Was 2024 GPF evidence we are in the "jumping" era?

[Skating91]

The winner of the men's performed two programs had 8/10 jumping elements and 8/9 quads slapped with q's or underrotations, however in the SP the 4F should have been given a q mark as well so significant errors on 9/10 jumping elements. I don't think something like that has ever happened before.

The winner of the women's got the gold by just over three points on the back of two 3A's. In the short program, the officials on gave her the one q but they missed the q on the 3A, the two footed landing on the loop, the additional underrotation on the combo, wasn't given a deduction for her fall. I already posted photographic proof in another thread. By my estimation this should have cost her 6 to 11 points. The margin for gold was just over 3 points.

In the junior women, the winner who was the only one to attempt a quad, fell and was downgraded on it, 3A on the q, fell on a loop as well, however, the win was never in doubt took gold by 8 points due to a big BV advantage (she took a big hit in warm up as well how many of these hits does she take in training I thought new rules was supposed to stop this unnecessary pressure to risk injury). Ironically the one skater in that competition who was clean apart from a not clear edge call got equal lowest PCS by quite a margin .

It is just my opinion, but we did not see a figure skating final but a figure jumping final. What's more, the best figure jumpers did not win because they won despite cheating on many of their jumps. Instead results went to the figure jumpers who train not to skate a clean and cohesive program free of interruption, but only train specific jumps with high BV to artificially lift their scores above the figure skaters who aim to skate clean programs. It is merely a difference in philosophy. The skaters/jumpers did not devise the rules. The jumpers and their coaches are not doing anything wrong, it is their job to understand the rules then exploit any loopholes.

What can be done to stop this, because I don't think the sport has seen anything like we witnessed over the weekend. I appreciate the jumpers who push the sport forward with their high value jumps, but not at the complete expense of skating.

I hope this is a big wake up call for the sport with the Olympics just 14 months away. I fear for the sport if this is what we'll see in the Olympic finals.

What can be changed to put the balance more towards skating rather than pure jumping?

 

[ladyjane]

It's only in the Single's that the programmes become more jumping than skating. There is a good balance in pairs (an SBS combi/sequence, an SBS jump, and 2 throw jumps and that's it) and there are no jumps at all in ID (except perhaps for a simple jump or an assisted simple jump with choreo). I also admire the jumpers, but would like to see more real skating - glide, step sequences, etc. I am always happy to see guys like Amoz , Brown and Vasiljevs who make so much more of the programmes than just jumping. Kagiyama is also on a good road in that aspect.

In pairs there is some playing around with the type of jumps, but good skaters and lifters can get high scores with easier but landed jumps and level 4 lifts and spins. The quad throw, though admirable, has not been taken up due to the lowering of the BV in points of that throw. Perhaps the BV of jumps (and especially 4-jumps) should be lowered again? Obviously then you get complaints that difficulty doesn't get rewarded.....

 

[museksk8r]

I don’t think so. Otherwise, the Georgian pair would have beaten the Japanese pair here. Also, Shaidorov would have medaled instead of finishing 5th. The reality is if Kagiyama had skated up to his potential, he would have easily beaten the shoddy performance Malinin delivered in the FS despite Yuma having such a deficit in base value compared to Ilia. When a skater falls, the judges are required by the rulebook to mark down their PCS as well. Sadly, Yuma made too many mistakes here; I was really pulling for him to win, but I definitely understand why he didn’t. Do I think it’s ridiculous that Malinin receives high 9s and 10s for PCS? Absolutely, 100%! He is receiving the reigning world champion PCS bonus and it certainly helped him that A) Kagiyama skating before him had made a major error by falling on the 4Salchow in the SP and B) a healthy Adam Siao Him Fa was absent from this event. Apparently, Malinin’s style of skating does check off the bullet points in the rule book that the judges use to judge this sport. However, I think the judges still prefer a Shcherbakova over a Trusova. The most clean and more complete skater with the better skating skills, transitions and presentation will still usually win over the skater who throws in everything and the kitchen sink, but is messy while doing it. I believe the judges prefer to see a well-rounded performance with attention paid to all aspects of skating, not just the jumps.

Every single skater in the women’s event had their own issues in the SP. While one could debate that Mone had the cleaner skate, I can’t ignore that her musical interpretation of her SP makes her presentation come across very juniorish and her PCS should be marked lower for that and I spotted the rotation issue on her 3flip in real time. Amber only beat her by a smidge in the SP, so the point spread was not egregious. Amber should absolutely get credit for attempting all of her 3Axels at the age of 25 and she has such a high success rate with that jump. I fully understand how her currently being the only woman in the world successfully landing an ultra C jump is boosting her reputation with the judges. Add to that how significantly she has improved her consistency compared to prior years and the fact that she presents herself with maturity, speed, command, and her programs are loaded with complex transitions, I clearly see why she is winning. I have believed for the past 5 years that she would be a champion if she ever figured out the mental game of the sport and gained consistency. Her progress this season has been absolutely remarkable. As she has said, there is still room for improvement and she has said that she’s not fully satisfied with her performances. If she were to compete the way she practices, she would always be scoring in the 79-80 range in the SP and in the mid-150s range in the FS. It’s clear she wishes to improve in the most sensible ways possible to preserve her physical and mental health and the sport needs athletes like her, Kaori, and Wakaba, like Michelle, Carolina, and Joannie before them, to prove that your skating career doesn’t need to end at the age of 18.

 

[throw_triple_flip]

The winner of the men's performed two programs had 8/10 jumping elements and 8/9 quads slapped with q's or underrotations, however in the SP the 4F should have been given a q mark as well so significant errors on 9/10 jumping elements. I don't think something like that has ever happened before.

The winner of the women's got the gold by just over three points on the back of two 3A's. In the short program, the officials on gave her the one q but they missed the q on the 3A, the two footed landing on the loop, the additional underrotation on the combo, wasn't given a deduction for her fall. I already posted photographic proof in another thread. By my estimation this should have cost her 6 to 11 points. The margin for gold was just over 3 points.

In the junior women, the winner who was the only one to attempt a quad, fell and was downgraded on it, 3A on the q, fell on a loop as well, however, the win was never in doubt took gold by 8 points due to a big BV advantage (she took a big hit in warm up as well how many of these hits does she take in training I thought new rules was supposed to stop this unnecessary pressure to risk injury). Ironically the one skater in that competition who was clean apart from a not clear edge call got equal lowest PCS by quite a margin .

It is just my opinion, but we did not see a figure skating final but a figure jumping final. What's more, the best figure jumpers did not win because they won despite cheating on many of their jumps. Instead results went to the figure jumpers who train not to skate a clean and cohesive program free of interruption, but only train specific jumps with high BV to artificially lift their scores above the figure skaters who aim to skate clean programs. It is merely a difference in philosophy. The skaters/jumpers did not devise the rules. The jumpers and their coaches are not doing anything wrong, it is their job to understand the rules then exploit any loopholes.

What can be done to stop this, because I don't think the sport has seen anything like we witnessed over the weekend. I appreciate the jumpers who push the sport forward with their high value jumps, but not at the complete expense of skating.

I hope this is a big wake up call for the sport with the Olympics just 14 months away. I fear for the sport if this is what we'll see in the Olympic finals.

What can be changed to put the balance more towards skating rather than pure jumping?

Regarding rotations- you're not looking at the same replays as the technical panel and you're not sat where they are sat. Things can look very different from another angle and from their point of view those may have been the correct calls.

 

[lariko]

You wish!!! I would have loved nothing more. If the era was truly pro-jumping, the podium in men would have looked:

Malinin, Grassl, Shaidorov

and in women:

Glenn, Yoshida, Chiba

and in pairs:

Hase/V, Met/Beru... ???

 

[throw_triple_flip]

In singles skating, when I see a well performed, beautiful, complex (usually choreographed by Lori Nicol) level 4 step sequence I do think it's a crying shame that the base value of that is so low in comparison to quad jumps.

There needs to be a rethink on that, I feel. In Pairs, it's not really an issue. Though maybe changing base values isn't the answer, perhaps it's changing how the GOE is factored or something like that?

 

[Mathman]

I thinj that we have always been in the "jumping era." That is, the progression in this direction has been steady and constant throughout the history of the competitive sport. Just looking at the ladies:

Very early 1900s. Charlotte Oelschlagel perfects the (single) Axel into Charlotte spiral move.

1953. Carol Heiss becomes the first lady to do a double Axel. She also did Axel-Axel-Axel-Axel sequence, alternating directions.

1988. Midori Ito. First triple Axel. 1989, first lady to do all siix triples toe, Sal, loop, flip, Lutz, Axel at the World Championship.

I do not think it is possible to put the genie back in the bottle. Some time around the year 2050 a little girl, as yet unborn, will be reading the ISU Scale of Values and come across: “4A, 1250 points. Choreograph step sequence, 3.5 points.” She confronts her coach – “Why didn’t you tell me about this?!”)

 

[lesnar001]

I do not think it is possible to put the genie back in the bottle. Some time around the year 2050 a little girl, as yet unborn, will be reading the ISU Scale of Values and come across: “4A, 1250 points. Choreograph step sequence, 3.5 points.” She confronts her coach – “Why didn’t you tell me about this?!”)

 

[eppen]

Historically speaking, the free program these days has less jumps than ever. In the 1970s, when triples started to emerge as a staple, most men did 10-15 jump passes in the free, some even closer to 20. In the early 1980s, the number of jumps in the free settled to 8, sometimes 9 probably mostly as a result of the Zayak rules. That was the norm recorded in the IJS rules for the 4 min 30 s free. Now we are down to 7 jumps, so skaters are jumping less than ever before.

Since the significance of the compulsory figures started to get lower, jumps became a deciding factor for the outcome of the competitions. There are fewer mistakes in spins or steps, but a fall or even a stumble in landing could cost a podium finish or a win. Consequently, few attempted anything too ambitious until the late 1990s/early 2000s before IJS when there was a brief moment of lots of things happening in jumps. This development was halted by the strictness of early IJS on jumps only to return with the changes in rules in 2010 which started to reward risk and jump complexity resulting in what we see today.

The current philosophy of the rules and judging is a combination of valuing risk-taking but also rewarding good quality. The more complete skater with good quality usually ends up on top of the podium rather than the one with only jumps or even relatively good elements (eg the junior girl who jumped fine but did not get good pcs). You can have an ambitious layout and super high BV but if you are not able to perform it all reasonably well, it will not give you advantage. The BV on its own is not enough to win, you need a final TES high with postive GOEs and a reasonably good PCSs to be on top.

I sometimes wonder how Timothy Goebel would have fared now compared to the late 1990s when his jumping ability was a big thing - he really did not have much else beyond the jumps but he ended up getting lots of medals. I don't think he would have done very well today. Another extreme example is Trusova who had gazillion jumps, some even with good quality, but she never won anything of significance because the other girls with less tech difficulty but more quality and everything else could beat her easily. There are those skaters who don't seem to be very interested (or capable?) in cultivating every aspect of their sport, but that does not take them very far.

I think most skaters go on ice aiming at a flawless skate at whatever their personal level is. Sometimes it works, sometimes it does not. When it comes to introducing more difficult content, the first times are often flawed, but you have to start somewhere.

None of the guys was spot on at Grenoble, but Ilia's extreme risk taking in the free - the historical first ever all 6 quads in one program and first ever 7 quad layout - with a relatively good outcome together with a good short gave him the win this time. Yuma could have won had he not fallen in the short - he lost possibly even 10 points with it after all.

Ilia could also have fallen multiple times or had even more serious rotation issues with all the quads in his free. He does not have the best skating skills but has good spins and ok step sequences. Also, because he is good jumper, he actually tends to have more choreo between the jumps than a lot of those jumpings less quads (or even no quads at all).

E

 

[Joekaz]

The winner of the men's performed two programs had 8/10 jumping elements and 8/9 quads slapped with q's or underrotations, however in the SP the 4F should have been given a q mark as well so significant errors on 9/10 jumping elements. I don't think something like that has ever happened before.

The winner of the women's got the gold by just over three points on the back of two 3A's. In the short program, the officials on gave her the one q but they missed the q on the 3A, the two footed landing on the loop, the additional underrotation on the combo, wasn't given a deduction for her fall. I already posted photographic proof in another thread. By my estimation this should have cost her 6 to 11 points. The margin for gold was just over 3 points.

In the junior women, the winner who was the only one to attempt a quad, fell and was downgraded on it, 3A on the q, fell on a loop as well, however, the win was never in doubt took gold by 8 points due to a big BV advantage (she took a big hit in warm up as well how many of these hits does she take in training I thought new rules was supposed to stop this unnecessary pressure to risk injury). Ironically the one skater in that competition who was clean apart from a not clear edge call got equal lowest PCS by quite a margin .

It is just my opinion, but we did not see a figure skating final but a figure jumping final. What's more, the best figure jumpers did not win because they won despite cheating on many of their jumps. Instead results went to the figure jumpers who train not to skate a clean and cohesive program free of interruption, but only train specific jumps with high BV to artificially lift their scores above the figure skaters who aim to skate clean programs. It is merely a difference in philosophy. The skaters/jumpers did not devise the rules. The jumpers and their coaches are not doing anything wrong, it is their job to understand the rules then exploit any loopholes.

What can be done to stop this, because I don't think the sport has seen anything like we witnessed over the weekend. I appreciate the jumpers who push the sport forward with their high value jumps, but not at the complete expense of skating.

I hope this is a big wake up call for the sport with the Olympics just 14 months away. I fear for the sport if this is what we'll see in the Olympic finals.

What can be changed to put the balance more towards skating rather than pure jumping?

Being stricter on excessive pre rotation and proper form on takeoffs would eliminate alot of issues with the women. If proper form would be enforced you would see 90 percent (at least) of the girls doing 3/2 s instead of 3/3s.

 

[Minz]

Being stricter on excessive pre rotation and proper form on takeoffs would eliminate alot of issues with the women. If proper form would be enforced you would see 90 percent (at least) of the girls doing 3/2 s instead of 3/3s.

As much as it’s a nice idea for everyone to have “perfect technique” - whatever you define that to be, the judges can still barely call URs correctly half the time and they’ve had about 20 years of IJS for that.

So I don’t think that trying to add pre-rotation into the mix is going to help things, especially since some jumps can/do use a minimal amount of pre-rotation even with good technique.

 

[Joekaz]

There

As much as it’s a nice idea for everyone to have “perfect technique” - whatever you define that to be, the judges can still barely call URs correctly half the time and they’ve had about 20 years of IJS for that.

So I don’t think that trying to add pre-rotation into the mix is going to help things, especially since some jumps can/do use a minimal amount of pre-rotation even with good technique.

I didn't say perfect, I said good. On a lutz or flip that would be solid front toe pick and no more than 1/4 turn pre-rotation. Its very obvious on even a single replay. Just watch Wakaba compared to Kaori or Amber and it looks like completely different jumps.

 

[Minz]

There I didn't say perfect, I said good. On a lutz or flip that would be solid front toe pick and no more than 1/4 turn pre-rotation. It’s very obvious on even a single replay. Just watch Wakaba compared to Kaori or Amber and it looks like completely different jumps.

Nothing is obvious to the ISU, that’s what I’m saying.

I don’t disagree that solid jump technique should be rewarded more, but I just don’t know how that can realistically be achieved given what we’ve seen from the judges.

 

[Joekaz]

Nothing is obvious to the ISU, that’s what I’m saying.

I don’t disagree that solid jump technique should be rewarded more, but I just don’t know how that can realistically be achieved given what we’ve seen from the judges.

The problem with the ISU is that they want women to do 3/3s even if they can't, to make it look like the sport is advancing. That's why they don't crack down on the takeoff. But logically it makes no sense to be strict on rotation on landings if your letting them cheat on rotation on take off. That's why Hanyu recommended sensors to measure the rotation in the air. I do agree that the biggest problem is that ISU judging usually has very little correlation to reality on the ice though.

 

[Skating91]

There I didn't say perfect, I said good. On a lutz or flip that would be solid front toe pick and no more than 1/4 turn pre-rotation. Its very obvious on even a single replay. Just watch Wakaba compared to Kaori or Amber and it looks like completely different jumps.

I don't know how they miss these things with certain skaters like Kaori with her lutz. Yes, she is the best in the ISU and I want to her to in 4 in a row so not hating on her (she's really the only hope left), but the lutz needs to be punished with a wrong edge everytime. She makes no attempt to correct this jump. The tech panel obviously aren't stupid people to navigate their way through all the politics at the ISU to be selected for the technical panel, so it can only be one other thing. They're blatantly favouring some skaters over others. Kim in senior women or Yihan in the junior female final they come down hard on them for anything less than ideal. Then skaters like Shaidorov, or M/B just forget about it.

 

[lariko]

Historically speaking, the free program these days has less jumps than ever.

Louder, please, for people in the back.

And, I want in particular to underline that Malinin's Step Sequence was level 3, while Kagiyama's was level 2, with maximum attainable level being 4. Malinin, while carrying a huge jumping load versus Kagiyama still beat him on steps too.

 

[lariko]

Another extreme example is Trusova who had gazillion jumps, some even with good quality, but she never won anything of significance because the other girls with less tech difficulty but more quality and everything else could beat her easily. There are those skaters who don't seem to be very interested (or capable?) in cultivating every aspect of their sport, but that does not take them very far.

Alexandra Ignatova-Trusova is Olympic silver medallist (individual), World Bronze medallist, and Junior World Champion and GP champion. There is plenty women skaters who never achieved anything even close to these titles. And a some of these would have been higher if certain test results came back earlier, because one of her competitors was not playing fair during the most important season they had.

Als, for one season, Trusova skated with a single quad, squeezing out every ounce of performance and the PCSs, and it didn't change her results at all. So, good for her doing what she sincerely enjoyed after that.

 

[Ziotic]

You wish!!! I would have loved nothing more. If the era was truly pro-jumping, the podium in men would have looked:

Malinin, Grassl, Shaidorov

and in women:

Glenn, Yoshida, Chiba

and in pairs:

Hase/V, Met/Beru... ???

That men’s podium is my nightmare.

 

[noskates]

I guess I didn't realize we ever left the jumping era......

 

[Skating91]

Alexandra Ignatova-Trusova is Olympic silver medallist (individual), World Bronze medallist, and Junior World Champion and GP champion. There is plenty women skaters who never achieved anything even close to these titles. And a some of these would have been higher if certain test results came back earlier, because one of her competitors was not playing fair during the most important season they had.

Als, for one season, Trusova skated with a single quad, squeezing out every ounce of performance and the PCSs, and it didn't change her results at all. So, good for her doing what she sincerely enjoyed after that.

Let's have some perspective here.

Trusova in the last event she competed at (2022 Olympics) needed to score 255.95 to win gold, but only scored 251.73.

Trusova to have won the 2024 GP Final would have only needed score 212.07.

Not to mention that in the 2022 Olympics there was no sequence rule so less free points like there are now.

Some silver medals are worth more than some gold medals.

At the 2022 Olympics, being a figure jumper wasn't enough.