JGP: Are triples and quads worth it?

[lariko]

Oh, absolutely not worth it. Forget them. Everyone should just skate in circles and do single axels and mandatory spirals instead. Let's bury the figure skating as a sport. Who needs it if we can have shows and the skating skill. Let's sacrifice everything at this altar.

Is the brain dead plan to take away jumping passes not enough for some people? They won't rest when everything worth watching is canceled in figure skating for the sake of spirals. I can't even...

Anyway, enough with the antijumping whining already. The skaters that can't reliably jump quads, don't reliably jump triples, and those who can't reliably jump triples, don't reliably jump doubles. There is no helping poor jumpers by further penalizing good ones. There is no set of fair set of rules where Shimada won't always beat that Egyptian girl (at the level she is now) squarely.

 

[Anna K.]

What I'm talking about is how freestyle-relevant skating skills are scored in the context of freeskating programs. (Including short programs.)

I think @Diana Delafield best responded to this part your post when she noted that it perfectly describes the single dancers category. This is unclear though if these competitions are held internationally and at what scale (sorry, Diana, I don't follow it). This would be a great option for skaters like Hannah who love skating and performing but do not pursue the senior singles carrier for whatever reason.

If you're only using figures in novice and lower competitions, then from the point of view of junior and senior competitions, they would be training techniques, not skills that are directly measured in junior/senior competition. (Unless the rules for short or long programs were changed to include an element that directly uses those skills, similar to how the Rhythm Dance uses established pattern dances or pieces thereof.)

Most skaters at those levels compete only within their own countries, not internationally. Developmental/training approaches and rules for lower level domestic competition are the purview of the individual skating federations, not the ISU, and vary depending on the needs and priorities of those federations. The ISU can offer guidance for new federations developing their programs from scratch, but the larger federations would not welcome lower-level rules designed for small federations to be imposed on all their skaters (or vice versa).

The skills developed by school figures are definitely relevant to developing skills used in freeskating programs, but actually skating slowly on connected circles with specific turns placed at specific points of those circles is not and never has been part of freeskating programs.

Thank you for giving your opinion about school figures! I know that main points of your first post were other (I hope I'll get back to them later), but there was also this post from other forum member:

My only wish is that coaches still focused on skating skills and style, two things that will stay with a skater 4ever See what I did there

That's why I decided to bring school figures to this discussion.

IJS stands for International Judging System.
How is this phrase rendered in your language that you end up abbreviating it as JIS?

There is a simpler explanation: it's a typo. Thanks for letting me know! I'll correct that later (I understand that there is more than one count of it). Right now, I'm a bit busy with other things.

 

[gkelly]

I think @Diana Delafield best responded to this part your post when she noted that it perfectly describes the single dancers category. This is unclear though if these competitions are held internationally and at what scale (sorry, Diana, I don't follow it). This would be a great option for skaters like Hannah who love skating and performing but do not pursue the senior singles carrier for whatever reason.

Solo dance is a brand new discipline internationally. There are a few participants with elite-level skills, but at this time the top skill level or depth of field internationally is nowhere near what it is in other disciplines. I hope to see that change in coming years as the option for international competition attracts more skaters to specialize in solo dance.

But to clarify my point yet again:

SKATING SKILLS will always be a prime determinant of results. These will always dominate over Performance ability on its own because control of the blades affects everything the skaters do on the ice, in ice dance as well as in disciplines with jumps. Although the ability to keep time to and interpret music is indeed much more important in ice dance than in other disciplines.

Even when no jumps are involved at all, skaters with stronger skating skills will score higher than skaters with lower level skills but better performing ability.

Body type is much less likely to be an issue for solo dance than for other disciplines because the places where body type has the greatest impact are in jumps and in lifts (both for pairs and for partnered ice dance).

But there are other reasons why one skater may have lower skill levels in blade-to-ice skills than another. These include
*What age they started training
*How many hours per week they are able to practice on ice
*The quality of that ice time (skaters who have to fit in most of their training on poorly maintained rinks with dozens or hundreds of beginners sharing the ice will certainly be at a disadvantage over those who train similar amounts of time on well-maintained ice with only one or two dozens of competitive figure skaters)
*The quality and frequency of the coaching they receive
*Access to off-ice training
*Natural athleticism (e.g., muscle fiber composition, aerobic capacity, etc.), quite apart from the size and shape of their body

A skater whose on-ice skills are at a lower skill level will never be competitive with a skater who can skate much faster and more effortlessly on much deeper edges, even in ice dance. It's not about the jumps -- it's about the technical skating.

Some of those obstacles can be overcome with more time and money. So a skater who starts with a lot of disadvantages but is later able to add many hours of training on good quality ice with great coaches may be able to catch up to some degree with skaters who had all those advantages since preschool age. But other of those obstacles will always limit what the skater can achieve.

The skaters with the great performance qualities may win more fans, even if they don't have what it takes to win medals in sporting competition.

 

[4everchan]

People seem to forget that to be good at jumps, there is a level of skating skills that is required. Correct edges, good air position, good turns and transitions in and out, balance, flow, power and speed. Of course, some skaters have ultra fast and tight rotation and can out jump some with better everything else skating skill-wise. But let's not pretend that technique and artistry are two completely different things that are completely estranged.

 

[gkelly]

People seem to forget that to be good at jumps, there is a level of skating skills that is required. Correct edges, good air position, good turns and transitions in and out, balance, flow, power and speed. Of course, some skaters have ultra fast and tight rotation and can out jump some with better everything else skating skill-wise. But let's not pretend that technique and artistry are two completely different things that are completely estranged.

Very true.

Better skating technique allows executing more artistic choices successfully, and also allows executing more difficult jumps successfully.

The skating skills are prerequisite to everything else. The jumps don't really depend on the artistry, nor does the artistry depend on the jump technique.

 

[Mathman]

It's a new era: sacrificing everything you have and more in order to win is so out of date, in my opinion.

Oh, gosh, I don't think so. I think that every elite and successful athlete in any sport DOES sacrifice everything he or she has in order to win.

As for competitions in solo dance, top jump contests, school figures, how many revolutions can you spin. etc., sadly I don't think that there is enough interest in skating generally to support these specialist ventures. The most attractive feature to the audience is the rich smorgasbord of skills that a successful performance demonstrates.

Even for very popular professional shows featuring former competitive stars such as Hanyu in Japan or the Russian lady quadsters in Russia, the attraction is to see the athletes that we came to know and love during their competitive careers. Would Yuzuru's current charity shows attract the audiences that they do if he had never excelled in whole package competitiove skating, including being the leading quad/triple Axel jumper of his era?

Although... I wouldn't mind if the ISU started pushing Synchro harder. This would elevate and educate the public about choreography. Synchro is all about choreography (even as the most popular professional shows of the distant past were all about group numbers). I am pretty sure that the average casual fan has little idea as to the difference between good choreography and bad in singles skating beyond a vague feeling that "this skater moved me, that one didn't" -- but what are the judges going by?

 

[Skating91]

The Olympics next year will be interesting. 1st and 2nd place in the women's free skate in 2022, both had a tech score of 100 and 102 respectively. In the team event there was a woman that achieved a tech score of 105.

In 2026, I wonder if any woman will surpass a tech score of 75. For the fans that tune in once every four years and might watch some of the world championship every so often, I think they will be disappointed by what they see. 2022 was just so electrifying. It will be a step backwards for the casual fan.

 

[gkelly]

Oh, gosh, I don't think so. I think that every elite and successful athlete in any sport DOES sacrifice everything he or she has in order to win.

As for competitions in solo dance, top jump contests, school figures, how many revolutions can you spin. etc., sadly I don't think that there is enough interest in skating generally to support these specialist ventures. The most attractive feature to the audience is the rich smorgasbord of skills that a successful performance demonstrates.

At this point, what drives solo dance is the participants. There is plenty of interest among skaters who want to ice dance but can't find partners or just prefer to compete on their own.

Whether it will ever become popular among audiences remains to be seen. But as long as the skaters are paying their entry fees to compete in local rinks (as opposed to large arenas), the discipline will continue and hopefully grow. I expect it won't become fan friendly until and unless there is a deep field of individual skaters with top-level elite skill levels and also high-level artistry and charisma participating in this discipline. I do think that will happen eventually, but we're not there yet.

Although... I wouldn't mind if the ISU started pushing Synchro harder. This would elevate and educate the public about choreography. Synchro is all about choreography (even as the most popular professional shows of the distant past were all about group numbers). I am pretty sure that the average casual fan has little idea as to the difference between good choreography and bad in singles skating beyond a vague feeling that "this skater moved me, that one didn't" -- but what are the judges going by?

Here are the active ISU communications for Synchronized Skating: https://www.isu.org/synchronized-skating/rules/sys-communications

See ISU Communications No. 2635 for program content, No. 2639 for difficulty and features of elements, 2632 for GOE and deduction guidelines.
The USFS charts are probably easier to follow:

https://www.usfigureskating.org/sites/default/files/media-files/2024-25%20SYS%20FS%20Elements.pdf

The point is that synchronized skating is also a technical sport with technical elements judged on difficulty and quality.
For the most part the elements are less obvious to non-skater fans (and even to non-synchro skaters) than things like jumps and spins.
They would have more in common with step sequences and other ice dance edge-based elements, but they are defined primarily by ways the skaters interact with each other in group formations while performing various edge-based skills.

The Program Components guidelines are the same for synchronized skating as for the other disciplines:

https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/rules/sandp-handbooks-faq/31474-program-components-chart/file

Composition (what I think you mean by "choreography") is equal to the other two components, just as in singles, pairs, and ice dance. And the criteria are the same.

A well-constructed program that uses the required technical elements effectively will certainly earn more points in TES as well as in the Composition component.

It's not about singling out individual skaters. Individual personalities, individual facial expression, etc. are not noticeable in the same way that they are in singles and couples disciplines. So the emphasis of the various Presentation criteria may de facto be somewhat different than in those disciplines. But the definition of the component is the same.

And as in all disciplines, Skating Skills are always fundamental to everything.

The nature of this discipline is harder for viewers to appreciate on video compared to the live experience. And understanding the technical content is less obvious than jumps and spins. So it may never reach the fan friendliness of singles and couples disciplines (including perhaps solo dance) where fans can relate to the competitors as individuals.

But it is popular with participants; as long as that remains true it will survive.

If synchronized skating ever does get accepted as an Olympic discipline, perhaps nationalism will increase its popularity among fans rooting for their home team.

 

[Mathman]

The point I was trying to make about synchro is that I think the lay audience has a better chance at catching on to the composition component than is the case in other skating disciplines (even ice dance). A commentator could point out, "Look how smoothly the block formation dissolved into individual paired death spirals, just as the music segued from a march beat to a lyrical interlude" -- or whatever.

The audience can say, "Oh. yeah, I can see that! No wonder they got a 9.5! "

I don;t really think that the general audience gets much out of studying the bullet points on official ISU Communications.

Good point about participation. If solo dance and synchro attract the interest of the skaters themselves, maybe in the long run this will percolate down to the unwashed masses. And even if it doesn't, hooray for skating's recreational and social virtues..

 

[Mathman]

The Olympics next year will be interesting.

In 2026, I wonder if any woman will surpass a tech score of 75.

My prediction is that in the 2026 Olympics the gold medalist in ladies will not score close to 100 points in tech. The fans -- especially those from the new champion's home country -- won't care. They'll cheer just as loudly as if she had.

 

[TallyT]

At this point, what drives solo dance is the participants. There is plenty of interest among skaters who want to ice dance but can't find partners or just prefer to compete on their own.

Whether it will ever become popular among audiences remains to be seen. But as long as the skaters are paying their entry fees to compete in local rinks (as opposed to large arenas), the discipline will continue and hopefully grow. I expect it won't become fan friendly until and unless there is a deep field of individual skaters with top-level elite skill levels and also high-level artistry and charisma participating in this discipline. I do think that will happen eventually, but we're not there yet.

I think it has a good chance of becoming popular - look at ice dance, which is now considerably more popular and high profile than the more tech-based pairs skating (in the ESPN list of top Olympians of the 21st century earlier this year, V/M were there at 11). No, I am not saying solo ice dance will outstrip the current singles disciplines, or certainly not in the near future.

And can we stop saying "take it out of the Olympics if there's not enough jumps, not a sport!" Can we take a look at what was in the original Olympics, and everything that has been in and out of the modern Olympics and is seriously bidding right now for a place in the future? Can we even take a quick look at any half-way decent dictionary definition of the word sport?

 

[Mathman]

And can we stop saying "take it out of the Olympics if there's not enough jumps, not a sport!" Can we take a look at what was in the original Olympics,..?

I think that the issue is more the judging than the athleticism demonstrated by jumps. Yes, back in the day singing and playing the lyre were Olympic events. Emperor Nero won the gold medal every time.

 

[4everchan]

I think that the issue is more the judging than the athleticism demonstrated by jumps. Yes, back in the day singing and playing the lyre were Olympic events. Emperor Nero won the gold medal every time.

thank goodness the games are in Milano and not Roma

 

[Karoltyna]

I think that the issue is more the judging than the athleticism demonstrated by jumps. Yes, back in the day singing and playing the lyre were Olympic events. Emperor Nero won the gold medal every time.

They used to give olympic medals to the writers

 

[TallyT]

I think that the issue is more the judging than the athleticism demonstrated by jumps. Yes, back in the day singing and playing the lyre were Olympic events. Emperor Nero won the gold medal every time.

Well be fair, unlike modern judges those ones had good reason to fudge the scores and play favourites

And then there was art...

Olympic Art Competition

Olympic Art Competition

www.olympic-museum.de

But back to the question of triples and quads. I'd miss them if they were banned, no question but then I'd miss other elements just as much and, based on the evidence of which skaters draw views to skating I'm not the only one.

 

[lariko]

The point I was trying to make about synchro is that I think the lay audience has a better chance at catching on to the composition component than is the case in other skating disciplines (even ice dance). A commentator could point out, "Look how smoothly the block formation dissolved into individual paired death spirals, just as the music segued from a march beat to a lyrical interlude" -- or whatever.

The audience can say, "Oh. yeah, I can see that! No wonder they got a 9.5! "

I don;t really think that the general audience gets much out of studying the bullet points on official ISU Communications.

Good point about participation. If solo dance and synchro attract the interest of the skaters themselves, maybe in the long run this will percolate down to the unwashed masses. And even if it doesn't, hooray for skating's recreational and social virtues..

Oh, yes, the audience on synchro is really higher in numbers because there are more parents and other teams' members at the arena. Mom and I tried to watch a synchro performance since we were captive audience waiting for next discipline. We tried from the first row. We tried from the top of the arena. Just...nothing interesting. It's a seriously anti-spectator sport. Even speed skating is more exciting than this, because at least there is a race. The day synchro is pushed is the funerals of FS as something with any organic, willing audience.

 

[Karoltyna]

Oh, yes, the audience on synchro is really higher in numbers because there are more parents and other teams' members at the arena. Mom and I tried to watch a synchro performance since we were captive audience waiting for next discipline. We tried from the first row. We tried from the top of the arena. Just...nothing interesting. It's a seriously anti-spectator sport. Even speed skating is more exciting than this, because at least there is a race. The day synchro is pushed is the funerals of FS as something with any organic, willing audience.

Not interesting for you. So just don't watch it.

 

[lariko]

Not interesting for you. So just don't watch it.

I don't. They shoved synchro between other disciplines so there was no escaping them. And I don't want it promoted at the expense of other disciplines, funded and included as an Olympic discipline. I would rather they added a jumping tournament at the Olympics that doesn't require extra athletes and doesn't move figure skating even further away from entertaining/exciting for regular people The recreational is where it should stay.

 

[Karoltyna]

I don't. They shoved synchro between other disciplines so there was no escaping them. And I don't want it promoted at the expense of other disciplines.

Ok, you don't want, other people want. You don't find it amusing, other people do find it amusing. It's only matter of your preference. I don't want anorectic and abused children to be promoted and when they promoted them at the expense of adult skaters, I stoped watching ladies until ISU stoped this nonsense. But I don't think it will be the case for synchro.

 

[lariko]

Ok, you don't want, other people want. You don't find it amusing, other people do find it amusing. It's only matter of your preference. I don't want anorectic and abused children to be promoted and when they promoted them at the expense of adult skaters, I stoped watching ladies until ISU stoped this nonsense. But I don't think it will be the case for synchro.

Do you watch synchro?