Gymnasts, Figure Skaters, and Other Artistic Athletes Are Up Against an Unlikely Foe

[Mathman]

Is there any sort of precedent for that in other choreographic disciplines? General choreography can be copyrighted - but a single move? I dont think so.

That's the great thing about the the law. You can sue anybody for anything. You might collect, you might not.

Someone sued J.K. Rowling of Harry Potter fame over the word "Muggles" meaning people without magical powers. ("Hey, I invented this word first -- you stole it from me. Give me a million dollars.") The suit failed in court, but I am pretty sure Rowling's lawyers got paid for defending the suit.

 

[Mathman]

Two things :
1) utilization of music for figure skating has nothing to do with print material copyright. No need to even mention it and compare it.

I believe that this assertion is dead wrong. Copyright protection in music is one thread of the whole tangle that goes back to Queen Anne in England and in the United States was enshrined in the Constitution in the18th century.

Yes there is a specialty that deals specifically with music -- well, of course there is, there is a specialty for everything -- including licensing procedures, etc. (I believe that this was codified in the U.S. by the copyright law of 1976.)

 

[4everchan]

I believe that this assertion is dead wrong. Copyright protection in music is one thread of the whole tangle that goes back to Queen Anne in England and in the United States was enshrined in the Constitution in the18th century.

Yes there is a specialty that deals specifically with music -- well, of course there is, there is a specialty for everything -- including licensing procedures, etc. (I believe that this was codified in the U.S. by the copyright law of 1976.)

of course the principles come from somewhere common... you seem to be having fun with semantics tonight (for instance questioning my use of "good will") I am way too busy watching Korean ranking competition to keep talking about licenses. It's a debate that happens quite regularly on this forum. In Canada we have En Tandem/Socan. Have a look at their rules for licensing if you are interested. You'll see it's quite simple to play by the rules.

 

[gkelly]

That's another funny thing. "NBC etc." do have millions (unlike figure skaters), yet they do not seem sufficiently exercised over the issue to take any action,

They have taken action. They are no longer leaving (most) skating broadcasts available on demand beyond one or two days after the event, on the reasoning that broadcasts of live sporting events are news but replays are reuse.
(More complicated than that, of course)

 

[Mathman]

...you seem to be having fun with semantics tonight...

What I am struggling with is the assertion that everything is "that simple." If it were simple then there wouldn't be a problem. But there is. If it were simple then copyright lawyers wouldn't be rich. But they are.

The other point is that it is unreasonable to expect individual athletes, unsophisticated in legal and financial matters, to negotiate these swamps by themselves. They should be be working on their quad twist. It is also unreasonable to expect individual athletes to be able to hire "people" to handle these matters for them -- if thjey can afford to pay their coach by working off-hours as waitresses at Starbucks, they are ahead of the vast majiority of aspirants to figure skating success.

Why doesn't the USFSA handle these things on behalf of the skaters, (Hooray for Canada if they have indeed made it "simple" for the skaters.) Why doesn't the ISU?

 

[Mathman]

They have taken action. They are no longer leaving (most) skating broadcasts available on demand beyond one or two days after the event, on the reasoning that broadcasts of live sporting events are news but replays are reuse.

To me, this is a legal quibble that covers the networks' butts but does not do anything to help skaters, skating, or skating audiences. I guess that isn't their problem. What is frustrating is that no one feels that an ounce of prevention (securing permission to use music by paying a small fee) is better than a pound of cure -- thrashing about in court after the fact.

There must be some musical artists (Elton John for instance) who would be tickled that skaters would want to skate to their music.

(The other solution is for skaters to use only classical music that is in the public domain, instead of boring pop tunes that for the most part lack musical merit. )

 

[skatesofgold]

I had the same question, why this time? I am willing to bet that what these skarers did (whatever we think of their good will and professionalism) was no different than what thousands upon thousands of figure skater do and have always done.

Anyway, I cannot agree that copyright laws are "just as simple at that." When applied to print media, for instance, you can only copyright words, not ideas. There used to be lawsuits all the time where an unknown author would send in a screenplay to a big production company, the company (lacking good will) would rewrite the script and produce it, leaving the author to stew in his own juices.

Walt Disney's great nature classic the Living Desert was a famous example. The courts usually decide in favor of who can field the most powerful legal team. It is not a simple matter at all.

Yeah, I keep having the question of why now, as well. Streaming isn't brand new (it's been around at least 20 years because I was able to watch international competition of the 2004 Olympics), although Peacock is relatively new, but I've missed out on watching replays of competitions (both gymnastics and figure skating) I've wanted to watch over the last nearly 3 years because of this all. I guess it wasn't an issue when competitions were on regular television and that was it. They couldn't stop people from recording competitions on video tapes for their own personal use. I get the feeling that being able to stream the music for artistic sports during replays isn't as small of a fee as we think it is. The question is are other networks around the world paying this fee or are they getting away with it like NBC/Peacock used to.

 

[TontoK]

I still think that with the advent of AI, we'll eventually steer to each piece of skating music being "original." As the technology improves, so will the product.

Sometimes getting permission to skate to an artist's music might be pretty simple. I think I read that in the case of Ilia Malinin's music this season, he simply asked the artists if it was OK if he skated to it. I'm sure there was some sort of legal agreement, but those artists (neither of whom I had heard of, being the old fogey that I am) probably saw an opportunity. Their choice, of course, and they could have refused.

Caveat: Simply asking might not work for a novice skater in the same way it worked for a World Champion.

 

[4everchan]

What I am struggling with is the assertion that everything is "that simple." If it were simple then there wouldn't be a problem. But there is. If it were simple then copyright lawyers wouldn't be rich. But they are.

Lawyers make money because people don't take the time to do things properly If someone doesn't understand how simple the law is, then they need to take the time to consult someone who knows better.

The other point is that it is unreasonable to expect individual athletes, unsophisticated in legal and financial matters, to negotiate these swamps by themselves.

They do not have to do so.

They should be be working on their quad twist.

Not anymore. Quads in pairs are worth nada.

It is also unreasonable to expect individual athletes to be able to hire "people" to handle these matters for them -- if thjey can afford to pay their coach by working off-hours as waitresses at Starbucks, they are ahead of the vast majiority of aspirants to figure skating success.

Should it be made even simpler for athletes ? Sure. But it's not rocket science. Actually, coaches, in most cases are probably taking care of this already.

Why doesn't the USFSA handle these things on behalf of the skaters, (Hooray for Canada if they have indeed made it "simple" for the skaters.) Why doesn't the ISU?

You have to look at the data. Where are there more copyright lawsuits in the world ? USA. Where are doctors most likely to get sued ? USA. It's part of the USA culture. How is it that I can watch every single Canadian figure skating event and the archives (most of the times) online and it's impossible in the USA ? Because people take care of business up north.

So let's turn things around : how come a small country like Canada has managed to figure things out when a giant country like the USA hasn't ?
Good will and professionalism. Back to what I wrote a few pages ago. I am done with this thread since I am repeating myself

 

[4everchan]

I still think that with the advent of AI, we'll eventually steer to each piece of skating music being "original." As the technology improves, so will the product.

AI music is so bad..

Sometimes getting permission to skate to an artist's music might be pretty simple. I think I read that in the case of Ilia Malinin's music this season, he simply asked the artists if it was OK if he skated to it. I'm sure there was some sort of legal agreement, but those artists (neither of whom I had heard of, being the old fogey that I am) probably saw an opportunity. Their choice, of course, and they could have refused.

Good will and professionalism. Ask me if i want to share my sandwich and I will give you some... take it away from me and I will be upset.

Caveat: Simply asking might not work for a novice skater in the same way it worked for a World Champion.

They don't need to ask unless the artist is not part of the licenses agreement.

This has been said over and over. Figure skaters do not need to ask Taylor Swift personally if they can use her music. Licenses are paid. Sometimes, an artist is NOT part of the license's agreement... so then, there is a need to negotiate with them. It's rare. Also, it's not just about "using the music"... it's about where it will be used. Venues, iike skating rinks are responsible to have paid their own licenses, yes, even small rinks... even for music they would play for public skating. Even the dentists have to pay their licenses if they choose to play music in the waiting room. Venue licenses cover a lot of the issues so your novice skater is usually fine.

 

[4everchan]

(The other solution is for skaters to use only classical music that is in the public domain, instead of boring pop tunes that for the most part lack musical merit. )

Not really. If you use my recordings I also have rights And if I am not paid, I cannot purchase tickets for worlds... which means that the whole economy is suffering

 

[4everchan]

Some reading for those interested. Of course, point of view of a skater... so some of their opinion is to be taken with a grain of salt on whether or not artists should or should not file a complaint but in all, it is a good summary of what skaters have to do to be in the clear. Quite simple, for most cases.

Figure Skaters’ Use of Copyrighted Music | IP Law 422 001

As a life-long figure skater, I wanted to explore some application of IP law to the skating world for my final project and decided to focus on the copyright implications of skaters’ music selections. The music a skater chooses to skate to forms an integral part of their performance, with...

iplaw.allard.ubc.ca

 

[TontoK]

AI music is so bad..

Judging from some of the droning music of recent programs, "good music" is in the ears of the beholder. It's not as though we're drowning in spirited toe-tappers and emotionally engaging choices. But I concede my disdain may arise from my old fogey status.

I haven't played around with AI music, but in general the quality of AI is improving dramatically in other areas, and I would imagine that the same will hold true in music as well. Will an AI program spawn a new Mozart-like concerto? I doubt it, but it can't be worse than what we hear nowadays.

 

[4everchan]

Judging from some of the droning music of recent programs, "good music" is in the ears of the beholder. It's not as though we're drowning in spirited toe-tappers and emotionally engaging choices. But I concede my disdain may arise from my old fogey status.

I haven't played around with AI music, but in general the quality of AI is improving dramatically in other areas, and I would imagine that the same will hold true in music as well. Will an AI program spawn a new Mozart-like concerto? I doubt it, but it can't be worse than what we hear nowadays.

My friend, I wholeheartedly disagree with you on this, having looked at example of AI music for fun... It was... so much fun that we were laughing hysterically at how bad it was. Also, who said that AI music will not have rights on it ? It's not because it's public domain or AI that people get away with everything

 

[DancingCactus]

So called AI learns to create "music" by stealing and remixing real people's music, basically. It's both ethically and artistically horrible.

 

[noskates]

I really liked that music. But I always wondered why their team didn't do their homework and make sure it was okay. But again it always smacked to me of a little known band trying to get their name in the headlines.

 

[Mathman]

You have to look at the data. Where are there more copyright lawsuits in the world ? USA. Where are doctors most likely to get sued ? USA. It's part of the USA culture.

This is true. The USA legal culture is based, not on the principle of "malice toward none, charity for all," but rather "malice toward the other guy." You don't like what I just did? So sue me, loser.

The whole"advocacy" thing is founded on the idea that the lawyer's job is to say in court on the client's behalf what the client would say on his own behalf if he had the benefit of legal training. A lawyer is expected to fight tooth and talon for the interest of the client. Sometimes it works out in the interest of justice, sometimes not so much.

Same as politics. Vote for me. I promise to go to Washington D.C. and fight like hell.

No. Stop fighting. Stay home.

 

[Mathman]

OK, I have another question. When Boyang Jin dressed up as Spiderman in 2016-17 did he have to give some money to Marvel Comics and to the estate of Stan Lee?

By the way, in 2020-21 his LP music was -- wait for it -- House of the Rising Sun (choreogrphed by Lori Nichol, performed by another band that I never heard of -- The House on Cliff. I wonder if the band had to pay a licensing fee to the Stratemeyer Syndicate. prolific producers of children's adventure books in the 1920s and 30s (millions od copies sold). The House on Cliff was a title in the famous Hardy Boys series. This title is actually in the public domain now, so I guess anybody can call themselves the House on Cliff -- although this particular band took the name when it was still under copyright.)

 

[TallyT]

I'm not sure how this fits, but we have known for years that composers like Joe Hisaishi want and exercise control over how their music is used, I don't know what the monetary considerations are but he doesn't give out permission easily (or for some years at all) and was known to reject applicants for use where he didn't like how the music was adapted. So it's clear that skaters do approach the music rights holders, at least there?

 

[CelticRose22]

I really liked that music. But I always wondered why their team didn't do their homework and make sure it was okay. But again it always smacked to me of a little known band trying to get their name in the headlines.

I guess as well for the Elton John's of this world, income from licensing for Figure Skaters will be pretty trivial in the grand scheme of things, not so much for a lesser known band. And the fact it was used in the Olympics meant that once the lawyers got involved the numbers inevitably got inflated.