2025 U.S. Nationals Senior Men's Free Skate

[saine]

Jacob's first senior competition was an international competition in the Challenger series, and he won that event. If he hadn't competed internationally as a senior, he would not have been able to gain the technical minimum needed for 4CC or Worlds. I agree that a home Worlds is not the place to send Jacob at this stage in his development, but that is because I do not want unreasonable pressure and expectations to be placed upon him by the general public.

Given the obsession over maintaining the three spots and add on to that it being an Olympic qualifying Worlds, I agree. People can get weird about who lost/maintained spots as it is. He'll be under enough pressure to place top 3 at Junior Worlds to get more JGP spots for next season, let him deal with that first.

 

[el henry]

Jason stopped training quads years ago when he was still a full time competitor. He's now 30 years old so that ain't ever gonna happen now.

Jason never stopped training quads while he was competing full time prior to the 2022 Olys . The fact that he did not put them in his programs did not mean he wasn't training them.

But yes, one of the best parts for me of Jason's "return" after the Olys is his maturity and confidence in just doing what he does well. He has no intention of training them now and has said so.

Of course, being the competitor that he is, he intends to score as highly as he can within the system without a quad. No favors asked, none given.

 

[Mathman]

But yes, one of the best parts for me of Jason's "return" after the Olys is his maturity and confidence in just doing what he does well.

Jason is utterly unique in this regard.

Selfishly, I wish I knew more about the nature of his equipment issues and about what exactly he has to go though to satisfy the USFSA protocols for petitioning athletes. But I can see where the federation is obliged to respect the athlete's privacy, even thought as a fan I have my ears out. Now I feel foolish having posted on and on about what the USFSA can or must do -- and then they didn't.

 

[moonvine]

It was Jacob's first senior Nationals, but it was not his first senior event. He won Tallinn Cup in November. We might agree that this Challenger is not the most prestigious event, but among others, he beat Sadovsky, M Selevko, Levandi, Starostin, Circelli, Ma and Martynov. Not the toughest field, ok, but not a list of no-names either.

As far as current year performance, I think he probably had the best outside of Ilia and Andrew.

If you were judging only of the field at Nationals - and not going off placements, which is always my stance - who would you have picked? Personally, I would enjoy Max, but didn't have the results.

I wouldn't judge only off the field at Nationals, so I don't know. I suppose I would take the top 3. But again I would never do that.

 

[moonvine]

Just out of curiosity, for those who think the top 3 should determine Worlds and Olympics, if say, Ilia had finished 5th, would you really leave him home?

 

[moonvine]

It was Jacob's first senior Nationals, but it was not his first senior event. He won Tallinn Cup in November. We might agree that this Challenger is not the most prestigious event, but among others, he beat Sadovsky, M Selevko, Levandi, Starostin, Circelli, Ma and Martynov. Not the toughest field, ok, but not a list of no-names either.

As far as current year performance, I think he probably had the best outside of Ilia and Andrew.

If you were judging only of the field at Nationals - and not going off placements, which is always my stance - who would you have picked? Personally, I would enjoy Max, but didn't have the results.

Sorry you are correct. Though I may try it is impossible for me to keep up with every challenger, especially when I don't or can't watch them.

 

[artsciboy]

Jason is the reason the US has 3 spots this year so I find it hard to hear that he hasn't earned his spot. Camden is generally a trainwreck like someone said upthread. If anyone deserved that third spot it should have been Maxim Naumov who continues to improve exponentially every year. And it's demeaning to the USFSA to imply that Jason and Isabeau "talked" their way into Worlds. They petitioned, like others have in the past (Ashley Wagner, Todd Eldredge) and that's the procedure. I don't think for one nanosecond that Jason will skate if he isn't 100%. He's too professional and loves the sport too much to do that. But then if there weren't conspiracy drivel what would some of you talk about?

I don't think Ashley Wagner ever petitioned for a World team? When was this?

 

[el henry]

Jason is utterly unique in this regard.

Selfishly, I wish I knew more about the nature of his equipment issues and about what exactly he has to go though to satisfy the USFSA protocols for petitioning athletes. But I can see where the federation is obliged to respect the athlete's privacy, even thought as a fan I have my ears out. Now I feel foolish having posted on and on about what the USFSA can or must do -- and then they didn't.

Out of curiosity I would also love to know the same thing

Jumping off, and not directed at you, I am amazed by any thought that Jason is a favorite of USFS. He has had to fight for recognition ever since the multiple multiple quadsters came on the scene. The previous time that he petitioned for a Worlds spot he was denied.

The thought that Jason now suddenly has some inner pipeline to USFS would make me very happy as a Jason fan. But alas, it is not so

 

[TontoK]

Sorry you are correct. Though I may try it is impossible for me to keep up with every challenger, especially when I don't or can't watch them.

It's not a big deal. @4everchan had to remind me.

As I posted in an earlier post in the thread, the selection of Jason is defensible under the selection criteria. But others would have been defensible, too. After everything played out at Nationals, there was no clear frontrunner, at least for me. And of course, I wish Jason success. And, if it turns out it's an alternate who competes, I wish him the best, too.

 

[RatedPG]

I don't remember anyone referring to Nathan, Vincent, and Jimmy as Chinese Americans or Brian Boitano as Italian American. But if it is important to you, at least be accurate: Andrew is half-Ukrainian.

Correct. He is the son of Ilona Melnichenko and Artem Torgashev, who competed for the Soviet Union in ice dance and pair skating respectively.[2] As a result, Torgashev is fluent in both Englishand Russian.[3]

Half Russian/Half Ukrainian.
But, the boy speaks only Russian and English. Therefore, his ties are closer to Russia than Ukraine
Therefore, my description of Russian/American is accurate and valid. He is both, just like the other two.

Edit: Also, please don’t make an issue out of nothing. I support all ethnicities. It is just that, in this case, those three have this in common and therefore, I can describe them, as such.

 

[el henry]

Correct. He is the son of Ilona Melnichenko and Artem Torgashev, who competed for the Soviet Union in ice dance and pair skating respectively.[2] As a result, Torgashev is fluent in both Englishand Russian.[3]

Half Russian/Half Ukrainian.
But, the boy speaks only Russian and English. Therefore, his ties are closer to Russia than Ukraine
Therefore, my description of Russian/American is accurate and valid. He is both, just like the other two.

Edit: Also, please don’t make an issue out of nothing. I support all ethnicities. It is just that, in this case, those three have this in common and therefore, I can describe them, as such.

No your description is not accurate or valid, according to Andrew himself.

https://jacksonultima.medium.com/jacksonfamily-interviews-ft-andrew-torgashev-171c51cb301c

1. As early as 2017 Andrew made a point to stress both sides of his heritage:

" I was born and raised in Coral Springs, FL and am of Russian and Ukrainian descent. Skating for Team USA"

2. Andrew participated in 2024 in "Skate for Ukraine"

Instagram

www.instagram.com

"Skate for Ukraine - I was invited because of my Ukrainian Heritage. My mother born in Odessa , My grandfather (still in Odessa) gave a lot of his life to developing figure skating in Odessa and Ukraine. Thank you ...for the opportunity to support Ukraine and to partake in an event that supports the people of Ukraine. I’m honored to have a small part in this mission."

Language skills are irrelevant to how Andrew identifies himself, which is an American of Ukrainian and Russian heritage.

 

[CoyoteChris]

Michelle basically admitted this. When Sarah Hughes withdrew the powers that be sent out an SOS to Michelle's agent, Shep Goldberg (RIP) and made him an offer he couldn't refuse. Michelle had decided to take the post-Olympic year off, but "an offer you can't refuse" is an offer you can't refuse.

They didn't even have time to take down all the bigger-than-life Sarah Hughes posters that adorned the downtown business district.

Michelle skated great (especially in the SP). And the extra silver lining was that her her successful "comeback" at Skate America gave her the impetus she needed to jump back in and continue on to Worlds, held in Washington DC that year, where she gave perhaps the most satisfying performance of her career, winning her fifth world championship.

A few years later Evan Lysacek, then Olympic champion, was likewise scheduled to headline Skate America, but his agent was unable to come to terms with the event organizers and the USFSA (so it was reported at the time.)

It was a win win for me! Got to see MK skate and got to see her win! My first Competition.
Bigger than life was correct. One covered the side of a building.
So many memories from that....they gave away tickets to the novice comp dance and packed the temporary rink. And now! Madison Chock and Greg Zuerlein! Maia Shibutani and Alex Shibutani!

 

[Arigato]

Half Russian/Half Ukrainian.
But, the boy speaks only Russian and English. Therefore, his ties are closer to Russia than Ukraine

My mission is to have the audience feel what I feel , freeze a moment of time just for the length of my skating. To the skaters using the same piece this season , I look forward to competing with you.​

​

Skate for Ukraine - I was invited because of my Ukrainian Heritage. My mother born in Odessa , My grandfather (still in Odessa) gave a lot of his life to developing figure skating in Odessa and Ukraine. Thank you @lola_onice for the opportunity to support Ukraine and to partake in an event that supports the people of Ukraine. I’m honored to have a small part in this mission.​

- Andrew Torgashev

Instagram

www.instagram.com

 

[Mathman]

Just out of curiosity, for those who think the top 3 should determine Worlds and Olympics, if say, Ilia had finished 5th, would you really leave him home?

{Edit: corrected version}

That's a good question. In 2009 Evan Lysacek flubbed hs attempted quad at Nationals and fell to third, barely edging out 4th place finisher Ryan Bradley by less than two points. There was talk about whether Lysacek received a two-point gift from the judges because he was the big U.S. hope heading into the Olympic year.

 

[museksk8r]

I certainly would not want USFSA to automatically send the top 3 from Nationals. That has happened in the past with disastrous consequences. 2011 Nationals for example. Jeremy Abbott entered as the 2-time and reigning US Champion, 9th at the 2010 Olympics and 5th at 2010 Worlds, and a 2-time GP medalist (silver and bronze) from that season. Abbott finished 2nd in the SP at that Nationals, but finished in the pewter medal 4th position. Ryan Bradley, Ricky Dornbush, and Ross Miner finished 1, 2, 3 in front of Jeremy and they were selected as the 2011 World team. None of them had medaled during that season’s senior GP and Abbott’s track record had always been above them; however, the USFSA seemed hellbent on punishing Jeremy Abbott for finishing 9th at the Olympics where he could have medaled had he replicated his performances at the 2010 Nationals, even though he had been most instrumental in ensuring the US men had 3 entries for the 2011 Worlds by finishing top 5 at the 2010 Worlds. Abbott was selected for 4CC where he performed respectably to a bronze medal finish. US Champion Ryan Bradley finished 13th at Worlds, silver medalist Ricky Dornbush finished 9th at Worlds, and Ross Miner finished 11th at Worlds, resulting in the US men earning 2 spots for the 2012 Worlds.

I’m sure there are plenty of other examples, but that’s the one that always comes to the forefront of my brain because I recall many were dumbfounded by the committee’s selections and the blatant, disrespectful slap in the face they dealt to Jeremy Abbott at the time.

Oh, just remembered another one, 1993 Phoenix, Arizona Nationals, and the USFSA selecting Nancy Kerrigan, Lisa Ervin, and Tonia Kwiatkowski. That was the most disastrously skated women’s event ever in US Nationals history. Champion Kerrigan had only managed 3 clean triples in the FS along with a horrible fall on a 3Lutz. Silver medalist Ervin did not have the 3Lutz or 3flip, so was only competing up to 3loop. Bronze medalist Kwiatkowski had really skated no better than Tonya Harding (4th) or Nicole Bobek (5th), but was selected over them for her perceived good girl, disciplined, stable image. At that worlds, Kerrigan skated to 1st in the SP, but fell to 9th in the FS completing only 2 triples, and 5th overall where she infamously and shamefully stated in the Kiss & Cry, “I just want to die.” Lisa Ervin with her junior level jump content finished in 13th place, and Tonia Kwiatkowski skated so badly that she failed to make it out of the qualifying round to even skate in the SP. This is why the US women only had 2 entries for the 1994 Olympics.

 

[TontoK]

Just out of curiosity, for those who think the top 3 should determine Worlds and Olympics, if say, Ilia had finished 5th, would you really leave him home?

I support a trials scenario for Nationals. So, yes, I would have left him home.

I'd have been sad for him, or course, but there would have been no question of fairness. In Track and Field and Swimming and numerous other sports, sometimes the favorites don't perform well for whatever reason, and they don't make the team.

The only exception to this rule would have been Nancy Kerrigan, who was the victim of a violent assault from a competitor's camp at the actual event. I'd have broken the rule in that situation.

 

[Mathman]

I certainly would not want USFSA to automatically send the top 3 from Nationals. That has happened in the past with disastrous consequences. 2011 Nationals for example.

This was the period (about 2010 to 2014 when the issue of winning nationals versus body of work came into focus. Previous to that, the problem hardly ever arose (well, maybe Janet Lynn Nowicki versus Julie Lynn Holmes in the early 70s ) For the most part, the best skaters won nationals and the skaters who won nationals were the best.

I am certainly not privy to USFS insiders' thinking, but in terms of what was publicly announced, two factors converged. First USFS began to believe that the USA was disadvantaged by their selection process vis-a-vis other federations who were more active in manipulating things to their favor.

The second factor was that there was some sort of friction between USFS and the USOC. A new head of legal affairs for USFS was hired and he pushed the point that according to the IOC charter, the national OCs have jurisdiction over all Olympic qualifying events. If U.S. Nationals was the sole qualifying event for selection to the Olympic team, them legally speaking the USOC could take over the event and kick USFS out of its own national championship.. This seems far fetched, but the situation had been percolating ecver since the 2002 Salt Lake City Olympics where the whole USOC got in hot water over scandals involving bribery in the site selection bidding, awarding sweetheart contracts to construction companies owned by UIOC members' brothers-ib-law, etc.

By and large, fans and the general public did not pay much attention until 2014 when Ashley Wagner finished 4th at Nationals but was selected for the Olympics over third-place finisher Mirai Nagasu. I believe that a couple of factors played into the subsequent uproar. One was that the TV commentators led viewers to believe that the old 1-2-3 go to the Olympics 4-5-6 go to Four Continents was still in force. The second was that Mirai was a super-popular fan favorite while Ashley had both detractors and supporters. Plus, Mirai was the feel-good comeback kid storybook heroine.

Ever since then, TV commentators have been carefully schooled to say on the air that selectopn to war;d and Olympic teams are decided by a process that takes into account many factors.

 

[Jammers]

This was the period (about 2010 to 2018 when the issue of winning nationals versus body of work came into focus. Previous to that, the problem hardly ever arose (well, maybe Janet Lynn Nowicki versus Julie Lynn Holmes in the early 70s ) For the most part, the best skaters won nationals and the skaters who won nationals were the best.

I am certainly not privy to USFS insiders' thinking, but in terms of what was publicly announced, two factors converged. First USFS began to believe that the USA was disadvantaged by their selection process vis-a-vis other federations who were more active in manipulating things to their favor.

The second factor was that there was some sort of friction between USFS and the USIOC. A new head of legal affairs for USFS was hired and he pushed the point that according to the IOC charter, the national IOCs have jurisdiction over all Olympic qualifying events. If U.S. Nationals was the sole qualifying event for selection to the Olympic team, them legally speaking the USIOC could take over the event and kick the USFSA out of its own national championship.. This seems far fetched, but the situation had been percolating ecver since the 2002 Salt Lake City Olympics where the whole USIOC got in hot water over scandals involving bribery in the site selection bidding, awarding sweetheart contracts to construction companies owned by USIOC members' brothers-ib-law, etc.

By and large, fans and the general public did not pay much attention until 2018 when Ashley Wagner finished 4th at Nationals but was selected for the Olympics over third-place finisher Mirai Nagasu. I believe that a couple of factors played into the subsequent uproar. One was that the TV commentators led viewers to believe that the old 1-2-3 go to the Olympic,s 4-5-6 go to Four Continents was still in force. The second was that Mirai was a super-popular fan favorite while Ashley had both detractors and supporters). Plus, Mirai was the feel-good comeback kid storybook heroine.

Ever since then, TV commentators have been carefully schooled to say on the air that selectopn to war;d and Olympic teams are decided by a process that takes into account many factors.

It was 2014 that Ashley finished 4th and still got picked over Mirai for the Olympics in Sochi.

 

[Mathman]

About petitioning for special exemptions for injury, what I think would be most useful is a more careful definition of what a "dominant athlete" means.

At the present time Ilya Malinin is a dominant athlete. He is odds-on favorite to win 2025 wolds and to continue on as front-runner for the 2026 Olympics. (Anything can happen, of course.)

Was Michelle Kean a "dominat athlete" in 2006? Don;t get me wrong, no one is a bigger Michelle fan that I am. But her last wpord championship was 2003. In 2005 she dropped off the world podium altogether (after a ten-year run). In the 2004-05 season Irina Slutskaya was the dominant athlete of ladies' figure skating. And the previous year Shizuka Arakawa had the best results (although I would not say that she dominated the field.) At Michelle's final public perforance,(a made-for TV skate-off against Sasha Cohen in December, 2005, she was barely able to hobble onto the ice. (She won anyway, in the TV-audiemce-phine-in-the-vote judging.)

 

[Mathman]

It was 2014 that Ashley finished 4th and still got picked over Mirai for the Olympics in Sochi.

Thanks. Corrected. (How time flies. )