2025 U.S. Nationals Senior Men's Free Skate

[TontoK]

I for one am surprised and disappointed in the USFSA.

Jason is my favorite current men's skater, by far. His performances are the only ones I ever rewatch after a competoititon is over. He is the only skater who piques my interest season after season -- what music will he skate to, how will he interpret it, what marvels pf blade control will dazzle us with this time out?

But he did not earn this assignment to worlds. Further, the USFSA continues to diminish the luster of its own crown jewel, the National Championship. This decision does not align with the principles of sport and sportsmanship.

You compete or you don't. You win or you don't. Equipment issues? They are the responsibility of the athlete.

Friend, we are in agreement.

You know my stance on treating US Nationals as a World and Olympic Team trial. That's the way it should be.

If I begrudgingly look at the Body of Work argument, Jason's selection is defensible. I know there are some quantifiable-ish criteria for who placed/scored at various competitions in the past. And all that is fine. But I guess it boils down to this: Jason doesn't have much of a leg to stand on in terms of recent competitions, but neither does anyone else in the mix for that third spot.

If I were playing God with the selection and not going by merit as demonstrated at Nationals, I'd probably pick Jacob Sanchez. He had a good junior season, and as @4everchan reminded me, won a senior international. Plus, there's the intangible benefit of getting a young hope some experience at a huge event.

 

[Seven Sisters]

This morning I’m amusing myself imagining the discussion that will ensue should Camden and Max (and Andrew) skate brilliantly at 4CC. Naturally, as a fan of US men’s skating, this is what I hope for.

Jason, of course, will not be there, so his relative readiness will still be unknown.

 

[4everchan]

Jason is the reason the US has 3 spots this year so I find it hard to hear that he hasn't earned his spot.

Skaters do not earn their own spots to worlds while at worlds. They earn spots for their respective countries.

Camden is generally a trainwreck like someone said upthread. If anyone deserved that third spot it should have been Maxim Naumov who continues to improve exponentially every year.

I tend to agree with that, yet Camden has placed 5th in the worlds in 2022 and has a much higher PCS and GOE ceiling than Max. Max is one of my faves and I see his improvement too but he is not yet at Camden's level if one thinks at "scoring if things go well"

And it's demeaning to the USFSA to imply that Jason and Isabeau "talked" their way into Worlds. They petitioned, like others have in the past (Ashley Wagner, Todd Eldredge) and that's the procedure.

The problems are the following : the rules for petition talk about "injured skater" Isabeau is. Jason is not (as far as we know). The other problem is more subjective : petition are reserved to "dominant" skaters. With the way the season is going, the USA men only have one dominant skater and that's Ilia. Jacob Sanchez in juniors (plus one win at a senior challenger) is the other success story.

I don't think for one nanosecond that Jason will skate if he isn't 100%. He's too professional and loves the sport too much to do that.

I agree with that and I hope, now that he's been named, that he will skate lights out.

But then if there weren't conspiracy drivel what would some of you talk about?

You know, I see some posts that are bringing up conspiracy theories.... etc but I see plenty of posts that just discuss the spots and the petition just with facts and personal opinions, perhaps a bit of frustration at times too... but it's unfair to put everyone in the same boat. Not all the posts about Jason are fueled by conspiracy theorists.

 

[lariko]

Jason is the reason the US has 3 spots this year so I find it hard to hear that he hasn't earned his spot. Camden is generally a trainwreck like someone said upthread. If anyone deserved that third spot it should have been Maxim Naumov who continues to improve exponentially every year. And it's demeaning to the USFSA to imply that Jason and Isabeau "talked" their way into Worlds. They petitioned, like others have in the past (Ashley Wagner, Todd Eldredge) and that's the procedure. I don't think for one nanosecond that Jason will skate if he isn't 100%. He's too professional and loves the sport too much to do that. But then if there weren't conspiracy drivel what would some of you talk about?

Naumov got 4CC and I hope he skates well there. However, there is already Torgashev with one quad and stronger SS, so Naumov needs to show more than one quad and strong SS/performance/personality. Frankly, I feel the initiative to send Brown was the federation's because they simply do not have solid choices, but a lot of question marks. This is where a talented and untried 17 yo would have come in handy, but they are out, no matter how hard they are trying to sell Sanchez as a teen sensation and the next big thing.

 

[Arigato]

Me too!!
My reasoning is that Max wants it more. He comes from a skating family and he doesn’t juggle work like Camden does.
My faves for Olympics would be the Russian Americans: Ilia, Andrew and Max

I don't remember anyone referring to Nathan, Vincent, and Jimmy as Chinese Americans or Brian Boitano as Italian American. But if it is important to you, at least be accurate: Andrew is half-Ukrainian.

 

[CoyoteChris]

I for one am surprised and disappointed in the USFSA.

Jason is my favorite current men's skater, by far. His performances are the only ones I ever rewatch after a competoititon is over. He is the only skater who piques my interest season after season -- what music will he skate to, how will he interpret it, what marvels pf blade control will dazzle us with this time out?

But he did not earn this assignment to worlds. Further, the USFSA continues to diminish the luster of its own crown jewel, the National Championship. This decision does not align with the principles of sport and sportsmanship.

You compete or you don't. You win or you don't. Equipment issues? They are the responsibility of the athlete.

Sadly, I agree with you. He is always my fav US man but the way this was all handled was, IMHO, very bad. Who knew what and when did they know it? Dont want to spead any rumors and yes, I did say that the USFS needed him more than he needs them in a number of ways. I do know that when that Hughes girl decided to not show up at SA 2002 Spokane, an old rival of Frank C. and the promoters of the event, Toby and Barb, told me that MK was given a....a....stipend?.....to show up and win and she filled the seats.....What happened here? Dont know.

 

[TontoK]

Sadly, I agree with you. He is always my fav US man but the way this was all handled was, IMHO, very bad. Who knew what and when did they know it? Dont want to spead any rumors and yes, I did say that the USFS needed him more than he needs them in a number of ways. I do know that when that Hughes girl decided to not show up at SA 2002 Spokane, an old rival of Frank C. and the promoters of the event, Toby and Barb, told me that MK was given a....a....stipend?.....to show up and win and she filled the seats.....What happened here? Dont know.

Like you, I don't know about money changing hands as a stipend.

But I'm certain that Jason would put butts in seats. Isabeau, too, for that matter, to a lesser extent.

Whether that entered into the calculus... who can say. I'll stand on my soapbox and say that it should NOT be a factor.

 

[CoyoteChris]

Like you, I don't know about money changing hands as a stipend.

But I'm certain that Jason would put butts in seats. Isabeau, too, for that matter, to a lesser extent.

Whether that entered into the calculus... who can say. I'll stand on my soapbox and say that it should NOT be a factor.

I am just remined that years ago, I was standing with "Yasa" Nechaeva (I helped support some of her students) in Boston at a practice rink watching Jason practice. We were talking about this very topic and she said positions need to be earned. I believe that too. There are some exceptions (a winter storm cancels your flight to Nationals in Japan from Canada) but some might even say, "Well, storms are usually predicted long in advance and you should have left earlier"

 

[moonvine]

Yeah, the USFSA is going to have to make a lot of amendments to their rulebook as a result of how events have played out through this season. I agree with a comment you made earlier about the National Championship losing its importance. Why put the players through all of the stress that surrounds this event if the results don’t really matter in the end? If the outcome is truly all about body of work at the end of the day, then just let the athletes rest in January and do away with Nationals. Nationals now is really only a marquee event for those who competed through the Regionals and Sectionals competitions to fight for a spot to get there.

We go through this every year it seems.
Nationals are important.
1. They crown a national champion and 2nd, 3rd and 4th place medals.
2. They to an extent determine envelope money for the year, particularly for the lower level finishers (7-8th at Nationals). Of course GP performance, making the GP finals, placements at worlds, etc all also determine funding, but 5th-8th place at Nationals are unlikely to qualify for those.
3. They play a part in determining worlds and 4CCs teams. It is USFS job, particularly when Olympic spots are at stake, to put together the team that is most likely to maintain those spots. Period. Not to reward the podium finishers at Nationals.

 

[moonvine]

If I were playing God with the selection and not going by merit as demonstrated at Nationals, I'd probably pick Jacob Sanchez. He had a good junior season, and as @4everchan reminded me, won a senior international. Plus, there's the intangible benefit of getting a young hope some experience at a huge event.

Jacob does not have a quad (I’m aware Jason doesn’t either). Nationals was Jacob’s first competition on a Senior level and he didn’t finish on the podium. He has no cred with International judges. The places to get International experience are Challengers. Not worlds. Again we are trying to maintain 3 spots here. Not give a kid who has never skated internationally on the senior level a thrill.

 

[TontoK]

Jacob does not have a quad (I’m aware Jason doesn’t either). Nationals was Jacob’s first competition on a Senior level and he didn’t finish on the podium. He has no cred with International judges. The places to get International experience are Challengers. Not worlds. Again we are trying to maintain 3 spots here. Not give a kid who has never skated internationally on the senior level a thrill.

It was Jacob's first senior Nationals, but it was not his first senior event. He won Tallinn Cup in November. We might agree that this Challenger is not the most prestigious event, but among others, he beat Sadovsky, M Selevko, Levandi, Starostin, Circelli, Ma and Martynov. Not the toughest field, ok, but not a list of no-names either.

As far as current year performance, I think he probably had the best outside of Ilia and Andrew.

If you were judging only of the field at Nationals - and not going off placements, which is always my stance - who would you have picked? Personally, I would enjoy Max, but didn't have the results.

 

[lariko]

I hope that the trend of sending men with barely there 3A ends on Brown. And that Canada doesn't pick up where the US left off, but there is a slim hope of that.

 

[4everchan]

I hope that the trend of sending men with barely there 3A ends on Brown. And that Canada doesn't pick up where the US left off, but there is a slim hope of that.

Traditionally, Canadian men have been equipped with quads. This is just a weird phase

 

[Mathman]

I do know that when that Hughes girl decided to not show up at SA 2002 Spokane, an old rival of Frank C. and the promoters of the event, Toby and Barb, told me that MK was given a....a....stipend?.....to show up and win and she filled the seats.....What happened here? Dont know.

Michelle basically admitted this. When Sarah Hughes withdrew the powers that be sent out an SOS to Michelle's agent, Shep Goldberg (RIP) and made him an offer he couldn't refuse. Michelle had decided to take the post-Olympic year off, but "an offer you can't refuse" is an offer you can't refuse.

They didn't even have time to take down all the bigger-than-life Sarah Hughes posters that adorned the downtown business district.

Michelle skated great (especially in the SP). And the extra silver lining was that her her successful "comeback" at Skate America gave her the impetus she needed to jump back in and continue on to Worlds, held in Washington DC that year, where she gave perhaps the most satisfying performance of her career, winning her fifth world championship.

A few years later Evan Lysacek, then Olympic champion, was likewise scheduled to headline Skate America, but his agent was unable to come to terms with the event organizers and the USFSA (so it was reported at the time.)

 

[noskates]

I did not say Jason earned his spot at Worlds this year based on last year's finish. I said he earned three spots for the USA based on his finish. If you're going to critique my post at least read it correctly. NOR did I even intimate that all posts about Jason or anybody else were based on conspiracy theories. I believe my exact words were "some of you" which is an unspecified amount. Geez - I don't think I'm that difficult to read. As for Camden, I have been a fan of his for many years and have had my heart broken time and time again. He skates a great program and then skates a miserable program. You never know what Camden you're going to get (yikes I think I'm quoting Ashley W there) Maybe he's progressed beyond that up and down stuff but then - I've also thought that before. I admire the fact he's graduated from a prestigious university and is working but that doesn't give him a pass in my admiration of his skating. I hope he skates lights out at Worlds but I'm not holding my breath. I'm also not suggesting Maxim should have gone to Worlds - both Camden and Max earned their scores and their opportunities. I just wished Max had earned the bronze. I can do that!!! It's okay to have a different opinion. Unfortunately "dominant skater" is as the saying goes - in the eyes of the beholder. And it isn't always based on the current skating season. As long as judging and choosing are done by humans there will be many more humans questioning their decisions. That's life.

 

[Jammers]

As far as I know he isn’t training quads anymore. But I could be wrong.

Jason stopped training quads years ago when he was still a full time competitor. He's now 30 years old so that ain't ever gonna happen now.

 

[Mathman]

I don't remember anyone referring to Nathan, Vincent, and Jimmy as Chinese Americans or Brian Boitano as Italian American.

I remember when Caroline Zhang, Mirai Nagasu and Ashley Wagner burst onto the scene as America's "we got next" girls and finished 1st 2nd and 3rd at world juniors in 2007. There was some ugliness about "foreigners" taking spots on the national team that rightfully belonged to "Americans."

Zhang was born in Boston, raised in California. Nagasu was born in Los Angeles, raised in Arcadia CA. Wagner was born in Heidelberg, Germany.

(Ashley, like the others, is a U.S. citizen, though -- her dad was stationed at a U.S. army base in Germany at the time).

 

[TontoK]

I remember when Caroline Zhang, Mirai Nagasu and Ashley Wagner burst onto the scene as America's "we got next" girls and finished 1st 2nd and 3rd at world juniors in 2007. There was some ugliness about "foreigners" taking spots on the national team that rightfully belonged to Americans.

Zhang was born in Boston, raised in California. Nagasu was born in Los Angeles, raised in Arcadia CA. Wagner was born in Heidelberg, Germany.

(Ashley, like the others, is a U.S. citizen, though -- her dad was stationed at a U.S. army base inGermany at the time).

You're correct to call this out.

As a man who deeply values my US citizenship, I find it extremely ugly when people categorize or demean my fellow citizens on the basis of immutable characteristics.

These women, and Ilia and Max and Andrew, are my fellow Americans. End of story.

Sorry for the rant. It baffles me when people act that way. Of course, it baffles me when people in our sport advocate for changes in citizenship as though such a thing is no more meaningful than trying out a new brand of dish soap. Dear Lord, we've got 17-year-olds getting married to try to game the process.

 

[Janice4th]

I think that's the whole point though : if he is tired after attempting 7 quads to the point that his backflip is iffy, borderline dangerous, maybe he should save them for the gala

I hate the back flip in the program. I don’t get why everyone goes nuts for it.

 

[FlossieH]

Jacob does not have a quad (I’m aware Jason doesn’t either). Nationals was Jacob’s first competition on a Senior level and he didn’t finish on the podium. He has no cred with International judges. The places to get International experience are Challengers. Not worlds. Again we are trying to maintain 3 spots here. Not give a kid who has never skated internationally on the senior level a thrill.

Jacob's first senior competition was an international competition in the Challenger series, and he won that event. If he hadn't competed internationally as a senior, he would not have been able to gain the technical minimum needed for 4CC or Worlds. I agree that a home Worlds is not the place to send Jacob at this stage in his development, but that is because I do not want unreasonable pressure and expectations to be placed upon him by the general public.