Is the interaction between competitive skating and show skating still mutually beneficial?

[Ic3Rabbit]

Can you tell about you experience of combining the sports and show skating? For many readers of this thread (including me), it could give a better picture of how it works

Combining the sports? Competitive and Pro skating are both the same sport--figure skating.

 

[Anna K.]

Combining the sports? Competitive and Pro skating are both the same sport--figure skating.

Corrections done:

Can you tell about you experience of combining the Competitive and Pro skating? For many readers of this thread (including me), it could give a better picture of how it works

 

[TallyT]

Show skating does also give them more experience in front of audiences because when you think about it, competitive skating just by itself actually doesn't involve much of this at all.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Pro skating and show skating are two overlapping terms but they aren't synonymous. Pros are retired from competing and the type of work my pro friends do mostly involves formal contracts with companies that require a fair amount of time commitment (e.g. a skater might expect to tour with Royal Caribbean/Holiday on Ice/Disney on Ice for months).

Both pros and active competitive skaters can perform in more short-term gigs (e.g. Art on Ice, Stars on Ice), but this type of work is a lot easier to balance with a competitive skating schedule. They're not touring and performing daily for extended date ranges. I have less personal knowledge of this show format, but from what I can see the competitive skaters often bring/re-use their own gala pieces and don't generally need to do a lot of complex ensemble work (which would require more rehearsal time to learn new choreography).

Pros on here, feel free to correct/clarify as needed!

 

[Mathman]

To the original question: YES!

I think that this is certainly true. The best and most successful competitors at the national or especially international levels will always be the most sought after when it comes to assembling casts for shows.

In fact it is hard to think of anyone (setting aside Charlotte Oelschlagel from the first decade of the 1900s) who became an entertainment superstar without first honing his/her skills in competition and acquiring recognition at the amateur level. I suppose the exception might be comedy or novelty acts, like Frick and Frack, or, from the days od Champions on Ice, the ice acrobats Besedin and Polishuk and the hula hoop girl Irina Gregorian.

Fying Feijoa]...The type of work my pro friends do mostly involves formal contracts with companies (like cruise lines and Disney on Ice) that require a fair amount of time commitment.

I wonder what kind of skating credentials, experience, competitive medals, etc. are expected for such gigs? Do they just show ip for a tryout?

 

[Mathman]

Show skating does also give them more experience in front of audiences because when you think about it, competitive skating just by itself actually doesn't involve much of this at all.

I think it depends on the skater. Some of the top competitpors (Adam SHF, Eloena Hendrickx, many ice dancers) put a lot of thought and effort into performing for the audience.

I think that Yuzuru Hanyu in his competitive days was quite aware of the audience, although his on-ice personality was more along the lines of inviting the audience into his world rather than seeking their attention and approval.

In fact, the first question that jumped into my mind when Anna K started this thread was... I wonder which path figure skating in Japan will take going forward, Right now Hanyu is bigger in Japan that figure skating is, in terms of the enthusiasm of supporters, or so it seems. This can't last forever. (right? )

 

[TallyT]

I think it depends on the skater. Some of the top competitpors (Adam SHF, Eloena Hendrickx, many ice dancers) put a lot of thought and effort into performing for the audience.

Oh I didn't mean in thought and care and such, and I'm sorry that it came over that way, I'm well aware that many skaters put a lot into that.

I meant purely in time and experience spent learning what it means and what works in front of a real audience. Put it together, short and free is less than seven minutes (okay, maybe we can add gala and if the skater is reeeeaally stretching it the warmup) per competition. And how many competitions does an elite skater, even at the very top, do per year? (I am not btw suggesting the programs should be longer at each competition even if I disagreed with cutting the free at the time; ours is an insanely demanding sport physically and the amount of time they spend training and practising is jawdropping.) Shows and such give the skaters that experience, even if/when they don't maximise their athletic capabilities in shows. It's another skill to learn.

 

[Magill]

I think that Yuzuru Hanyu in his competitive days was quire aware of the audience, although his on-ice personality was more along the lines of inviting the audience into his world rather than seeking their attention and approval.

In fact, the first question that jumped into my mind when Anna K started this thread was... I wonder which path figure skating in Japan will take going forward, Right now Hanyu is bigger in Japan that figure skating is, in terms of the enthusiasm of supporters, or so it seems. This can't last forever. (right? )

Forever is a long and ambitious perspective indeed
Still, no reason why it should not last as long as he is active in the shows and grow into a legend afterwards. His popularity is still growing which is amazing when you think how popular he was at his competitive days to start with, and he's obviously developing and growing on the creative and production sides, too. Reviews for each new of his ice stories are even more enthusiastic than for the previous one, new and bigger sponsors appear every several months and he seems to have found a way for his shows into the Chinese market which is deep and vast. His formula for shows is unique and both the public and the experts obviously love it. He surely still is in a league of his own, and even more so than ever.
The main limitation I can see is his physical ability to go on like this as he's growing older and physical demands of what he does are huge. Still with this kind of popularity, there are so many ways for him to decrease his physical burden by adapting his formula for the shows, and still stay at the top as long as the love of the public goes.
But you're right, it is interesting what impact it might have on the further development of the ice show market and the competitive sport, if any

 

[Flying Feijoa]

I wonder what kind of skating credentials, experience, competitive medals, etc. are expected for such gigs? Do they just show ip for a tryout?

Depends on the company but auditions are quite important. Competitive results don't necessarily translate to an aptitude for performing. For instance, good jumpers with weaker skating skills might get decent scores overall in competition but could struggle with picking up specified choreography. People who can land 3T in a small rink with dim lighting are more useful than people with all types of triples who need the length of an Olympic rink to set the jumps up.

 

[synesthesia]

On Kazuki: aside from his performance skills I also think he's a skater with a lot more experience and show performances in comparison to the younger skaters. His Worlds 2018 performance was the catalyst: he's been almost always appearing in PIW, DOI and The Ice every year after, before scoring the Fantasy on Ice invite as well as the Ice Explosion / Kassouya / Hyoen invites / casting. I think the younger skaters just don't have those kind of opportunities yet, and many of them came into prominence right during the pandemic, making it hard for the fans to see them live and connect with them emotionally.

Older skaters have of course had more time to hone their skills and make a name for themselves than the “new kids”, but what is great about Japan’s flourishing ice show market – and I elaborate on what you have already accurately touched on in the last paragraph of post #13 – is that nowadays (at least for the last 15-20 years) there are so many performance opportunities (aside from the slump during the pandemic) – even for skaters, who have either not yet made it to or never reached the upper echelons competitively. Even if it often helps to have competitive results and/or the right connections (e.g. being part of the Kinoshita Academy with their annual Bloom on Ice shows), in many cases an innate talent for performance is an even more important key to being "discovered"/noticed and hired – Kazuki, Koshiro Shimada and Kosho Oshima are examples of this. Even before 2018, Kazuki was invited to the Kobe Charity shows (held 2011-15), where several other young upcoming skaters also performed before becoming household names, e.g. Kaori Sakamoto (13), Mai Mihara (14), Koshiro Shimada (13), Sena Miyake (12) or Satoko Miyahara (15).

Friends on Ice has always featured very young, not yet well known skaters (e.g. Rika Hongo (10) in 2006) along with big domestic and international names. The Nagoya fs festival invites up-and-coming local talent. Skaters like Satoko (15), Shoma (15) and Sota (13) got to perform alongside the Japanese skating stars in the Japan Super Challenge before entering the senior circuit.

With the newer generation of shows since 2017 there have been even more performance opportunities for young and/or less decorated skaters. Shows like Mao’s tours, Hyoen, One Piece on Ice and Kassouya rely significantly on younger, not (yet) well-known skaters and/or lesser-known professional performers (often belonging to the PIW ensemble). Hyoen cast kid skaters Rio Nakata (10), Konosuke Ichikawa and Yurina Kino in prominent roles in 2019. The 2024 production prominently featured 10 kids from the MF Academy. Ice Explosion invited Sumitada Moriguchi as well as Nao Kida and Masaya Morita in 2023.

Kassouya encourages young competitive skaters (the youngest Kassouya ensemble member, Yurina Okuno, was 16 during the show’s first run) to develop their performance skills in and beyond show skating, since the selection of the majority of the cast was/is based directly on the skaters' performances (not the results) at Sectionals. As we could see from the reactions of the selected skaters, the fact that they were handpicked by Daisuke Takahashi, who so many of them look up to, had the opportunity to learn from him first-hand during the intensive rehearsal process and then perform with him, seems to be a great incentive to take the performance aspect seriously. As I mentioned in the Kassouya thread, many cast members such as Kazuki Tomono, Sena Miyake, Yuna Aoki, Maria Egawa, Moa Iwano, Saki Miyake or Shunya Matsuoka spoke effusively about the impact their participation in the show had on their attitude towards skating and performing in front of an audience. Moa even said that her participation had rekindled her love for skating and inspired her to return to competitions.

To come back to the original question, I think this is a great example of a positive interaction/mutually beneficial relationship between show and competitive skating.

 

[rabidline]

Even before 2018, Kazuki was invited to the Kobe Charity shows (held 2011-15), where several other young upcoming skaters also performed before becoming household names, e.g. Kaori Sakamoto (13), Mai Mihara (14), Koshiro Shimada (13), Sena Miyake (12) or Satoko Miyahara (15).

Friends on Ice has always featured very young, not yet well known skaters (e.g. Rika Hongo (10) in 2006) along with big domestic and international names. The Nagoya fs festival invites up-and-coming local talent. Skaters like Satoko (15), Shoma (15) and Sota (13) got to perform alongside the Japanese skating stars in the Japan Super Challenge before entering the senior circuit.

The Ice as well! It's how I can always brag that I've seen Rino Matsuike live (and 2019 Rino was so damn fabulous!) even Yuma Kagiyama had his "big" ice show debut there in 2019 IIRC when they went to Niigata

 

[Mathman]

Is Mao Asada still active in shows?

 

[Leocadia]

Is Mao Asada still active in shows?

She had her Beyond tour in 2022-2023, then another show called Everlasting33 in June.
She also participated in Friends on Ice last summer, and she’s scheduled to appear in Stars on Ice Japan, I think.

 

[KiraraChin]

Kassouya encourages young competitive skaters (the youngest Kassouya ensemble member, Yurina Okuno, was 16 during the show’s first run) to develop their performance skills in and beyond show skating, since the selection of the majority of the cast was/is based directly on the skaters' performances (not the results) at Sectionals. As we could see from the reactions of the selected skaters, the fact that they were handpicked by Daisuke Takahashi, who so many of them look up to, had the opportunity to learn from him first-hand during the intensive rehearsal process and then perform with him, seems to be a great incentive to take the performance aspect seriously. As I mentioned in the Kassouya thread, many cast members such as Kazuki Tomono, Sena Miyake, Yuna Aoki, Maria Egawa, Moa Iwano, Saki Miyake or Shunya Matsuoka spoke effusively about the impact their participation in the show had on their attitude towards skating and performing in front of an audience. Moa even said that her participation had rekindled her love for skating and inspired her to return to competitions.

Kosho Oshima said that Kassouya made him re-evaluate his whole skating life. As a student skater who was expected to retire and get a 'real job' after graduation, he said participating in the show made him realise he really, really loves skating.

Just recently he announced he will continue competing for at least one year after graduation, and he will try his hardest to get to represent Japan abroad

 

[rabidline]

As we could see from the reactions of the selected skaters, the fact that they were handpicked by Daisuke Takahashi, who so many of them look up to, had the opportunity to learn from him first-hand during the intensive rehearsal process and then perform with him, seems to be a great incentive to take the performance aspect seriously.

Daisuke actually goes in person to both the East and West Japan Sectionals to scout skaters for Kassouya. And I think that adds another "yes" to the tally of whether it's mutually beneficial or not, in a more direct way. Competitions are a way for the casting director to scout and shows are a way for the competitive skaters to polish their performance ability and gain more knowledge and awareness on how to work as a show skater.

Although that seems to be limited to Japan only. One Piece on Ice was 100% Japanese skaters (as opposed to Prism on Ice which had Evgenia Medvedeva as Usagi and Andrew Poje as Tuxedo Mask). Mao Asada (through her Thanks Tour, BEYOND and Everlasting33 shows) and Daisuke Takahashi (through Kassouya) were/are both committing to cast mostly Japanese or Japan-based foreign skaters for their "troupes" (Daisuke has talked about wanting to start a company of skaters), eliminating the need for foreign skaters to fill in as ensemble skaters for their own ice shows. Although Mao has re-signed with IMG so that can be an opening for international connections to be made again.

Adding to what @KiraraChin said: Saki Miyake also broke Top 10 again at 2024 Japanese Nationals after her 2019 finish, and she has given a big credit to Kassouya and Daisuke for casting her and giving her a chance.

 

[Wynter]

Exhibition/show skating is a mandatory part of every skater's career, which is understandable considering that it used to be a true goldmine in the past. But is it still? Given that demands of both the sport (the season is longer; the competition is tougher) and stadium-filling shows (i.e. the level of top productions of Cirque du Solei)) are rising rapidly, can we still take for granted that this interaction is mutually beneficial? Taking a break from shows can help an athlete to prepare better for competitions and earn better prize money. On the other hand, better shows require performers who are better actors and/or can better work as a team, which doesn't necessarily mean that they have the best sport achievements.

What do you think? Are competitive skating and sports skating still working hand-in-hand and developing in the same direction or are they taking separate directions and attracting different segments of public?

The show skating in the past is very different with the show skating in present. In the past, skaters will join the show skating after they spent years in competitive skating, giving time for them to build their resume and public recognition. Since skaters from that time cannot do show skating while competing, their competitive career and show career did not overlap. They can only make money in their show skating era.

Even back then, there will be difference in terms of how a skater can get the money during the show skating era. @Mathman said, Janet Lynn in 1973 was the highest-paid female athlete in the world even without an OGM and World title. Meanwhile, Shizuka Arakawa said that her 2004 WC title didn't give her much increase in her ice show payment--that was partially the reason why she stayed until 2006. Her payment increase 'much' only after her 2006 OGM. I sincerely think that arrangement is applicable in Japan even today. (BTW, Makabe, FAOI's producer, shared in one of his talk shows in 2023 or so, that Yuzuru's fee for FAOI was 100,000,000 yen (USD 640,000). Much higher than the competitive prize shared in the video linked by @Anna K.)

But then, given the current situation for ice show market (I can explain this in more detail if anyone wants to know), show skating opportunity will not be available for all competing skaters. The Japanese skaters are in luck because there are many shows in their country. Nevertheless, this opportunity is not available to all Japanese skaters.

To answer your question: Is show skating is a mandatory part of every skater career still? I would say no. It mostly depends on which career path they'll choose later on. Skaters who love to perform like Yuzu or Kazuki will go for ice show skating, skaters who choose career outside of skating will not necessarily do it unless they want the money. After all, skaters are doing what they can to offset the cost of the training and competing and it doesn't have to be show skating.

If you look at the current situation in Japan, you'll notice that Yuma Kagiyama has very limited ice shows performances. Instead, he has many company sponsors. He is one of the 'luckier' ones though. Some skaters (including Kaori Sakamoto, the 3x World Champion) has limited ice show performances AND limited company sponsors. You have Shoma Uno, who seems to have the most ice shows performances out of all Japanese skaters and limited company sponsors. Then you have Yuzuru Hanyu, who has moderate ice show performances and many company sponsors. Each strategy has its own pros and cons, of course.

 

[KiraraChin]

If you look at the current situation in Japan, you'll notice that Yuma Kagiyama has very limited ice shows performances. Instead, he has many company sponsors. He is one of the 'luckier' ones though. Some skaters (including Kaori Sakamoto, the 3x World Champion) has limited ice show performances AND limited company sponsors. You have Shoma Uno, who seems to have the most ice shows performances out of all Japanese skaters and limited company sponsors. Then you have Yuzuru Hanyu, who has moderate ice show performances and many company sponsors. Each strategy has its own pros and cons, of course.

I think it's hard to evaluate the sponsors thing because quantity is not the same as quality.

If you think, for example, Shoma has relatively few sponsors but they are all top sponsors that give him very high visibility, such as Mizuno and Toyota. Or you can think of Kazuki who has relatively few sponsors but they do go above and beyond to promote him with events, marketing campaigns and even launching a whole brand of curry with his name.

Yuma, on the other hand, has a lot of sponsors but I don't personally see him doing a lot with them. I know he does a Colantotte annual talk show (like Shoma), and I've seen him doing some stuff with Nojima but that's it. Ah, and there was a partnership with an AI company that sounded pretty much like crowdfunding...

So yeah, we don't know what's the deal each skater has with sponsors. Kaori might be pretty happy with Sysmex and not particularly fussed about getting other sponsors.

Also, the motivation to do show skating might not be entirely financial - it's usually a fun time for them, and an opportunity to try new things and new programmes.

 

[Magill]

But then, given the current situation for ice show market (I can explain this in more detail if anyone wants to know), show skating opportunity will not be available for all competing skaters.

Thank you for this whole very interesting post and, yes, please share in more detail what you have in mind, I'm sure I'm not the only one here curious to know.

 

[Wynter]

I think it's hard to evaluate the sponsors thing because quantity is not the same as quality.

If you think, for example, Shoma has relatively few sponsors but they are all top sponsors that give him very high visibility, such as Mizuno and Toyota. Or you can think of Kazuki who has relatively few sponsors but they do go above and beyond to promote him with events, marketing campaigns and even launching a whole brand of curry with his name.

Yuma, on the other hand, has a lot of sponsors but I don't personally see him doing a lot with them. I know he does a Colantotte annual talk show (like Shoma), and I've seen him doing some stuff with Nojima but that's it. Ah, and there was a partnership with an AI company that sounded pretty much like crowdfunding...

So yeah, we don't know what's the deal each skater has with sponsors. Kaori might be pretty happy with Sysmex and not particularly fussed about getting other sponsors.

Also, the motivation to do show skating might not be entirely financial - it's usually a fun time for them, and an opportunity to try new things and new programmes.

It is hard to evaluate the quality of sponsorships because this information isn’t made public. That’s why I cannot explain it in detail.

But even so, I understand that big companies does not necessarily means big sponsorships. Similarly, big companies and big sponsorships don’t necessarily mean equal monetary value.

You mentioned Shoma’s Mizuno and Toyota as top sponsors that give him very high visibility. I disagree. Mizuno gives him high visibility, but does Toyota makes ads with him? AFAIK, no. They use him in their talkshow events instead. In Yuzu’s case, it’s his Ajinomoto sponsor. Ajinomoto is a huge company in Japan, but his involvement there is less than his (ex) Kose’s one.

The sponsorship value will differ based on the skaters as well. Say, Yuma’s Nojima, Shoma’s Mizuno, and Yuzu’s (recent) Haier and Aqua give them high visibility (the sponsors display their images in retail places). However, I am certain that out of all three Yuzu got highest payment. However, I don’t have data to confirm it so it is best to not go into details.

(And then there is skaters’ agency and their cut from the sponsorships as well. At the end, we don’t know for sure how much money these skaters got.)

As for skaters going to do show skating to have fun and try new things… I have to apologize first, but my opinion on this is a harsh one. I am not paying a premium price to go to an ice show and see skaters having fun (fun here being to tone it down, get relaxed, goofing around with other skaters) and trying new things. I am going to an ice show to see the best performance they are capable of. As Yuzu himself said, “People who came today might not be able to attend again. That is why I have to give my all every time.”

 

[KiraraChin]

It is hard to evaluate the quality of sponsorships because this information isn’t made public. That’s why I cannot explain it in detail.

But even so, I understand that big companies does not necessarily means big sponsorships. Similarly, big companies and big sponsorships don’t necessarily mean equal monetary value.

You mentioned Shoma’s Mizuno and Toyota as top sponsors that give him very high visibility. I disagree. Mizuno gives him high visibility, but does Toyota makes ads with him? AFAIK, no. They use him in their talkshow events instead. In Yuzu’s case, it’s his Ajinomoto sponsor. Ajinomoto is a huge company in Japan, but his involvement there is less than his (ex) Kose’s one.

The sponsorship value will differ based on the skaters as well. Say, Yuma’s Nojima, Shoma’s Mizuno, and Yuzu’s (recent) Haier and Aqua give them high visibility (the sponsors display their images in retail places). However, I am certain that out of all three Yuzu got highest payment. However, I don’t have data to confirm it so it is best to not go into details.

(And then there is skaters’ agency and their cut from the sponsorships as well. At the end, we don’t know for sure how much money these skaters got.)

As for skaters going to do show skating to have fun and try new things… I have to apologize first, but my opinion on this is a harsh one. I am not paying a premium price to go to an ice show and see skaters having fun (fun here being to tone it down, get relaxed, goofing around with other skaters) and trying new things. I am going to an ice show to see the best performance they are capable of. As Yuzu himself said, “People who came today might not be able to attend again. That is why I have to give my all every time.”

I also think the value of a sponsor might not be only strictly monetary: in this day and age, having a strong personal brand gives you a huge advantage, so an association with a famous brand (like Shoma/Toyota) or a sponsor who constantly hypes you up (like Kazuki/Daiichi Juken Group) is also hugely beneficial in the long term.

As for having fun, I wasn't talking about being goofy lol but perhaps trying a different style or moves they usually don't do in competition. That can be fun for a skater, and who knows? Maybe the experience can lead to something else. Also, you can try your best whilst doing a fun/entertaining number! Many say comedy is actually harder to do than drama.

I think in general shows are a useful space to express yourself without the confines of the competition rules, so I see how skaters might be attracted to that in addition to the money.