Gymnasts, Figure Skaters, and Other Artistic Athletes Are Up Against an Unlikely Foe

[CaroLiza_fan]

OK, I have another question. When Boyang Jin dressed up as Spiderman in 2016-17 did he have to give some money to Marvel Comics and to the estate of Stan Lee?

I just want to highlight this question, since nobody has picked up on it. Because you make a very good point in bringing up another potential issue: intellectual property outside of music.

Sota Yamamoto - 2013 World Team Trophy EX

This is an exhibition programme rather than a competition programme. But the principle is the same. When Sota Yamamoto dressed up as a member of International Rescue for his programme to a remix of the "Thunderbirds" theme tune in 2013, would he have had to pay the family of Sylvia and Gerry Anderson?

And taking it further - could people who cosplay be open to getting sued by the companies that own the characters that they are portraying?

If anybody does take issue with costumes and decides to sue, this could turn into a real can of worms. Not only would it kill off the very popular hobby of cosplaying, but it would be a further nail in the coffin for figure skating.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[jorge2912]

This makes it very illustrative to the topic of the thread although not necessarily in the wholesome and desired way!
Still, I do think copyright works differently in different countries. Just like ISU competition streaming on YouTube is perfectly legal in most countries but often geoblocked in US. I guess this video from Worlds was copyrighted for US by NBC and it still holds, and they still block it, it seems.

It happens me the same, I think that is against the purpose of ISU to do figure skating known worldwide and there's more countries that adopt it.

About copyright topic I think that in 90's don't happens that maybe because the when compact disc existed they had profit for it and for them was enough , now like everything is in cloud like Spotify and similar platform the unique way artists get profit is with concerts and lawsuits claiming copyright because Spotify by example pay USD $1,00 per song played worldwide but of that less the artists manager pay . Is less than a U.S. dollar.

I wonder if any artist gives for free the copyright for figure skaters thinking that if the song is great and people likes it , can even go worldwide and increase reproductions on digital platforms and get more money and it can even get involved doing the choreography. Is a good idea I think

 

[Magill]

Which is... interesting, as the video linked was not NBC at all, but the Eurosport (BESP) broadcast! - and there are several copies of it online along with the ISU one, none of which appear to be blocked in the US. The NBC version of the same skate got taken down quite a while ago (I have a downloaded copy and no NBC I am not sorry I did it )

All of which shows that absolutely no one has the foggiest what they are doing.

Well, I suspect US TVs and Eurosport have a different policy on their copyright material. Eurosport apparently believes allowing their material to be watched on You Tube after the event is promoting the material just as much as Eurosport itself. US media apparently believe otherwise which often ends up in the dog-in-the-manger kind of attitude - they have the rights - so no one can see it
Now, judge for yourself which outlook is more reasonable...
You can see this kind of attitude clash also in other aspects of the sport.
Successful sports do promote their biggest stars, seeking simultaneously to build on their popularity and looking for ways to use it as a kick for their own more general visibility and viewership increase. FS is apparently too absorbed in personal wars, or simply to inapt, to do even that... Instead of following the public choosing their own stars, they ignore them while trying to "make" stars which for whatever reason are more to their liking, but it just does not work. And we are in this position now where the biggest stars of the sport are thriving completely outside of the official structure while the "official" sport is struggling fighting for audiences and money. This is crazy.
Take Yuzuru Hanyu. They could see him as a treasure of the sport, instead they choose to see him and his ever growing popularity as some kind of threat. Officialdom is pushing Yuzu out of the official FS communication, evading mentioning him and his never stopping successes and achievements, and pretends it simply does not happen or is irrelevant. Yet his popularity is growing anyway, while this policy does not make the competitive sport or any current aspiring star-to-be any more popular. Quite to the contrary... This is the dog-in-the-manger kind of attitude all over again. Pitiful.
I wonder where it comes from as it seems to be so deeply rooted in this sport indeed ...

 

[4everchan]

About copyright topic I think that in 90's don't happens that maybe because the when compact disc existed they had profit for it and for them was enough , now like everything is in cloud like Spotify and similar platform the unique way artists get profit is with concerts and lawsuits claiming copyright because Spotify by example pay USD $1,00 per song played worldwide but of that less the artists manager pay . Is less than a U.S. dollar.

you are correct that online platforms are making it almost impossible for artists to earn any money.

I wonder if any artist gives for free the copyright for figure skaters thinking that if the song is great and people likes it , can even go worldwide and increase reproductions on digital platforms and get more money and it can even get involved doing the choreography. Is a good idea I think

NO.

 

[4everchan]

I'm going to sound like a stuck record here, but copyright claims on YouTube videos (be it by music companies or TV companies) seem to have only become an issue since the ISU lifted the ban on vocals.

The sport is in a battle for survival. The ISU have had their heads buried in the sand for far too long. However much they don't want to do it, they need to act now and do the one thing that will stop most of the copyright claims. Banning vocals.

CaroLiza_fan

This may be a problem on youtube because the copyright claims are most likely done by robots and vocals are probably easier to recognize... I will give you an example. At some point, an orchestra I am linked to posted a video of Mozart Requiem played by them with choir. It was flagged for copyright infringement. All they had to do is to dispute it as they were the owners of the video, the producers, they had paid their blanket license etc.. and 24 hours later, it was back online. It didn't happen of the same concert when they posted another excerpt with just the orchestra.

So perhaps it is easier for the youtube to pick up on music with vocals.

I personally never liked these pieces but I doubt the solution is to ban vocals. Look, I watch GO online and all RDs now have vocals... it's not a problem. Why do you think ? People have paid their licenses We are always back to this. What needs to happen is not that the ISU bans any music or impose any kind of music, but that they educate everyone about what is needed to skate with music. I think this has started already. The ISU could also make it mandatory for all event organizers to purchase the higher levels of blanket licenses for online streaming and archives just the way they make it mandatory for floods to happen regularly. You don't have a zamboni ? You cannot present a GP You don't pay your licenses, you cannot present a senior B ... that's all.

 

[Mathman]

NO.

The only time I can recall that a skatter did anything to advance a musician's public exposure and pppularity was when Michelle Kwan promoted Eva Cassidy's pretty song Fields of Gold. The Cassidy family (Eva died iin 1966) expressed effusive gratitude to Michelle.

 

[Karoltyna]

There is no reason to not pay the artists for their work. In PL we have copyright collectives, who will sell you needed license. It isn't expensive. But it's only for use in PL (including streaming events in PL). I'm not sure what a skater who wants to use the music outside PL should do. And because I find it quite complicated - as a lawyer with some IP experience - I was positive that feds have it covered. It appears they didn't have the solution?

 

[Mathman]

The ISU needs to admit that their plan to make figure skating more appealing for young people by allowing vocals has ... backfired,

I quite agree, but I do not blame the copyright issue exclusively.

The reasoning of the ISU was that in order to attract a younger audience (to make up for all the old fans who have died off) they have to stop skating to old-fogey music. But the problem is, if a teenager wants to listen to the latest Beyonce song -- well, go listen to the latest Beyonce song. Why suffer the unwelcome distraction of a skating performance going on at the same time?

The other problem with vocals is that the acustics in the venues, whether live or on TV, are so bad that you the auditor can't make out the words anyway.

 

[Karoltyna]

I wonder if any artist gives for free the copyright for figure skaters thinking that if the song is great and people likes it , can even go worldwide and increase reproductions on digital platforms and get more money and it can even get involved doing the choreography. Is a good idea I think

Most of artists don't own their music - production companies do. Artists own only the moral rights. There are quite complicated systems of fees for producers and artists depending on the intended use of the music. And you have to remeber that by "artist" you mean not only the singer and band, but also the songwriter etc.
FS is niche - no real exposure can be archieved this way.

 

[Arigato]

Beyonce is 43 years old. Hardly the choice of teenagers. Further, not allowing vocals in skating music was absurd. Age has nothing to do with it - try freedom of expression and dispensing with musical dictatorship in a sport.

 

[Mathman]

Beyonce is 43 years old. Hardly the choice of teenagers.

43 is a teenager to me.

Now excuse me while I go charge up the batteries on my hearing aids so I can enjoy the Grand Prix Final on TV.

 

[Karoltyna]

I'm going to sound like a stuck record here, but copyright claims on YouTube videos (be it by music companies or TV companies) seem to have only become an issue since the ISU lifted the ban on vocals.

Instrumental programmes, meanwhile, were being left with the audio completely intact. (Well, there were a few occasions when the audio got muted when the skaters were waiting for their results, due to what was being played over the speakers in the arena in between programmes).

The ISU needs to admit that their plan to make figure skating more appealing for young people by allowing vocals has completely backfired, and has actually made it less accessible to all people due to all the copyright issues arising out of it.

The sport is in a battle for survival. The ISU have had their heads buried in the sand for far too long. However much they don't want to do it, they need to act now and do the one thing that will stop most of the copyright claims. Banning vocals.

No really, copyright has nothing to do with the presence of vocals. The only difference may be that the authors of instrumental music may not be willing to pursue their rights because they don't have the means that popular artists have.
BTW ISU started streaming events in 2013 or so, ban was lifted in 2015, I don't think there is enough data to come to conclusion that vocals were the reason.
If there is a cause for this problem it's low knowledge about copyright in general.

 

[Arigato]

43 is a teenager to me.

Funny guy. I think not.

 

[Karoltyna]

43 is a teenager to me.

and granny for teenagers

 

[jorge2912]

Most of artists don't own their music - production companies do. Artists own only the moral rights. There are quite complicated systems of fees for producers and artists depending on the intended use of the music. And you have to remeber that by "artist" you mean not only the singer and band, but also the songwriter etc.
FS is niche - no real exposure can be archieved this way.

Depend, is the same artist are the songwriter they own the rights what that create but if they just sings a song that other person compose usually a content creator in the record company , are just a performer and don't own nothing except their image rights. Nowadays the 90% of the songs others writes and the artist is just a performer

 

[Mathman]

...Take Yuzuru Hanyu. They could see him as a treasure of the sport, instead they choose to see him and his ever growing popularity as some kind of threat.

I don't know about all that, but I do think that "skating officialdom" dropped the ball in not celebrating or acknowledging the poll of sports journalists' ranking of Hanyu as among the top ten athletes of the last hundred years in any sport.

If the ISU, etc., were serious about presenting figure skating as a genuine sport, they would have led off every broadcast with congratulations to Hanyu for this distinction.

 

[TallyT]

I just want to highlight this question, since nobody has picked up on it. Because you make a very good point in bringing up another potential issue: intellectual property outside of music.

Sota Yamamoto - 2013 World Team Trophy EX

This is an exhibition programme rather than a competition programme. But the principle is the same. When Sota Yamamoto dressed up as a member of International Rescue for his programme to a remix of the "Thunderbirds" theme tune in 2013, would he have had to pay the family of Sylvia and Gerry Anderson?

And taking it further - could people who cosplay be open to getting sued by the companies that own the characters that they are portraying?

If anybody does take issue with costumes and decides to sue, this could turn into a real can of worms. Not only would it kill off the very popular hobby of cosplaying, but it would be a further nail in the coffin for figure skating.

CaroLiza_fan

For the music side of it (because I do not think you can push the singing genie back in the bottle, even if there are a lot more, and trendier, instrumental pieces around now with TB and game and even trailer soundtracks etc) they could always do a Starr Andrews and sing their own programs or if they can't carry a tune get a relative or friend who can. No, I'm not serious... but I do think going back is not an option.

Regarding costumes, that is pretty easy to get round, since even if original creators could object to a 'literal' and pretty identical one, all the skaters have to do is use a costume which suggests - even strongly suggests - the source but is a technically different design. Like all the Schindler's List and Riverdance ones. There was an adorable Chinese couple who skated to the theme of The Untamed with costumes clearly inspired by the two main characters but (and I know because I have a zillion pictures of the main characters and the actual costumes are being sold on a zillion cosplay sites) not identical enough to be called copies. As I recall (not a Spidey fan) Boyang's costume was the same, clear suggestion but not anything that the costume designer could point to as direct copy.

With cosplay itself, we are getting into the murky (and debated for the last half-century with no clear answer in site) area of fanworks.

 

[el henry]

I quickly skimmed so forgive me if this has already been said:

The band that sued Alexa and Brandon does NOT participate in the BMI/ASCAP/whatever licensing entity is the broad based one.
The father of one of the band members is an ambulance chaser (Heavy Young Heathens chaser?) who looks for these kinds of cases, as far as I can tell.

The different licenses in the US cost different amounts: live performances versus broadcast replays. Replays are a lot more expensive. We love a niche sport. USFS can probably not afford the replay rights. NBC or other networks can. I believe (*believe* being the operative word) USFS buys the live license for national events.

Now, all of this is "Trust me bro" but I had citations to articles and such when the case first came out. Too lazy to look for them now, or even for my posts.

Copyright is country based and no idea how this works outside the US>

 

[Mathman]

Also, with regard to cosplay, identifiable characters such as Mickey Mouse are trademarked. I believe that trademarks have their own set of laws and regulations, not identical to copyright.

And what about playing a character who is an actual person, like Elvis Presley?

 

[4everchan]

I quickly skimmed so forgive me if this has already been said:

The band that sued Alexa and Brandon does NOT participate in the BMI/ASCAP/whatever licensing entity is the broad based one.
The father of one of the band members is an ambulance chaser (Heavy Young Heathens chaser?) who looks for these kinds of cases, as far as I can tell.

So that's why I said, they needed to do their homework. When you pick a piece that nobody else is using you better check... and they didn't. If they had checked ahead of time and didn't obtain permission, or if the band had said it's XXX amount of $$$, then they would have known to choose something else.

The different licenses in the US cost different amounts: live performances versus broadcast replays. Replays are a lot more expensive. We love a niche sport. USFS can probably not afford the replay rights. NBC or other networks can. I believe (*believe* being the operative word) USFS buys the live license for national events.

Same deal in Canada... is it more expensive here ? I don't know. but we do get archives/replays and everything is streamed.

Now, all of this is "Trust me bro" but I had citations to articles and such when the case first came out. Too lazy to look for them now, or even for my posts.

Copyright is country based and no idea how this works outside the US>