Gymnasts, Figure Skaters, and Other Artistic Athletes Are Up Against an Unlikely Foe

[Kris135]

Why doesn't the USFSA handle these things on behalf of the skaters, (Hooray for Canada if they have indeed made it "simple" for the skaters.) Why doesn't the ISU?

The USFS handled the issue in the worst way possible. Yes they bought a license for love performances only with no replay options. Great job USFS unless someone wants to rearrange their schedule to watch the competition live they can not see it because the USFS was too cheap to get a more than extensive license that allowed for replays. Even for low level events like juvenile ladies for example. I really think that some one should sue under fair use doctrine for these events because no body is making money off of them. I heard that the music companies were saying that the only way the kids could get recording of their skating was to pay large sum's of money to get the rights. This is nuts no other country seems to have their problems with basic rights. Yes artists need to be paid but how much are they going to get after their labels take their cut. Maybe a couple of dollars if they are lucky. It is one thing to compensate artists for their work.it is nother thing to enrich the already enormously profitable record companies with money from children and their parents for skating to clips of their songs that they own. Leave the kids alone and just let them use the music without asking for a ransom first. Junior and Senior level events I can see the point though I think that even there the money that could be made is fairly small unless you are talking about the big names of sport like Ilia, who probably has the money to buy the music rights from who owns them. This where the USFS really dropped the ball here because how is sport supposed to grow if no one sees it because very few people are going to be able see things live because people have lives and let's be honest here most of events are during times when people are doing other important things. So I would be nice for the USFS to figure out what to do but I am not holding my breath on that one.

 

[TallyT]

...unless you are talking about the big names of sport like Ilia, who probably has the money to buy the music rights from who owns them.

Oh I very much doubt he has that much yet, if he ever will. Maybe Nathan Chen towards the end of his career... but is there any current competitive skater either independently rich enough or getting enough sponsorship to handle their own fees if they want something reasonably well known?

 

[4everchan]

I'm not sure how this fits, but we have known for years that composers like Joe Hisaishi want and exercise control over how their music is used, I don't know what the monetary considerations are but he doesn't give out permission easily (or for some years at all) and was known to reject applicants for use where he didn't like how the music was adapted. So it's clear that skaters do approach the music rights holders, at least there?

For him, it's not only compensation but integrity of the work. That was the issue mentioned in the article I posted regarding Kevin Reynolds program which didn't meet the approval because the music editing was too much for the taste or Mr Hisaishi. I am sure I don't need to tell you what Hanyu needed to go through to get his program approved you probably already know

 

[4everchan]

I guess as well for the Elton John's of this world, income from licensing for Figure Skaters will be pretty trivial in the grand scheme of things, not so much for a lesser known band. And the fact it was used in the Olympics meant that once the lawyers got involved the numbers inevitably got inflated.

Exactly. Money from licensing is very minimal and it wouldn't make a difference for a very well established artist. However, for some artists, their music is the only thing they own... they probably even had to pay from their own pocket to get it released if you calculate studio time and human resources related to recording and editing... I am not even mentioning marketing, distribution and even less creative process and practicing. It really doesn't matter who the band was, if the music was good or not, if they are trying to bank of the fact that it was presented at the Olympics etc.. the point is that rights were not cleared. When rights are cleared, then there is no case to discuss.

 

[4everchan]

The USFS handled the issue in the worst way possible. Yes they bought a license for love performances only with no replay options. Great job USFS unless someone wants to rearrange their schedule to watch the competition live they can not see it because the USFS was too cheap to get a more than extensive license that allowed for replays. Even for low level events like juvenile ladies for example. I really think that some one should sue under fair use doctrine for these events because no body is making money off of them. I heard that the music companies were saying that the only way the kids could get recording of their skating was to pay large sum's of money to get the rights. This is nuts no other country seems to have their problems with basic rights. Yes artists need to be paid but how much are they going to get after their labels take their cut. Maybe a couple of dollars if they are lucky. It is one thing to compensate artists for their work.it is nother thing to enrich the already enormously profitable record companies with money from children and their parents for skating to clips of their songs that they own. Leave the kids alone and just let them use the music without asking for a ransom first. Junior and Senior level events I can see the point though I think that even there the money that could be made is fairly small unless you are talking about the big names of sport like Ilia, who probably has the money to buy the music rights from who owns them. This where the USFS really dropped the ball here because how is sport supposed to grow if no one sees it because very few people are going to be able see things live because people have lives and let's be honest here most of events are during times when people are doing other important things. So I would be nice for the USFS to figure out what to do but I am not holding my breath on that one.

It doesn't work like this. Skaters don't need to pay the artists nor the label for rights unless it's a very exceptional case.

The licensing is usually paid by the venues and/ or the event organizers. So sure, you can blame all the small US events and the USFS for not buying the licenses they need to stream and/or archive skating competitions. They probably only purchase the strict minimum licenses and do not care. They should talk to Skate Canada and figure out one thing or two.

In the end, it's not that difficult to do the right thing BUT it could be made easier. The ISU and other "artistic sports" could get together and come up with an arrangement with the big licensing companies that manage music rights. It would certainly make the life easier for skaters and their fans... but do I really believe they will go through the trouble of doing that ? Not until it becomes absolutely necessary and history shows it hasn't been.

I don't think I need to remind fans that the K/F case is a very exceptional one. We have been watching skating just fine for decades without issues of that nature. Yes, there has been issues with streaming or replays.. but those were not turned into major lawsuits.

 

[TallyT]

For him, it's not only compensation but integrity of the work. That was the issue mentioned in the article I posted regarding Kevin Reynolds program which didn't meet the approval because the music editing was too much for the taste or Mr Hisaishi. I am sure I don't need to tell you what Hanyu needed to go through to get his program approved you probably already know

Oh yes, I know... but given what we ended up with in the truly astounding Hope and Legacy I think both Yuzuru and Hisaishi, who then approved One Summer's Day as a glorious show piece, would say the result was worth it Thing is as we who have watched the recent GP series (especially the rhythm dance) saw, all too many skating cuts run the full gamut from awful to omigodwhatthefreshhellisthisandwhatdiditjustdotomypoorbrain awful - sometimes in the same program. So while it's nice when composers are less strict, I can't actually blame anyone who is.

But I did feel for Kevin that was rough.

 

[Mathman]

It doesn't work like this. Skaters don't need to pay the artists nor the label for rights unless it's a very exceptional case.

The licensing is usually paid by the venues and/ or the event organizers.

So in the case of the Olympic Games it is the responsibilty of the deep-pocketted IOC or of the hosting nation? No wonder the offended artists sued for millions.

But I can certainly understand why an artist would not want his work carved up into a few minutes of background acccompaniment for a gamut of athletic tricks. In that case, better for everyone involved if the skater makes a different choice.

 

[Magill]

Oh yes, I know... but given what we ended up with in the truly astounding Hope and Legacy I think both Yuzuru and Hisaishi, who then approved One Summer's Day as a glorious show piece, would say the result was worth it Thing is as we who have watched the recent GP series (especially the rhythm dance) all too many skating cuts run the full gamut from awful to omigodwhatthefreshhellisthisandwhatdiditjustdotomypoorbrain awful - sometimes in the same program. So while it's nice when composers are less strict, I can't actually blame anyone who is.

But I did feel for Kevin that was rough.

Yes! You were faster than me to say that but yes! Whatever negotiations helped to bring about these two masterpieces, were fully worth it!

 

[TallyT]

I still think that with the advent of AI, we'll eventually steer to each piece of skating music being "original." As the technology improves, so will the product.

Still problems though, I have seen a few AI creators jumping up and down about the rights to their creations, which honestly takes a lot of gall but there you are.

Caveat: Simply asking might not work for a novice skater in the same way it worked for a World Champion.

I suspect that had the the band's music been used for OGM or WC performances, they would still have sued but been a little more circumspect about the usage being 'insulting' and a little louder about the financial benefits gained by the skate(s)...

 

[4everchan]

So in the case of the Olympic Games it is the responsibilty of the deep-pocketted IOC or of the hosting nation? No wonder the offended artists sued for millions.

But I can certainly understand why an artist would not want his work carved up into a few minutes of background acccompaniment for a gamut of athletic tricks. In that case, better for everyone involved if the skater makes a different choice.

I do not know the details of this case. Was the band part of a licensing entity? O games are considered a live performance. Who knows what the band was suing for and whom they were suing.

Your second paragraph is exactly why there are copyright laws, because people think that all artists would be happy not being paid for their work as long as they get exposure. Very infuriating if you ask me.

 

[Magill]

Oh yes, I know... but given what we ended up with in the truly astounding Hope and Legacy I think both Yuzuru and Hisaishi, who then approved One Summer's Day as a glorious show piece, would say the result was worth it Thing is as we who have watched the recent GP series (especially the rhythm dance) all too many skating cuts run the full gamut from awful to omigodwhatthefreshhellisthisandwhatdiditjustdotomypoorbrain awful - sometimes in the same program. So while it's nice when composers are less strict, I can't actually blame anyone who is.

But I did feel for Kevin that was rough.

Yes! You were faster than me to say that but yes! Whatever negotiations helped to bring about these two masterpieces, were fully worth it!

And of course there is also this version of One Summer's Day from GIFT when Haku was born on the ice and the name of Joe Hisaishi appeared on the screen

 

[Mathman]

Yes! You were faster than me to say that but yes! Whatever negotiations helped to bring about these two masterpieces, were fully worth it!

My computer screen is showing:

"THIS VIDEO IS UNAVAILABLE.
"This video contains content from NBC Universal, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds.

Being a law abiding person, I did not sign up for a VPN to circumvent U.S. and international law.

 

[Mathman]

Speaking of money, music and Alexa Knierim...

Dolly Parton reporetedly made US$ 20,000,000 off Whitney Houston's cover of "I will always love you."

Here are Alexa and Chris skating to ithe song. But they didn't have 20 million so they had to go with a Carrie Underwood cover of Whitney's cover..

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

 

[Magill]

My computer screen is showing:

"THIS VIDEO IS UNAVAILABLE.
"This video contains content from NBC Universal, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds.

Being a law abiding person, I did not sign up for a VPN to circumvent U.S. and international law.

This makes it very illustrative to the topic of the thread although not necessarily in the wholesome and desired way!
Still, I do think copyright works differently in different countries. Just like ISU competition streaming on YouTube is perfectly legal in most countries but often geoblocked in US. I guess this video from Worlds was copyrighted for US by NBC and it still holds, and they still block it, it seems.

 

[TallyT]

My computer screen is showing:

"THIS VIDEO IS UNAVAILABLE.
"This video contains content from NBC Universal, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds.

Which is... interesting, as the video linked was not NBC at all, but the Eurosport (BESP) broadcast! - and there are several copies of it online along with the ISU one, none of which appear to be blocked in the US. The NBC version of the same skate got taken down quite a while ago (I have a downloaded copy and no NBC I am not sorry I did it )

All of which shows that absolutely no one has the foggiest what they are doing.

 

[Magill]

Which is... interesting, as the video linked was not NBC at all, but the Eurosport (BESP) broadcast! - and there are several copies of it online along with the ISU one, none of which appear to be blocked in the US. The NBC version of the same skate got taken down quite a while ago (I have a downloaded copy and no NBC I am not sorry I did it )

All of which shows that absolutely no one has the foggiest what they are doing.

I guess they just used it as an excuse then to block Yuzu and push him out of the potential viewers range, ha ha !

 

[TallyT]

Actually, I do miss the seemingly brief time we used to have a smorgasbord of versions - the ISU one, NBC and CBC and maybe Australian and Olympic Channel and several Eurosport and foreign language ones and so on, plus no commentary ones - on youtube. Buenos Aires Hora Cero is my absolute favourite Shoma program, and I collected up quite a few for that and I'm glad because a lot have disappeared but I am also sorry I didn't download more before they did. I guess I was spoilt because this was the way it was when I became an fs fan as such, but these days the commentary ones don't even get put up as far as I can see (yes, I know a lot of people dislike them but hey I like to hear them tell me how wonderful my favourite skaters big and small are ) and the official ISU needs to be grabbed and kept even if you aren't sure if you are going to love the skater for long... because it will vanish before you make up your mind.

Ahem, sorry for the but I didn't start it! and I guess it is all part and parcel, another aspect of the same problem anyway...

 

[Kris135]

Actually, I do miss the seemingly brief time we used to have a smorgasbord of versions - the ISU one, NBC and CBC and maybe Australian and Olympic Channel and several Eurosport and foreign language ones and so on, plus no commentary ones - on youtube. Buenos Aires Hora Cero is my absolute favourite Shoma program, and I collected up quite a few for that and I'm glad because a lot have disappeared but I am also sorry I didn't download more before they did. I guess I was spoilt because this was the way it was when I became an fs fan as such, but these days the commentary ones don't even get put up as far as I can see (yes, I know a lot of people dislike them but hey I like to hear them tell me how wonderful my favourite skaters big and small are ) and the official ISU needs to be grabbed and kept even if you aren't sure if you are going to love the skater for long... because it will vanish before you make up your mind.

Ahem, sorry for the but I didn't start it! and I guess it is all part and parcel, another aspect of the same problem anyway

What strange though is how much of pre 2002 stuff is still up and pretty easy to access. I sometimes can find whole competition like 1992 Nationals both the men and women free skates. I understand that artists need to get paid but could we come up with a way to ensure access for fans as well. The only way skating is going to grow is for people to see more of it than every 4 years when the Olympics are on the TV. So could we find a way to allow replays so more people could find out about the sport and actually watch it

 

[4everchan]

What strange though is how much of pre 2002 stuff is still up and pretty easy to access. I sometimes can find whole competition like 1992 Nationals both the men and women free skates. I understand that artists need to get paid but could we come up with a way to ensure access for fans as well. The only way skating is going to grow is for people to see more of it than every 4 years when the Olympics are on the TV. So could we find a way to allow replays so more people could find out about the sport and actually watch it

Licenses were probably paid, especially since back then, TV broadcasters would deal with the rights to present events etc. Now with streaming, it's often small budget presentation and some people, most notably in the USA just do not bother paying the full licenses. That's why some competitions do not have a livestream... Again, Skate Canada has budgeted that item and that's why everything is available there on their dailymotion site.

You know, the artists get VERY little money from the licenses. It's really not that the artists want to get paid here. It's just that the law works like this. To present copyrighted material, you gotta pay for the blanket licenses... there is a difference between a live event, a streamed event, and also length for archives...

Different field and purpose altogether but just to give you an example : we made 3 video recordings available during 2020 when concerts were not possible for a specific organization. We had contracts with composers that allowed one year diffusion online. However, back when the recordings were done, we only had paid the professional singers a "concert fee". For streaming, we had to negotiate with their union, to get a one year authorization to broadcast the videos online. It was a strict one year deal. It was quite a lot of money, in this case going directly to the artists. As I said, different field. On top of that, we had already paid our Socan/EnTandem blanket license.

It is very easy when things like these get budgeted ahead of time. If organizers do not budget it, and then it comes as a surprise, then of course the reaction is to not make things available online because they don't want to get in trouble.

The KF case is an oddity. I don't want to speculate as I don't know any of the details but it's not happening to most skaters because people get their work done properly

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

I'm going to sound like a stuck record here, but copyright claims on YouTube videos (be it by music companies or TV companies) seem to have only become an issue since the ISU lifted the ban on vocals.

At the Tallinn Trophy recently, when the channel that did the streaming was cutting videos of the individual programmes, they were taking precautions to prevent the videos getting copyright claims placed on them. And the way they did it made it obvious in the clearest way possible that it is specifically vocals that is the problem.

Whenever we had programmes with vocals, the audio was getting either scrambled, or muted completely. But, it was only when there was vocals. When there was music in between the vocals, it was left so we could hear it. So, in most cases, the audio was going in and out throughout the video.

I used the word "scrambled", because that is what I thought it sounded like at the time. But, I think that they were using artificial intelligence to actually remove just the vocals, because you could hear the noise being made by the blades on the ice, and the applause (albeit muffled).

Boys but it sounded weird!

Instrumental programmes, meanwhile, were being left with the audio completely intact. (Well, there were a few occasions when the audio got muted when the skaters were waiting for their results, due to what was being played over the speakers in the arena in between programmes).

I first discovered this was happening because I left during the Advanced Novice Ladies SP to eat, and the channel doing the streaming was one that makes the streams private as soon as they finish broadcasting. So I couldn't just pause the stream and play catch-up, as it would cut out before I got to the end. And there were skaters that were on later that I specifically wanted to see. So for those skaters that were on when I was eating, I had to watch the individual videos the next day.

Here is something I commented while watching those videos:

I know a lot of people on here joke about muting music that they don't like. But when you lose the music, you lose an integral part of the programme. And, I have to be honest, I am finding that I am not enjoying the muted programmes. And I am not paying as much attention to them as I am to the intact ones, or even the scrambled ones.

CaroLiza_fan

If removing an integral part of a sport is the only way of making it available for people to watch, something has gone badly wrong. And something needs to be done to rectify it once and for all.

The ISU needs to admit that their plan to make figure skating more appealing for young people by allowing vocals has completely backfired, and has actually made it less accessible to all people due to all the copyright issues arising out of it.

I acknowledge that this was a problem that could not have been foreseen. But when it did start to happen, the ISU should have backtracked straight away and re-instated the ban on vocals. But, organisations do not like to admit that they were wrong. And everything they have done to try to bodge a solution in a way that does not admit they made a mistake has made the sport even harder for people to access.

We are now in the third Olympic Cycle where vocals are allowed, and the situation is getting even worse. It is past time for the ISU to swallow their pride and change it back. And it needs to be done as soon as possible.

I know the ISU don't like making major rule changes within an Olympic cycle. And they certainly do not like to do it at the start of an Olympic season. But that is exactly what needs to be done.

Although I personally don't like the Olympics, a lot of people do. And for a lot of people it is the only time they watch figure skating. If these people want to become familiar with the skaters that are likely to be challenging for medals in advance, they need to be able to see performances from earlier in the season. And as it stands, they will not be able to do that.

The sport is in a battle for survival. The ISU have had their heads buried in the sand for far too long. However much they don't want to do it, they need to act now and do the one thing that will stop most of the copyright claims. Banning vocals.

CaroLiza_fan