning repetitions of the same jump was a badly (if innocently) choreographed one. Elaine had virtually all the triples the men were doing in her era in the early 1980s.
Not really. She did many triple toes from various entrances (some of which could have been considered or at least intended as toe walleys rather than toe loops -- the Zayak rule was what erased the distinction between those jumps), a couple of triple salchows, and sometimes she included a triple loop.
She may have been attempting triple flips, lutzes, and axels in practice (I remember reading an article where she mentioned that she might do a triple axel), but she never showed them in competition.
So her jump repertoire really only consisted of 2 or 3 different jumps (or 4 on her best days if she included the loop and also clearly took off from a back inside edge on at least one of those triple toes, if you want to consider toe walley a different jump than toe loop).
In the early 80s, triple axels were new in the men's event, but quite a few men were including triple lutz and flip, whether they had the triple axel or not. Scott Hamilton didn't have triple axel or triple loop, so he had 4 different triples to work with. A number of his competitors had 5 and a few were aiming for 6.
In the early 80s it was pretty common at the time for average male jumpers and stronger female jumpers to include 3 or 4 triple toes in their programs. Zayak wasn't the only person using repetitions of the same jump to increase the total triple count, but 5 triple toes in the same program was considered overkill.
My understanding is that the reasoning behind the new rule was to encourage skaters of both sexes to demonstrate a variety of different triples, if they could, but not to rack up points by repeating the same triple over and over again.
So was Tonya Harding, before the wheels came off. Both women won the US championships and world championship medals -- the gold for Zayak -- with jump-heavy programs.
Harding and Ito did have 6 different triples to work with, same as most elite men of the time. Which they needed to in order to skate 7-triple programs (and potentially 8) because by the time they reached senior level it was no longer legal to build up the triple count with multiple repetitions of the same easy triple.
Ilia was the first man to land 6 clean quads at 2024 Worlds. That means no hands on the ice and all 6 quads with positive GOE. I keep forgetting I have to explain the obvious so some don't misread or misinterpret my posts. Those 6 clean quads were in the FS.
So, any statement, like was made in this thread, that women shouldn't do quads or 3A because it's incompatible with femininity is, to me, inacceptable. I want to see figure skating where athletic women not wearing swimsuits with gaudy decor will not be discriminated against by judges and fans waving the PCS flag.
No-one has said that jumping quads or 3A is incompatible with femininity. You are the one who brought up the issue with your claim that judges are misogynists (i.e. judges are males who are sexist and prejudiced against females). Given that many judges are female, your claim that they are misogynists is problematic - even leaving aside the offensiveness of your claim. Your arguments make even less sense given that you had been talking about Ilia Malinin (who is biologically male and, as far as I am aware, also identifies as male) when you made the claim that judges are misogynists. Claiming that people are sexist or mysogynists is a serious allegation to make.
Ilia was the first man to land 6 clean quads at 2024 Worlds. That means no hands on the ice and all 6 quads with positive GOE. I keep forgetting I have to explain the obvious so some don't misread or misinterpret my posts. Those 6 clean quads were in the FS.
Well, good for Ilia. You made me go back to look at Nathan's 2018 LP again. I don't hold the 4T+3T against him. Not much flow but the GOEs were two positive, three zeros and four negative for a trimmed mean of -0.37. Whatever, The step-out on the quad Salchow was a small but more evident distraction. Nathan had come into the competition undecided about whether he should try 5 quads or 6. By the time the moment arrived he was feeling his oats and went for it. Attaboy, Nathan!
Anyway, if anyone wanted seriously to criticize that performance and the judging it would be for the 9s in composition and interpretation. The program was only ordinary in that regard, IMO (and also in TR).
"Well, good for Bob" is something I might say should Bob get his car out of a ditch without a tow truck. That result isn't exactly the equivalent of making history in a sport. You'd think you'd be a bit more appreciative of Ilia's exceptional accomplishment. Ah, well . . .
^ Here is what I look forward to, When the 6 jumping passes rule goes into effect, Ilia's layout will be 4A, 4Lz, 4F, 4Lo, 4S, and 3A+4T. All with positive GOE, of course -- that's obvious.
Not really. She did many triple toes from various entrances (some of which could have been considered or at least intended as toe walleys rather than toe loops -- the Zayak rule was what erased the distinction between those jumps)...
I have often wondered if Elaine intended to demonstrate her edge mastery by doing now a toe loop, now a toe Walley. Or if she just did the same jump with what we would now call (on Lutzes and flips anyway) an "unclear edge."
The perfectly balanced skater is someone like Mozalev at his best. He was representing about average of both sides of the equation for his peer group. He was a solid 8 in PCS, average musicality and had two quads plus 3A with 50% rate of failure.....They are attracted to the extremes, i.e. excellence.
Err no. I unblushingly admit to bias but the perfectly balanced skater (one of the perfectly balanced skaters each of their time) is Yuzuru, which is why - as I said - he has a probably IJS-unrivalled list of achievements, and the love of audiences and creative artists, and is carving an almost new show artform. Thing is, he and that 2018 group really worked on excellence in every area, some a little more one way and some the other but all of them at least great or brilliant in all aspects. It is - just, incredibly - possible to be superlative in all things. That's where being the best of the best happens. I mean, I admire Trusova for being a fierce little forger of a new path, but she said herself she didn't care about a lot of the areas she knew were part of being that best. I repeat, she said it. Her coaches tried, but she actually didn't want to be the best figure skater in the world.
An athlete delivers an iconic performance that garnered widespread mainstream attention... bringing new eyes to our sport... the most exciting and groundbreaking performance our sport has seen in years... and the first thing the ISU does is to say "Well, we certainly can't have any more of...
Who said this? I can't seem to link. (And by the way, there are quite a few skaters similar sentiments can and has been said, so whoever you are championing is anything but alone in not being loved by officialdom, and it's usually politics anyway.)
"Well, good for Bob" is something I might say should Bob get his car out of a ditch without a tow truck. That result isn't exactly the equivalent of making history in a sport. You'd think you'd be a bit more appreciative of Ilia's exceptional accomplishment. Ah, well . . .
I admit, I find all those quad records (even by skaters I love) to be admirable and a buzz at the time but I'm reminded of a story Michael Palin told in his first travel series, about taking his mother on the then gee whiz Concorde to New York... "I thought it was terrific! When we got to New York, she said 'Right, yes.' I said 'You've been across the Atlantic! In two hours fifty-nine minutes! This is incredible!' 'Mmmm, right, where do we go now?'" Which is probably why Malinin is talking up quints - he may be already hearing "what next?"
