Who is your favorite USA lady and who do you think will come out on top this season?! | Page 4 | Golden Skate

Who is your favorite USA lady and who do you think will come out on top this season?!

Joined
Jun 21, 2003
This idea as it's stated is rather too cryptic - could you explain eactly what you mean if it's not a question of stretching the rules?
I don't think anyone is proposing to stretch the rules. But some people believe that it would be a good idea, some time in the future, when the next ISU Congress meets, to consider possibly changing the rules for future seasons.

For instance, they could pass a new rule (effective 2011, say), that any skater who makes the Grand Prix finals, or who is rated in the top six in the ISU rankings, would get a pass to Worlds and not count against his or her country's allotment. (This year, such a rule would greatly benefit the Japanese ladies -- Go Fumie! -- but exactly who would be in a position to take advantage of the new rule would change from year to year.)

Actually, the current rules are already like that, to some extent. The idea of a World Championship is that each member of the ISU sends its champion to the big show. But years ago it was realized that some countries have more than one world class performer, so the rules were written in such a way as to allow countries to send two or three under various circumstances. In my opinion there is nothing sacrosanct about this particular compromise.

Personally, I don't have a beef with the current rules. But I think (perhaps naively) that the sport of figure skating is moving, however glacially, in the direction of the individual athlete and away from the National Federation. In other individual sports -- tennis, golf, etc. -- the best players are invited to compete in the top tournaments regardless of nationality.

The ISU is not set up that way. But I think it is worth considering rules changes that might give individual athletes greater control over their own destiny. In my opinion it would be better if, say, Caroline Zhang either does or does not make it to worlds based on her own skating rather than on what Kimmie Meissner did or did not do last year, or on the whims of officials in the USFS.

As i say, I don't have a strong opinion about this one way or the other (unlike Blades of Passion ;) ). But I don't see anything wrong with a continuing examination of the rules to see if maybe we can come up with positive changes here and there for the good of the sport.

JMO.
 
Last edited:

oleada

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 27, 2007
This is all in accordance with the rules. But couldn't the rules be revised in such a way that each skater has a chance to compete on his or her own merit?

Then again, it is the WORLD Championships, and shouldn't competitors from all over the World get to compete? What would have happened if, say, Bin Yao hadn't been allowed to compete at Worlds? It's important to send skaters from all over the world in order to develop figure skating in different countries. And it's simply not feasible from a financial or time perspective to allow everybody to compete.

Caroline (in this hypothetical scenario) isn't the only one who are affected. Japan has a number of ladies who could do very well at Worlds. Suguri couldn't even make the World team in 2007 even though she'd medaled the year before. Finland has 4 ladies who could do well, of which 3 have medaled at Europeans, but can only send 2. Russia has swept the pairs medals in the Junior Grand Prix so far, with six different teams winning medals, but can only send three to Junior Worlds. It happens.

There are a lot of benefits to being from a strong federation. You get a lot of support and a lot of healthy competition. But you also have to step it up when it matters. Besides, figure skating isn't the only sport with per country restrictions. At the Olympics, for example, some Chinese and American gymnasts couldn't participate at the event finals despite having scores high enough to qualify because teammates had finished higher. In women's tennis, Russian Anna Chakvetadze couldn't compete despite being ranked within the top ten at the time because of Russia's depth in women's singles. In fact, the eventual bronze medalist, Vera Zvonareva (who is having an outstanding year), was a last minute replacement for the injured Sharapova.

So I guess my answer is that it's impossible to be fair to everyone. But Caroline (and every other American or Japanese lady and so on) has a fair chance to qualify.

ETA: Sorry, Mathman - I didn't see your post earlier. Yeah, I have no problems with the current system either.
 
Last edited:

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Russia has swept the medals in the Junior Grand Prix so far, with six different teams winning medals, but can only send three to Junior Worlds. It happens.

In PAIRS, yes. But certainly not in Ladies, Men or Dance.
 

oleada

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 27, 2007
In PAIRS, yes. But certainly not in Ladies, Men or Dance.

Yeah, that's what I meant. :frown2: I must have omitted the word. I'll edit.

I also wouldn't mind, Mathman, giving those who make the GPF a bye to Worlds if they're age eligible for it.
 

london_calling

On the Ice
Joined
Jun 3, 2007
For instance, they could pass a new rule (effective 2011, say), that any skater who makes the Grand Prix finals, or who is rated in the top six in the ISU rankings, would get a pass to Worlds and not count against his or her country's allotment. (This year, such a rule would greatly benefit the Japanese ladies -- Go Fumie! -- but exactly who would be in a position to take advantage of the new rule would change from year to year.)

I really like this idea. I would also think that if a skater is age ineligible for Worlds but still makes the GPF, they should be able to skate at Worlds since they've proved they can skate and do well against the best.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
And perhaps you wouldn't be arguing the same if, for instance, it was Japan who were restricted by the rules to two skaters this year?

No, I was arguing the exact same thing in 2007 with Fumie Suguri not being able to go to Worlds because of Japan's deep field.

She got Silver at Worlds the year before and made the Grand Prix final for the 2006/2007 season.

It's really unjust when someone who has achieved that much within the sport is excluded from going to the World Championships. If you've shown that level of talent and capability, you deserve to go to the competition that is supposed to put all the top competitors in the world against each other.

Limiting these skaters is illogical. If you win a Grand Prix medal, you deserve to go to Worlds that year.
 
Last edited:

AwesomeIce

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Everyone has to play by the rules. But I think we can still ask whether the rules are fair to all individual competitors.

Caroline Zhang is currently ranked #6 in the world by the ISU. Suppose she does well in the 2008 Grand Prix, making the finals like she did last year, but finishes third at U.S. nationals. Suppose that Rachael and Mirai do equally well -- better than 90% of the skaters that will be competing in Los Angeles.

But Caroline does not get to compete at Worlds because three completely different skaters -- Kimmie, Bebe and Ashley -- dropped the ball the previous year.

This is all in accordance with the rules. But couldn't the rules be revised in such a way that each skater has a chance to compete on his or her own merit?

(To quote the town beggar in Fiddler on the Roof, "Because you had a bad day, I should suffer?" :laugh:)
First of all, who says Caroline, Mirai and Rachael will be the top three in any order at Nationals? Any or all of them could have some problem that prevents them from skating well (puberty/growth, too much pressure, injury, etc.), or someone else (Alissa, Kimmie, Ashley) could simply lay down better programs. To assume that it is going to be one of Zhang/Nagasu/Flatt that will be robbed of a chance to compete at Worlds because last years team "dropped the ball," is ridiculous. It is way too early in the season to possibly know who will "deserve" a place on the Worlds team. As for last year's team dropping the ball, I really dislike that phrasing. Overall, they did the best that they could. Kimmie had a rough season, she did a good job at Worlds considering what she had been going through. To expect her to pull a medal-winning performance would be asking too much at that time. Doesn't mean she dropped the ball. Ashley and Bebe were skating atWorlds for the first time, and they skated respectably. The US can't be on top all the time. Like any other team, there are periods of dominance and periods of development.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
First of all, who says Caroline, Mirai and Rachael will be the top three in any order at Nationals? Any or all of them could have some problem that prevents them from skating well (puberty/growth, too much pressure, injury, etc.), or someone else (Alissa, Kimmie, Ashley) could simply lay down better programs.
Quite so. That's why I said, "suppose." I was giving an example of the sort of thing that might happen.
As for last year's team dropping the ball, I really dislike that phrasing.
My bad. Bebe especially skated wonderfully. :rock: Kimmie will be back, and Ashley is just starting her journey -- the sky's the limit.

What I should have said was, suppose hypothetically that a country has three or more outstanding skaters. But the previous years' team won only two spots. What about the idea that the ISU could allow extra skaters to qualify for Worlds independently by having an outstanding season in other international competitions? Would this be a good idea or bad?

Actually, now that I think about it, I do see one problem. Let's say (hypothetically) that Mao Asada qualifies as an individual by winning the Grand Prix final. So Japan sends Ando, Nakano and Girl Number Four as their three national representatives. Girl Number Four got in through no merit of her own -- she didn't win the Grand Prix Final, she was just in the right place at the right time. It's kind of tricky after all.
 
Last edited:

Pikachuusb

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 27, 2005
How funny this discussion is coming up. Each year my boyfriend(who puts up with my skating obsession:laugh:) and I bring it up that there should be more slots for countries to send more than 3 skaters. Since Worlds is supposed to be showcasing the Worlds best, however some of the best dont get to compete. Japan is always our point of reference since they have Mao, Miki, Fumie, Yukari and others who would fare quite well against the "Worlds best" I understand the point that it wouldnt be fair to smaller countries who dont have the skating power against teams like US, Japan, Russia, china etc who have more options. But there is always the discussion year after year of who got robbed and should have gotten to go to Worlds instead. I guess you cant please everyone all the time;)

and yes I have to agree although the US girls werent able to secure 3 spots for this season, Bebe did a great job at her 1st Worlds experience:rock::clap::love:

Im just happy that there are soo many girls for the US team that could even be a consideration for Worlds. Who will ultimately make it remains to be seen. I'll be biting my nails during Nationals cheering for about 10 girls to make the 2 spots for Worlds.:laugh:
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
no one to root for (or even against)...that's probably why recent international comps have seemed so drab to me. OTOH, this coming national championships should be a good one in the ladies division, but I do think it will be a case of "who's left standing". Only two spots for the Worlds; the pressure will get to many skaters and will hit the young ones most.
 

Mafke

Medalist
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
Only two spots for the Worlds; the pressure will get to many skaters and will hit the young ones most.

Traditionally in skating (esp ladies) the younger the skater the better she deals with pressure (sometimes not realizing exactly what's at stake is a good thing).

I think the biggest pressure will be on Nagasu as defending champion and then Meissner (well past the young and super-confident stage).
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Meissner should NOT be feeling much if any pressure. The expectations were on her last year; this year, they're on the "New Generation." Kimmie can now play the role of the Underdog again. If she is at her best, she's in the mix. I applaud her for taking the risk to go all out for the two triple-triples, but maybe for consistency's sake it's time to go for just one.
 

goldenpleasures

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 1, 2006
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcKn_m_wJFA
:clap: :love: if alissa skates like this at USA nationals....she has the GOLD in the bag!!!!!!!!!!! :love: :clap:

:biggrin: :biggrin: go alissa!!!!!!!!!!! :biggrin: :biggrin:

There's no way ANYONE will win the US title with four triples. The loop was downgraded to a double, and even the flip, which was rotated, got -GOE for a questionable edge.

Alissa is a pleasant skater with good spins, but bearing in mind the competition she faces in the US, she's never going to be national champion. It would be a big shock to me if she gets any medal.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcKn_m_wJFA
:clap: :love: if alissa skates like this at USA nationals....she has the GOLD in the bag!!!!!!!!!!! :love: :clap:

:biggrin: :biggrin: go alissa!!!!!!!!!!! :biggrin: :biggrin:

Only if she cleans up the loop and lip AND she gets a 3/3. There are 5 current skaters in the US who have landed more than one ratified 3/3 AND at least 4 of them can pull off L4 spirals and L3/L4 spins and footwork. Heck, Ashley Wagner scored about the same at a club competition in her first outing with her FS and almost everyone on this board seems to consider Wager the 4th wheel of the new generation.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Alissa is in the enviable position that all she has to do is skate her program and not worry about what anyone else can or can't do.

It's too early to tell for sure, but she seems to have her Lutz and double Axel down solid. The flip is next. She doubled it, with -3 GOE, in the short and got a "!" in the LP. She didn't attempt a Salchow, doing two double Axels instead. Easy does it, one thing at a time.

Even with the her current content, she still came within a tenth of a point of her all-time best at Nebelhorn. (2008 Nebelhorn, 168.28; 2005 Skate Canada, 168.38.) For comparison, here are some others' PBs in international competition.

Caroline Zhang, 176.48 at Grand Prix final
Rachael Flatt, 172.19 at Junior Worlds
Mirai Nagasu, 163.34 at 2007 Junior Worlds
Ashley Wagner, 158.63 at Eric Bompard

Can Alissa win anything with a 5 triple program and no triple-triple? Shizuka Arakawa did at the Olympics.

This is the one time when the old cliche, "just skate and have fun," really comes into play. If others can step up with a triple-triple this and a triple-triple that-- good for them. In the meantime, go Alissa! :)
 

kittyjake5

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 7, 2005
Can Alissa win anything with a 5 triple program and no triple-triple? Shizuka Arakawa did at the Olympics.

QUOTE]

And lets not forget Sasha's Silver with two falls and Irina's Bronze
with a somewhat lackluster performance. I would not count Alissa
out yet.
 

fairly4

Medalist
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
in referenceto chuck m--in regards to national champ and ogm
1/ they wanted tara to become the next sonja henie -so they overlooked her faults on jumping technique and lowness of jumps. whereas michelle they nitpicked to death.also the usfsa politiced taras win in 1996 by Grandfathering her in that year to worlds.letting the other federations know once tara got up there they preferredher over michelle by being chineses descent. the media wanted a youngerster to win. they also wanted a young oskana in the us. (tara -michelle was older.
2) with sarah - michelle didn't have a coach and by 2001 they wanted another person because michelle was making more money thanthe pros. the brouhaha aroundskate america and skate canada. michelle was nolonger the it girl in us figure skating they was looking ahead to sarah and sasha in 2002. michelle was there to take the pressure off of sasha and sarah. saying see sarah can win under pressure. she and tara didn't have any. michelle handle it by herself without and help from the usoc/ usfsa. remember media how the made fun of michelle at the olympicsin 1998 by staying in a hotel. mentioning tara out and about butnot touching her to talk_tara -i mean , but went after michelle talk wise any way they could. and same thing with sarah.--left her alone not talking-but went after michelle and with sasha-made sure she had a phone in ear -socouldnt talk to media except after competition-short/long.
the usfsa politic they message they wanted --tara in 1998 to win sarah/sasha in2002.
also i think michelle hurt her foot in 1997 but didn't realize until 1998. shemight have thought boots/growth spurt. but i didn't think it was her toe than, but i believe she hurt it then and realize it in early 1998.
 

goldenpleasures

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 1, 2006
entire post

Why don't you put some capital letters and proper punctuation into your posts? People's names should be capitalized; that's one of the ways in which we recognise that they are names.

What you have written is almost impossible to read.
 
Last edited:
Top