Is It necessary to skate to boring music? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Is It necessary to skate to boring music?

Boring music is subjective, but I think what David Wilson said when making program music for senior men in this interview is quite relevant for the topic:

With the senior level, and especially with the boys, those first three elements are quad, quad, triple axel, or quad, quad, quad. How do you get them to do a quad and think about the music, the emotion, anything? Other than landing that f***ing quad? What people need to understand is that we are living in a generation where skaters are pushing themselves to the edge of what is humanly possible. And I don’t say that lightly. Shoma, Yuzuru, Nathan are doing multiple quads in a performance: two, three, four, five — and it is like running a four-minute mile, or thirty meters in less than whatever the record time is — over, and over, and over again. All this within the context of something that is supposed to be meaningful, and beautiful, and intricate, and nuanced. That is our mission as choreographers: to create the illusion of artistry when they are basically trying to defy physics, defy human limitation.

It was not like that back when John Curry won Olympics with the triple salchow, triple toe and triple loop. He could afford to be beautiful. I am sure he could have done all these triples in practice. Petra Burka, my ex-coach, was credited as the first woman to execute a perfect triple salchow in competition. She is in the history books. In competition, she often did not even do it. She did it once, but she did not do it at the Olympics and I do not think she did it when she won Worlds in 1965. She was a very high jumper, she had springs in her legs, she was stronger than all other girls. And you know what she told me? She told me she did all her triples in practice! Even triple lutz — in the 1960s! But at the time skating was in a different place. It was not all about the jumps, so they were not pushing themselves to the edge. Now the challenge is creating something where we have the satisfaction that the music is being expressed, and those elements are being executed, where there is this union.

When you are talking about a vocal piece, the demands increase. When you have words being sung, sentences being delivered, and you have a story literally being told, the choreographic requirements become even more crucial. It is not just the highs and lows of the notes, and a dynamic moment followed by a soft moment — it is also words, meanings, thoughts, images, pictures. They are not left up to the imagination — they are words, we know what they are saying! So, whenever I use a vocal piece for a competitive program, I need an instrumental intro. We will do a little bit of choreography at the beginning, then go, skate, quad! A little simple transition on the music — not too physically taxing — go, boom, quad! Same thing again: a simple transition — not too physically taxing, but kind of musical — and go, boom, quad (or a triple axel)! And then I can have the vocal come in, because I will have at least 10 seconds where we can do something that addresses the words.

 
Actually I would like to know what Jimmy's coaches or choreographers meant by the term 'winning music' -or what other people think that term might mean? After all, when you look at the programs that do rack up wins... there's no formula, not even a vague one to the music choices. There are even shockingly bad cuts sometimes.
 
Actually I would like to know what Jimmy's coaches or choreographers meant by the term 'winning music' -or what other people think that term might mean? After all, when you look at the programs that do rack up wins... there's no formula, not even a vague one to the music choices. There are even shockingly bad cuts sometimes.
I rewatched the livestream for what Jimmy said about music choices. He talks about it around 58 minutes, it's finding a balance between what he wants to express and what do people enjoy. He also has to factor in that he's an athlete and has to be comfortable with it. He had to leave soon after that point.

This was during the Ice Dance discussion, where they brought up a good point about how Guignard/Fabbri's techno free dance came after Lopareva/Brissaud's techno free dance, which did not help their intended execution of the concept. I think Lopareva/Brissaud found the balance of what Jimmy talked about with their free dance and that helped them to win.
 
Interesting thread, @moonvine :)

Boring music is, yes, perceived subjectively by single listeneres, but there has been cases (I'm not referring to FS but in general music history) where boring music was been defined such by almost everyone who listened to it. I do believe that boring music is boring when there's monothony, nothing happens, no crescendos or climax, too slow tempo, too many repetitions, there's a lack of involving "movement" through the piece, but it can also happen you find it boring when the music is too difficult to listen or to understand (i.e electronic music, some contemporary musician, new music schools founders like Schoenberg, Berg, ecc) where there is no "dialectical discourse" as we're often accostumed to listen to, no involment, or simply it doesn't reflect one's own expectations. Since most of us are not accostumed to listening to these pieces always, it is difficult to perceived them as "wonderful" even if they are presented as a novelty.

This, of course, transferred to Figure skating leaves no space for enjoying entertaiment, specially when choreographies are poor.. that's why we find some performance boring, sometimes incredibly boring for me. Also, too many repetitions of the same music for different programs give the same effect.. I'm struggling with the "Dune" soundtrack this year:biggrin:

Maybe it becomes a trend to present a certain kind of music that from an artistic point of view it might be interesting, but from the audience's point of view it is terrible. Elite artists will barely find these music boring, so coaches and choreographers do the same I believe.
There is plenty of good original music and soundtracks in this world, so I always wondered why so many music choises should be so scarce... It is not that one should choose only classic music! Just a little more of original, interesting variety.
 
Is Spiegel im Spiegel boring? A progression of whole notes with minimal tintinnabular accompanimemt?

 
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Is Spiegel im Spiegel boring? A progression of whole notes with minimal tintinnabular accompanimemt?

Bite thy tongue! :drama:

Seriously, it's got to be one of the exceptions that prove the rule, though I honestly (personally) don't think it works as skating music. Obviously several elite skaters disagree but I don't like any of the attempts to use it.
 
Some of these comments have prompted a different question for me: what is a boring program? For me, this is separate from music because I’ve seen programs to music I quite like that I would still describe as boring, and I’ve also seen programs I think would be much improved by a change of music. Obviously it’s still very subjective, but “boring choreography” or “boring execution of a potentially interesting idea” seem like they should concern skaters just as much as what music they pick.
 
Some of these comments have prompted a different question for me: what is a boring program? For me, this is separate from music because I’ve seen programs to music I quite like that I would still describe as boring, and I’ve also seen programs I think would be much improved by a change of music. Obviously it’s still very subjective, but “boring choreography” or “boring execution of a potentially interesting idea” seem like they should concern skaters just as much as what music they pick.
Yes, some programs are boring even if the music is great and I have also seen programs which were so good they made me like the music I would probably not have liked otherwise. I really think what is thought of as boring music does not equal a boring program and a great program can make any music interesting, at least for me!
OTOH, Bolero is the poster child for boring music (which I don't agree with but well...) , unloved even by its very composer, and yet just think about how many great skaters felt challenged to skate to it, and some even with some iconic programs. Yes, one was more iconic that all the others, no matter how many quads were put in it it, here it comes, but still..

 
OTOH, Bolero is the poster child for boring music (which I don't agree with but well...) , unloved even by its very composer, and yet just think about how many great skaters felt challenged to skate to it, and some even with some iconic programs. Yes, one was more iconic that all the others, no matter how many quads were put in it it, here it comes, but still..


"I have written a masterpiece - unfortunately there is no music in it." :laugh: (He also apparently expressed surprise that orchestras were willing to play it - he would probably be astonished that it is skated to)
 
I caught myself that I am more often thinking about "boring choice"; not that much about 'boring music" or "boring program" but "boring choice" It usually refers to everything that's too cliche or overused: i.e. a tango program plus Piazzolla music plus a red/black shirt/dress. Even given that the program is done by a skilled choreographer, I like Piazzolla, and the dress looks good on the skater, my reaction is regardless "what a boring choice, should I really watch this?"
 
I will say that in attending Skate Canada in Halifax, the mens event, in particular, had some really slow music. It didn’t really inspire the crowd. It was made worse by the fact that it wasn’t the best skated event.
 
I caught myself that I am more often thinking about "boring choice"; not that much about 'boring music" or "boring program" but "boring choice" It usually refers to everything that's too cliche or overused: i.e. a tango program plus Piazzolla music plus a red/black shirt/dress. Even given that the program is done by a skilled choreographer, I like Piazzolla, and the dress looks good on the skater, my reaction is regardless "what a boring choice, should I really watch this?"
On the other hand, someone at CoC did Carmen in a yellow dress (with red flowers!) and it was all "why is she not wearing red?" "what an odd costume" etc

I will say that in attending Skate Canada in Halifax, the mens event, in particular, had some really slow music. It didn’t really inspire the crowd. It was made worse by the fact that it wasn’t the best skated event.
Sadboi music is in at the minute. I do not like it - I would rather listen to a flock of lachrymose cockatoos getting rained on at 4 in the morning - but it seems to appeal to the age group...
 
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On the other hand, someone at CoC did Carmen in a yellow dress (with red flowers!) and it was all "why is she not wearing red?" "what an odd costume" etc
Which is funny because I have definitely seen productions of Carmen that did not put Carmen in red ;) I remember a couple seasons ago seeing many complaints that a team wasn’t wearing blue to skate to Rhapsody in Blue… and then complaints that it was apparently the “wrong” shade of blue. All this to say, many skating fans are very literal-minded and have certain ideas about how they prefer their warhorses… maybe another reason for skaters to consider trying something fresh? (Or just a reminder that you can’t please everyone)

That being said, totally with you on the sad “emotional” acoustic songs with no beat, I groan every time. Pairs is one of the worst for this, or at least it was up until recently! Those do not count as a fresh choice to me :devil:
 
My comment on the sad/emo music is that it doesn't seem to create the right mindset for competing unless you find a way to end with a uplifting piece that expresses how you overcame your sadness/struggles (Shibutanis Coldplay comes to mind). This would be best skated by backloading your content to show how you got stronger (not a realistic option for singles or pairs).

Why would you want to accent your hardest jumps (usually done at the start) with music that is not helping create a positive mindset for you to even attempt them?
 
On the other hand, someone at CoC did Carmen in a yellow dress (with red flowers!) and it was all "why is she not wearing red?" "what an odd costume" etc
Which is funny because I have definitely seen productions of Carmen that did not put Carmen in red ;) I remember a couple seasons ago seeing many complaints that a team wasn’t wearing blue to skate to Rhapsody in Blue… and then complaints that it was apparently the “wrong” shade of blue. All this to say, many skating fans are very literal-minded and have certain ideas about how they prefer their warhorses… maybe another reason for skaters to consider trying something fresh? (Or just a reminder that you can’t please everyone)
Yes, it is a reminder that you can't please everyone. But it is also a reminder that, before you accept a complaint, you'd better check who filled said complaint and why. This is the web. We have not only fan culture but also anti-fan culture. Was the complainer a fan of the Carmen cliche or an anti-fan of the said skater? Because complaints like "why not specific color" or "it's wrong shade of color"do not sound serious tbh. Has it been registered as the official dress code or what? :shrug:
 
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Some have mentioned Schoenberg or Berg or contemporary music

How is this boring ? Maybe not a first choice for skating but better than some of the stuff we hear anyway :)



or this

 
Shibutanis Coldplay comes to mind.
Me, too. The Fix You program was the Shib's career masterpiece, and it won them the world silver medal. The music was among the most boring tunes ever recorded (YMMD). :)

Anyway, to each his own. The reason that I believe figure skating has shot itself in the foot with its de-emphasis of the great classics is this scenario: Suppose you have a ten-year-old child and you sign her up for skating lessons. Quite naturally she listens to Taylor Swift 4 or 5 hours a day.

At the skating rink, for the one hour a week when she is practicing her three-turns, Mozart's piano concerto #23 is playing over the loudspeaker. She is exposed to a different kind of music that she never knew existed.

Will figure skating enrich her life in the long run? Well, maybe not. But at least we tried. ;)
 
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Yes, it is a reminder that you can't please everyone. But it is also a reminder that, before you accept a complaint, you'd better check who filled said complaint and why. This is the web. We have not only fan culture but also anti-fan culture. Was the complainer a fan of the Carmen cliche or an anti-fan of the said skater? Because complaints like "why not specific color" or "it's wrong shade of color"do not sound serious tbh. Has it been registered as the official dress code or what? :shrug:

On the other hand, someone at CoC did Carmen in a yellow dress (with red flowers!) and it was all "why is she not wearing red?" "what an odd costume" etc
Which is funny because I have definitely seen productions of Carmen that did not put Carmen in red ;) I remember a couple seasons ago seeing many complaints that a team wasn’t wearing blue to skate to Rhapsody in Blue… and then complaints that it was apparently the “wrong” shade of blue. All this to say, many skating fans are very literal-minded and have certain ideas about how they prefer their warhorses… maybe another reason for skaters to consider trying something fresh? (Or just a reminder that you can’t please everyone)

Adding to the comments about Christina Carreira not wearing red and/or black to skate to Carmen but wearing a yellow flowered outfit instead, I think it's refreshing. I read somewhere that apparently Mathieu Caron pretty much insisted this is the route she should go, FWIW.

Other times that skaters went against the red and/or black for Spanish music "rule," Piper Gilles wore light blue for her and Paul Poirier's tango program and Olivia Smart wore light green to her and Adrian Diaz's "Zorro" program.

I thought both were successful, and if I recall, they were pretty well liked and viewed as more "original" choices:

Gilles and Poirier skating to "Con Buena Onda"

Smart / Diaz skating to "Puss in Boots" and "The Mask of Zorro"
 
My comment on the sad/emo music is that it doesn't seem to create the right mindset for competing unless you find a way to end with a uplifting piece that expresses how you overcame your sadness/struggles (Shibutanis Coldplay comes to mind). This would be best skated by backloading your content to show how you got stronger (not a realistic option for singles or pairs).

Why would you want to accent your hardest jumps (usually done at the start) with music that is not helping create a positive mindset for you to even attempt them?
I have a different perspective on this, especially for singles and pairs. The sad/emo music at the beginning represents the focus and hard work, or the more melancholy start, with also the hope that the less "lively" music helps the skaters focus and be able to land their jumps. And then, once all the difficult elements are done, it's time for the music to come "alive" . If they landed or did everything right it symbolizes triumph, right on time for what are usually the most interesting elements of the program: the choreo sequence and the step sequence. And if all of this are done right: the crowd goes wild.

So usually this structure helps skaters focus on their difficult elements and give the judges and audience a great "last impression". I also think about Matteo Rizzo's FS this season with Coldplay which uses the full song of Fix You, it has the melancholic --> triumphant structure. A similar structure is Nathan Chen's Phillip Glass FS- starts with the usual introspective Glass and ends with a techno remix (right on time for his choreo sequence).

To me, the Introspective --> Triumphant music structure is commonly used, aside from the Fast-Slow-Fast structure. I think now that it is very important to land all the jumps, the start of the program becomes important for focusing on making sure those jumps are landed. And the compensation would be to make sure to fire all the choreographic cannons at the end, to make sure we all leave with a good impression.
 
Is Spiegel im Spiegel boring? A progression of whole notes with minimal tintinnabular accompanimemt?

Spiegel im Spiegel, the First Movement of Moonlight Sonata and also Exogenesis Part 3 (Redemption) by Muse serve similar purposes in programs, IMO. The repetitive triplets gave footholds to skaters to glide on time while also maintain their focus (under disguise as "serenity" ) to do their difficult jumps (if singles). It also allows the skaters to be in front of, or behind, the music without it being too conspicuous as long as they knew to move with the count.

I think of Spiegel in particular as "anti-skating music" . This is a piece that kills all momentum, and does not have even the courtesy to provide some pick-ups at the end, unlike Moonlight Sonata who has the Third Movement to butcher and cut to paste after the First, or the ending of Exogenesis Part 3 when the band and Matthew Bellamy's voice kicks in.

Which does make it perfect for a program that represents the "death" of a competitive career. Shoma's last competitive FS ends with Spiegel, after a more dynamic piece (Timelapse), so not only Spiegel was used, it was used deliberately to kill any momentum the first piece of the music may have built. Is it the best choice to compete? Maybe not, if Shoma still has the motivation to continue. But for the end of a long career, it's a good choice for his stature.
 
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