2025 U S.Nationals Senior Women's Free Skate

[Skating91]

I would have given Four Continents to Isabeau and said show us what you can do. If you impress here and get through without injury, we will select you for World's. If she's still injured by the time Four Continents comes around, then it means she is only going to have a 5 weeks to prepare for World's at most, while everyone else would have been building up to World's for 6 months.

I would have also rested Amber for Four Continents given she was claiming to be still tired from a GP final 6-7 weeks ago, so it would be Alysa, Sarah, Isabeau.

Isbeau and her entourage have been very reticent to discuss this injury. It makes me wonder how serious it is? It does make sense to skip Nationals because what is the incentive to compete if you can use your injury excuse to gain almost automatic selection for World's with a couple of run-throughs in training.

 

[saine]

Isbeau and her entourage have been very reticent to discuss this injury. It makes me wonder how serious it is? It does make sense to skip Nationals because what is the incentive to compete if you can use your injury excuse to gain almost automatic selection for World's with a couple of run-throughs in training.

If you read the documents I linked about the process, you would know that it's more than a couple of run-throughs in training. It's a process that involves a panel to be cleared to compete. It is not treated lightly at all.

Isabeau does not have to discuss her injury to the public if she doesn't want to. She's allowed privacy in the matter. The only people who need to know are USFS since they are the ones who have to clear her to compete. An 'injury excuse' is not what this is, but that's how you're determined to see it. That says more about you than about Isabeau.

 

[TwinnerA]

Isabeau has the right to petition, but I hope USFSA looks at more than the 2024 Worlds silver medal. Levito had 4 under rotated jumps and 2 edge calls at Skate America, her only competition this year.

I’m wondering if Isabeau was already having foot issues at Skate America and those issues resulted in all the under rotations. Just a thought that I hadn’t considered before.

 

[reader3]

Congrats to Amber and all the medalists.

 

[Skating91]

If you read the documents I linked about the process, you would know that it's more than a couple of run-throughs in training. It's a process that involves a panel to be cleared to compete. It is not treated lightly at all.

Of course, but this is figure skating there is a lot of discretion. They can overlook all the underrotations and hand out 9.5s for two footed skating like they did with one skater, or pick up every borderline rotation problem and hold them back with PCS as they did another.

Is there a minimum score she needs to achieve in these run-throughs? They should probably reveal the scores publicly as well as a video of the performances in the interests of transparency.

I just feel really badly for Sarah is all . She did everything asked of her. Isabeau has been to World's.

I’m wondering if Isabeau was already having foot issues at Skate America and those issues resulted in all the under rotations. Just a thought that I hadn’t considered before.

That could be quite controversial a 17 year old feeling compelled to go out onto the ice carrying an injury, then aggravating it. Let's hope this wasn't the case.

 

[museksk8r]

That could be quite controversial a 17 year old feeling compelled to go out onto the ice carrying an injury, then aggravating it. Let's hope this wasn't the case.

Tom Zakrajsek encouraged both Rachael Flatt (2011 Worlds) and Joshua Farris (2011 Nationals) to compete when badly injured. Anyone watching Joshua Farris skate his long program at the 2011 nationals knew that he should not have been on the ice. He suffered a torn abductor muscle in practice and later learned he had broken his fibula and sprained a tendon when he fell on his second 3Axel attempt in the FS. In the kiss and cry, when Farris told Tom Z that he was so injured he can't walk, Tom Z told him that skating so injured builds character. Tom Z's reaction showed a complete disconnect with what his student was telling and showing him. There was no need to push him to skate when it would just be a traumatizing experience. This event spurred 16 year old Farris to switch coaches to Christy Krall and Damon Allen.

I do worry a similar event could be in the cards for Levito. Is it really in her best interest long term to go through a traumatizing experience with her injury and her scary jump technique?

 

[saine]

Of course, but this is figure skating there is a lot of discretion. They can overlook all the underrotations and hand out 9.5s for two footed skating like they did with one skater, or pick up every borderline rotation problem and hold them back with PCS as they did another.

Is there a minimum score she needs to achieve in these run-throughs? They should probably reveal the scores publicly as well as a video of the performances in the interests of transparency.

I doubt they will reveal any scores or video. This is between her and the USFS. There is no requirement in the policy to reveal it publicly. They don't reveal the the team selection discussions publicly, they aren't going to reveal this.

I just feel really badly for Sarah is all . She did everything asked of her. Isabeau has been to World's.

You can feel badly for Sarah. But there isn't any need to make it out that Isabeau is using an injury serious enough to withdraw from a Grand Prix assignment and Nationals as an excuse to not compete.

 

[Mathman]

Tom Zakrajsek encouraged both Rachael Flatt (2011 Worlds)...

The Rachael Flatt incident was a heartbreaker. I can understand Rachael's dilemma. Competing at worlds and the Olympics was her dream since she was four. Now this stupid injury! I can do this! I can muscle through the pain! There's no quit in me!

IIRC Michelle Kwan said at the time that she could relate to Rachael's situation. Michelle's own hip problem -- some days she was relatively free of symtoms -- I can do this! Some days it was worse -- Oh, bleep. I can't do this.

To me, the villain of the piece was Phil Hersh. After the fact, the USFSA was willing to let it go. But Hersh kept beating the drum month after month without relent until finally the USFSA reluctantly gave in to the adverse publicity and agreed to impose a small fine (a couple of thousand dollars as I recall) on Rachael for "concealing an injury."

By the way, I think that Stanford graduate Rachael finally got her PhD in clinical psychology at U. North Carolina last year and is now a post-doctoral research assistant at the Carolina Institute of Mental Health and Performance Psychology.

Factoid: Guess who was Rachael's date for her senior prom? Patrick Chan. (Rachael got married -- not to Patrick! -- in 2020.)

She got 7th at the 2010 Olympics. Booooo on the judges, she should have been 5th!

 

[readernick]

Tom Zakrajsek encouraged both Rachael Flatt (2011 Worlds) and Joshua Farris (2011 Nationals) to compete when badly injured. Anyone watching Joshua Farris skate his long program at the 2011 nationals knew that he should not have been on the ice. He suffered a torn abductor muscle in practice and later learned he had broken his fibula and sprained a tendon when he fell on his second 3Axel attempt in the FS. In the kiss and cry, when Farris told Tom Z that he was so injured he can't walk, Tom Z told him that skating so injured builds character. Tom Z's reaction showed a complete disconnect with what his student was telling and showing him. There was no need to push him to skate when it would just be a traumatizing experience. This event spurred 16 year old Farris to switch coaches to Christy Krall and Damon Allen.

I do worry a similar event could be in the cards for Levito. Is it really in her best interest long term to go through a traumatizing experience with her injury and her scary jump technique?

People don't like Isabeau's coach because of technique. However, I have never seen any evidence she's anything other than supportive to Isabeau. Isabeau is a perfectionist and hard on herself, her coach seems kinder to her than Tom was to his students. ( Of course, it might be different behind the scenes but that's the same for any coach). There's no evidence Isabeau has been skating while seriously injured.( Unlike many other athletes whose statements have shown this to be common for them- see Kao Miura or Adam Siao Him Fa)

I think the two most likely scenarios are

1. Isabeau is close to recovery and just didn't have time to prepare for Nationals due to injury. In which case, she will be prepared for Worlds and choosing her makes sense from the USFS"s perspective as she's far more likely to get top 5/6 than Sarah. She was sent to junior worlds once and she won it. She's been to Worlds twice and finished 2nd and 4th despite having up and down performances in those seasons. That's a good track record.

2. She's hopeful she will be prepared but is actually still injured. In this case, she won't be able to prove fitness. Sarah will go to worlds in her place. Sarah will be prepared for this due to going to 4CC and her awareness of the possiblity.

Neither of these scenarios are problematic.

Isabeau being allowed to go to Worlds injured would be problematic but that seems highly unlikely due to the USFS now being completely aware of how that will play out in the media and the effect it would have on spots at the Olympics. So, they will truly monitor her and make her prove readiness.

 

[RatedPG]

Also, I checked and Isabeau is 2nd on the World Standings!! That is actually a huge boost to why she should be selected to Worlds. She will be in the final flight of skaters and will remain there, despite the results of Europeans.

Final flight:

Kaori
Isabeau
Chaeyon
Loena - out of Europeans
Amber - will most likely drop to second flight after 4CC/Europeans (but, she probably doesn’t care) - better for her to rest
Nina
Mone

Alt. Anastasiia

 

[Mathman]

Isabeau being allowed to go to Worlds injured would be problematic but that seems highly unlikely due to the USFS now being completely aware of how that will play out in the media and the effect it would have on spots at the Olympics. So, they will truly monitor her and make her prove readiness.

This is well-reasoned and, I think, correct.

In the 1995-96 season, Nicole Bobek was reigning U.S. champion and world bronze medalist. She got injured late in the year and petitioned for a bye to worlds despite skipping 1996 nationals. But in the meantime, she went on a Christmas tour in a Nutcracker show. instead of tending to her injury and preparing for Nationals.

The USFSA took a dim view. (Bobek was the "bad girl" of U.S. figure skating in those days anyway -- spectacular, beautiful, classic arabesque spiral, though. )

The U.S. sent Michelle Kwan, Tonia Kwiatkowshi and Tara Lipinski instead. Kwan won -- the first of her five world championships -- and Kwiatkowski finished a respecable 8th.)

 

[Mathman]

I would have given Four Continents to Isabeau and said show us what you can do.

The world team is selected immediately after the relevant discipline is over at Nationals. The USFSA never sends skaters to 4 continents to see what they can do. The ladies world team has already been set, pending Isabeau passing the required medical and skating preparedness protocols.

In the case of the selections for 4 continents, I believe that usually the front runners for world spots are offered 4C,s too, if they want to compete. Quite often this offer is declined because the time period comprising U.S. Nationals, 4Cs and Worlds is too compressed. But sometimes the skaters welcome the opportunity for an extra competition between Nationals and Worlds.. Amber Glenn and Chock and Bates have already signaled that this is their preference this year.

In men's, we will know later this afternoon whether Jason Brown has been named to the World team. It would greatly surprise me if this were the case.

 

[ramurphy2005]

Amber Glenn and Chock and Bates have already signaled that this is their preference this year.

Amber's already given up her spot at 4CC.

 

[R.D.]

I think that the selection criteria has tightened up on the "body of work" thing and now takes into account only the previous 12 months. Bradie did not compete at all in 2023-24. This year on the Grand Prix circuit she got 5th and 5th in her two events, compared to Alysa 4th and 6th and Sarah Everhardt 4th and 5th. Pretty much even.

Alysa gets some small credit for participating in the most recent Olympics (2022) but Bradie does not get any credit for 2018. Isabeau gets credit for a world medal last year, but Bradie does not get any credit for achievements from years past.

I can see that POV. 2018 was 7 years ago after all. Seems like both are on relatively equivalent footing then (barring any large scoring discrepancies, which I can't speak for).

 

[museksk8r]

This is well-reasoned and, I think, correct.

In the 1995-96 season, Nicole Bobek was reigning U.S. champion and world bronze medalist. She got injured late in the year and petitioned for a bye to worlds despite skipping 1996 nationals. But in the meantime, she went on a Christmas tour in a Nutcracker show. instead of tending to her injury and preparing for Nationals.

The USFSA took a dim view. (Bobek was the "bad girl" of U.S. figure skating in those days anyway -- spectacular, beautiful, classic arabesque spiral, though. )

The U.S. sent Michelle Kwan, Tonia Kwiatkowshi and Tara Lipinski instead. Kwan won -- the first of her five world championships -- and Kwiatkowski finished a respecable 8th.)

Nicole didn’t skip Nationals in 1996. She competed in the SP and finished in 3rd due to a hand down on her 3Lutz in combination with a 2toe. The rest of her program was flawless though including a clean 3toe and 2Axel. During the FS warmup she suffered a fall that re-aggravated her ankle injury and withdrew before the FS. She lost her bid to be assigned to the World team by the vote of 1 committee member. She was also having boot issues around this time and was assigned to the Centennial Cup on Ice in Russia in February 1996. She delivered 2 of the worst skates in the history of her career falling on every jump in the SP and reducing all of the triples in her FS to doubles and finished in last place. She was being coached by Barbara Roles Williams at the time, her 9th of the 12 coaching changes in her Olympic eligible career.

 

[Skater Boy]

I would have given Four Continents to Isabeau and said show us what you can do. If you impress here and get through without injury, we will select you for World's. If she's still injured by the time Four Continents comes around, then it means she is only going to have a 5 weeks to prepare for World's at most, while everyone else would have been building up to World's for 6 months.

I would have also rested Amber for Four Continents given she was claiming to be still tired from a GP final 6-7 weeks ago, so it would be Alysa, Sarah, Isabeau.

Isbeau and her entourage have been very reticent to discuss this injury. It makes me wonder how serious it is? It does make sense to skip Nationals because what is the incentive to compete if you can use your injury excuse to gain almost automatic selection for World's with a couple of run-throughs in training.

I totally agree. Isabeau's situation has Rachel Flatt overtones. I get it. It is hard to get out of US Nationals and gete a spot to go to worlds I get the desire for privacy and strategy. But I sabeau has not been seen completing for like the fall. That's a long time.She has grown as well. kudos to her for earning three spots for the US last year and a world silver medal. No easy feat. i apprecciate this is about her, her career and really doing best for her but it is concerning.

 

[b-man]

The Rachael Flatt incident was a heartbreaker. I can understand Rachael's dilemma. Competing at worlds and the Olympics was her dream since she was four. Now this stupid injury! I can do this! I can muscle through the pain! There's no quit in me!

IIRC Michelle Kwan said at the time that she could relate to Rachael's situation. Michelle's own hip problem -- some days she was relatively free of symtoms -- I can do this! Some days it was worse -- Oh, bleep. I can't do this.

To me, the villain of the piece was Phil Hersh. After the fact, the USFSA was willing to let it go. But Hersh kept beating the drum month after month without relent until finally the USFSA reluctantly gave in to the adverse publicity and agreed to impose a small fine (a couple of thousand dollars as I recall) on Rachael for "concealing an injury."

By the way, I think that Stanford graduate Rachael finally got her PhD in clinical psychology at U. North Carolina last year and is now a post-doctoral research assistant at the Carolina Institute of Mental Health and Performance Psychology.

Factoid: Guess who was Rachael's date for her senior prom? Patrick Chan. (Rachael got married -- not to Patrick! -- in 2020.)

She got 7th at the 2010 Olympics. Booooo on the judges, she should have been 5th!

As a Mirai fan, I must disagree. Flatt had already been to the Olympics. A withdrawal here would not affect her chance for future Olympics. Rachel scored 180 at Four Continents (9 points behind Mirai), yet dropped to 154 points, a drop of 26 points at worlds, and finished a distant 12th. A healthy and trained Mirai was left at home. Rachel should have followed Michelle's lead from 2006.

 

[reneerose]

Liu started well in the free skate, got away with no call on the 2A in the sequence (clearly underrotated don't know how they miss this), but just ran out of energy and there wasn't much power left for the combo in the second half, the step sequence, big mistake on the spin. It feels a little like a hastily put together exhibition program as well with the moving the arms and bopping to the music. It seems like maybe she doesn't have much of a dance background, so maybe they need something that plays to her strengths like with the SP.

I know this is Liu's first season back, but I really wonder how she would do with a different choreographer than Scali. I agree the SP and FS seemed like Parts 1 and 2 of an exhibition program, I had flashbacks of her last Stars on Ice skates She really does have a wonderful quality to entertain and an elegant polish so her PCS could be even much more improved with some different input to her choreography and work on transitions.

 

[4everchan]

Factoid: Guess who was Rachael's date for her senior prom? Patrick Chan. (Rachael got married -- not to Patrick! -- in 2020.)

Rachael has great taste in dates.

 

[RobinA]

P.S. About the selection process for Words, the USFSA is following their published and well-circulated rules. Isabeau has the right to petition, She is ranked higher on the selection list than either Alysa or Sarah because of recent body of work, especially 2024 world silver.

This is a funny sport. In 2019 Alysa Liu did a triple Axel and won, beating defending champion Bradie Tunnell (Amber Glenn 7th). In 2020 Alysa did a triple Axel and attempted (but unsuccessfully) a quad Lutz and held offf Bradie (Amber 5th).

In 2025 Amber is the one with a triple Axel, which was enough to nip Alysa and outpoint Bradie.

I have only one word of advice for Amber: Sell it, sell it, sell it! (OK, six words). If you skate well but not perfectly, come off the ice like you just hit a home run. Don't look like you want to shoot yourself. No crying in figure skating!

Rudy Galindo's championship performance in 1996 has been mentioned. Rudy came off the ice with a look on his face like "I just had a dream where I was magically transported to paradise and gave the skating performance of my or anyone else's life!"

Yes. As Scott Hamilton used to say, Don't sell your mistakes.!