2025 Worlds: Ice Dance thoughts and comments

[Mathman]

The more ice dance discussion i read, the more I feel that perhaps a lot of fans are judging it by what they personally feel and expecting the judges (and tech guys) to follow suit. Which isn't going to happen.

I agree. I think that the average fan knows next to nothing about how the sport of ice dance is scored, but they do know that -- WOW, I really enjoyed that performance! More like that, please!

Actually, this is not necessarily a bad thing.

 

[4everchan]

I agree. I think that the average fan knows next to nothing about how the sport of ice dance is scored, but they do know that -- WOW, I really enjoyed that performance! More like that, please!

Actually, this is not necessarily a bad thing.

The average fan who knows next to nothing may just say " oh... i really loved this performance... why isn't it first"
However, in this forum, there are very educated and passionate fans who have learned a few things or two about the sport and its strange scoring...

And I would add that anyone is now able to look at skatingscores and see for themselves.

Let's say that I am looking at the free dance how are judges 1-5 scoring LaLa so differently than judges 6-9....

Sure, judges should be able to express their own perception... but why such a gap? It's actually impossible to explain unless you have been in touch with Yuri B

So, I would offer an alternative fans just go with what they like...

Fans do not trust judges because of the discrepancies in the judges scores... so if there is nothing concrete and stable to rely on, what else can fans rely on ? If the judges argue so much so that a team can get a 4th place in the FD from one judge but a 12th place from another... and you know this is with a cleanish performance... (it's sometimes easier to understand why a team may get all over the place scores when they have fallen as judges may or may not deduct on PCS or GOE depending on where and how the mistake happened)...

So I beg to differ that fans are only going with what they liked.

The reality is that the Free Dance at worlds was a complete mess scoring wise and I hope that the ISU will look into it...

 

[saine]

I agree. I think that the average fan knows next to nothing about how the sport of ice dance is scored, but they do know that -- WOW, I really enjoyed that performance! More like that, please!

Actually, this is not necessarily a bad thing.

I think it's a bad thing if the fan descriptions of scoring makes it sound like Game of Thrones to me. This is talk about countries that a coach has based on judges I've seen in other places.

 

[TontoK]

The more ice dance discussion i read, the more I feel that perhaps a lot of fans are judging it by what they personally feel and expecting the judges (and tech guys) to follow suit. Which isn't going to happen.

There's wisdom in this post.

Honestly, I can't really look at a step sequence or most other dance elements to tell you the level it achieved, and especially those where the men and women are assessed separately. I'm completely at the mercy of the technical panel there. And while there are always accusations of bias, I'm not in a knowledgeable position to confirm or refute those claims. I just accept the results. When I'm confused at a score, I look at the protocol. After a while, you learn some of the tech panel, and have more/less confidence in them. Judy Blumberg, for example, is an absolute dance stickler, and if she sees a level 2 pattern, that's what you're getting, and it doesn't matter if you're the second coming of Torvill and Dean.

I think most fans are in my position. We can armchair judge a jump, some of us are OK with spin levels - I'm getting better here. But dance is a different animal altogether.

Also, dance fans are completely illogical. We SAY we want more movement in the standings, but I don't think we really do. Given a static field, if one dance team moves UP then that means another goes DOWN - more than one goes down if the jump forward is significant. It has to be that way. But, Holy Cow, God forbid MY FAVORITES are the ones on the downward half of that equation, or conversely, a team we don't particularly enjoy moves up.

Side rant: My other favorite fan gripe is about PCS movement. "He only got 82 at Lombardia, and NOW he's getting 87? Rigged!" I mean, don't we expect skaters to improve as the season goes on? Is the tentative program debut supposed to cement the score and placement until next year?

 

[Mathman]

Judy Blumberg, for example, is an absolute dance stickler, and if she sees a level 2 pattern, that's what you're getting, and it doesn't matter if you're the second coming of Torvill and Dean.

Blumberg and Seibert, at the 1984 Olympics, got third in compulsory patterns and third in original dance. But in the free dance, the Italian judge placed them lower than all the other judges on the panel did. The judge explained afterward that she considered their choice of music (Scheherazade) to be "inappropriate for Ice Dance." They finished fourth overall to rising talents Klimova and Pomomarenko.

Blumberg and Seibert retired after the next season and Klimova and Pomomarenko went on to become Olympic champions in 1992.

But wait -- there's more! Blumberg and Seibert's USA Olympic teammates in 1984 were Carol Fox (from Livonia, Michigan) and Richard Dailey, who finished a respectable fifth. The reason I know this is because she donated her costume to be displayed at the local Applebee's restaurant in Livonia, and it's still there in a glass case with a with a little plaque.

According to Wikipedia, Blumberg once said that the reason she agreed to partner with Seibert is that "their kneses were compatible." They used the same knee action in their stroking.

 

[reneerose]

I want to see dance compulsories again, call me silly, but I miss them ETA: except now I remember it wouldn't be just 5 pairs it would be everyone in the ice dance competitions, so forget it! LOL

 

[TontoK]

I feel like I'm corresponding with a celebrity, @Mathman

You've been to the Applebee's in Livonia! And you've seen Ms Fox's costume, appropriately preserved behind glass!

Fancy!

 

[Mathman]

Side rant: My other favorite fan gripe is about PCS movement. "He only got 82 at Lombardia, and NOW he's getting 87? Rigged!" I mean, don't we expect skaters to improve as the season goes on? Is the tentative program debut supposed to cement the score and placement until next year?

I remember even back in the 6.0 days that it was routine for commentators early on (for instance at Skate America, usually the first Grand Prix event) to come out with, "Well, that program is clearly a work in progress. We'll have to see how it gels as the season progresses."

My impression overall of ice dance judges is that they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If all 9 judges agree that this ream was the best and that one second best, then this proves that there us a vast conspiracy to prop up the "judges; favorites" ahead of other more deserving couples. But if judges 1, and 3 give the nod to couple A and judges 7, 8 and 9 favor couple B, that proves that there are two less-vast but equally nefarious conspiracies.

If one judge gives a ream low-ball marks, that proves that there is a rotten apple in the box. If two judges do it, that's worse -- not only are there twice as many rotten apples but the rotten apples are in sinister cahoots with each other. In a way,the recent Yuri Balkov case is a breath of fresh air. Here we have actual proof of wrong-doing and not just partisan wuz-robbing.

 

[4everchan]

Again, why not examine LaLa's free dance scores Look at the judges who ranked them way lower than what they would normally get for a program without a big mistake. Let's not forget how they usually rank thanks to their great technical ability, their speed and glide, the quality of their edges, the competent (if less interesting than usually perhaps) packaging etc.

You will find a group of judges who may also have been in touch with Yuri or Salome
You will find also who these judges ranked higher ...

and then you may also understand that some fans are not always screaming wuzrob but may have observed something valid. There is no point discussing 6.0 era in this specific thread... if this is about the ice dance at Boston worlds, then let's not divert our attention ....

I am sure I am not the only one who noticed that strange scoring

 

[saine]

I remember even back in the 6.0 days that it was routine for commentators early on (for instance at Skate America, usually the first Grand Prix event) to come out with, "Well, that program is clearly a work in progress. We'll have to see how it gels as the season progresses."

My impression overall of ice dance judges is that they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If all 9 judges agree that this ream was the best and that one second best, then this proves that there us a vast conspiracy to prop up the "judges; favorites" ahead of other more deserving couples. But if judges 1, and 3 give the nod to couple A and judges 7, 8 and 9 favor couple B, that proves that there are two less-vast but equally nefarious conspiracies.

If one judge gives a ream low-ball marks, that proves that there is a rotten apple in the box. If two judges do it, that's worse -- not only are there twice as many rotten apples but the rotten apples are in sinister cahoots with each other. In a way,the recent Yuri Balkov case is a breath of fresh air. Here we have actual proof of wrong-doing and not just partisan wuz-robbing.

Then the ISU needs to do a better job at making sure everyone understands why the scores are the way they are.

They're going to get conspiracy theories if teams come off the ice and don't understand why they didn't do as well as they thought. And if the commentators don't either. It'll keep going as long as watchers don't understand.

I trust the judges, but the ISU is making it easy for conspiracy theories. That's on them if they want people to trust the judging.

 

[Mathman]

I am not sanguine about the ISU's prospects for making people trust the scoring of a judged sport.

Suppose the ISU convened a tribunal and called the 2025 Worlds ice dance panel on the carpet.

ISU: Why did you score this team so high?

Judges 1-5: We were impressed by their speed and glide, the quality of their edges.

ISU: Did Carol Lane make you do it?

Judges 1-5: Who?

ISU to judges 6-9: Why did you score this team so low?

Judges 6-9: We were not overly impressed with their speed and flow nor with the quality of their edges.

ISU: Did Yuri Balkov make you do it?

Judges 6-9: Who?

Back in 2002 the ISU hoped that the IJS would make figure skating judging less controversial. Has it? It seems like after every competition, no matter who wins or loses, fans rush to the internet to post stop-frame screen.captures proving that some skater should have got a q on her triple Salchow, those rotten cheating lying tech specialists!. I do not expect this to change, no matter what the ISU does or doesn't do to win over fans or to educate them about the scoring rules.

 

[throw_triple_flip]

The average fan who knows next to nothing may just say " oh... i really loved this performance... why isn't it first"
However, in this forum, there are very educated and passionate fans who have learned a few things or two about the sport and its strange scoring...

And I would add that anyone is now able to look at skatingscores and see for themselves.

Let's say that I am looking at the free dance how are judges 1-5 scoring LaLa so differently than judges 6-9....

Sure, judges should be able to express their own perception... but why such a gap? It's actually impossible to explain unless you have been in touch with Yuri B

So, I would offer an alternative fans just go with what they like...

Fans do not trust judges because of the discrepancies in the judges scores... so if there is nothing concrete and stable to rely on, what else can fans rely on ? If the judges argue so much so that a team can get a 4th place in the FD from one judge but a 12th place from another... and you know this is with a cleanish performance... (it's sometimes easier to understand why a team may get all over the place scores when they have fallen as judges may or may not deduct on PCS or GOE depending on where and how the mistake happened)...

So I beg to differ that fans are only going with what they liked.

The reality is that the Free Dance at worlds was a complete mess scoring wise and I hope that the ISU will look into it...

Many fans might be knowledgeable to some degree but that doesn't necessarily make them correct or not susceptible to bias. Being "passionate" can cloud your judgment.

Can you honestly say that you would be complaining quite so much if the team that you're so devoted to had won a medal in Boston?



Scores varying to those degrees is also more common than you want to admit, even in ice dance.

 

[4everchan]

Many fans might be knowledgeable to some degree but that doesn't necessarily make them correct or not susceptible to bias.

I didn't imply that And I am the first one aware of my own biases Being biased in figure skating, doesn't automatically being wrong.

My favourite dance team is actually Piper and Paul. Last year, I thought they deserved the gold. This year, I think they should have been closer in the RD but I am perfectly fine with Madison and Evan winning the gold because they skated very well. I am not a fan of their style of skating but they did way less posing and way more skating and the skating they did was top quality. Hard to deny them the title

 

[saine]

I am not sanguine about the ISU's prospects for making people trust the scoring of a judged sport.

Suppose the ISU convened a tribunal and called the 2025 Worlds ice dance panel on the carpet.

ISU: Why did you score this team so high?

Judges 1-5: We were impressed by their speed and glide, the quality of their edges.

ISU: Did Carol Lane make you do it?

Judges 1-5: Who?

ISU to judges 6-9: Why did you score this team so low?

Judges 6-9: We were not overly impressed with their speed and flow nor with the quality of their edges.

ISU: Did Yuri Balkov make you do it?

Judges 6-9: Who?

Back in 2002 the ISU hoped that the IJS would make figure skating judging less controversial. Has it? It seems like after every competition, no matter who wins or loses, fans rush to the internet to post stop-frame screen.captures proving that some skater should have got a q on her triple Salchow, those rotten cheating lying tech specialists!. I do not expect this to change, no matter what the ISU does or doesn't do to win over fans or to educate them about the scoring rules.

There will always be disagreements over judging. But even if IJS didn't solve all the issues, I'll take it over 6.0.

It was easy for me to understand when I watched Torino as a four-year fan. And I trusted those results more than 6.0.

 

[4everchan]

Then the ISU needs to do a better job at making sure everyone understands why the scores are the way they are.

They're going to get conspiracy theories if teams come off the ice and don't understand why they didn't do as well as they thought. And if the commentators don't either. It'll keep going as long as watchers don't understand.

I trust the judges, but the ISU is making it easy for conspiracy theories. That's on them if they want people to trust the judging.

Yup
My feeling exactly...

the problem I ma having lately is that I actually even have been an advocate for "trust the judges, it's different live at the rink.. and they know better" but then, when it starts to add up and add up and add up, and as you said, when the skaters are confused about their ranking and scores, when their coaches do not get it (I may not be an expert but skaters and coaches are) and then the commentators, some of which are experts do not get it either...

How am I supposed to accept something nobody understands ? It's an act of faith that I am not willing to make, not with the ISU's history.

 

[4everchan]

I am not sanguine about the ISU's prospects for making people trust the scoring of a judged sport.

Suppose the ISU convened a tribunal and called the 2025 Worlds ice dance panel on the carpet.

ISU: Why did you score this team so high?

Judges 1-5: We were impressed by their speed and glide, the quality of their edges.

ISU: Did Carol Lane make you do it?

Carol Lane is not their coach. She has no interest in LaLa scoring higher than her own teams. Don't forget they were in direct competition with Bashynska Beaumont or even Carolane and Shane for while... So I get you are trying to divert a serious topic with an entertaining post, but I am not ready for that I am really curious about what some fans who are willing to discuss that strange event have to say. If that doesn't interest others, that's fine.

Judges 1-5: Who?

ISU to judges 6-9: Why did you score this team so low?

Judges 6-9: We were not overly impressed with their speed and flow nor with the quality of their edges.

but that would be wrong because it's not just a subjective thing... it is possible to assess depth of edges, precision of edges and flow objectively.

ISU: Did Yuri Balkov make you do it?

Judges 6-9: Who?

Back in 2002 the ISU hoped that the IJS would make figure skating judging less controversial. Has it? It seems like after every competition, no matter who wins or loses, fans rush to the internet to post stop-frame screen.captures proving that some skater should have got a q on her triple Salchow, those rotten cheating lying tech specialists!. I do not expect this to change, no matter what the ISU does or doesn't do to win over fans or to educate them about the scoring rules.

IJS is way better than 6.0 which was all about block judging.

However, in this case, there is a feeling that IJS judged found a way to block judge again... if that becomes common, especially a year before the olympics, it's a great threat for our beloved sport.

Do not forget how reshuffling teams happen at the end of a cycle in ice dance... Clearly, the Americans are willing to promote CPom with the imminent retirement of Chock and Bates after the games. The French were dropped, perhaps because they will no longer be the top French team.
LaLa were dropped... in the hope of bringing back up the Georgians... etc etc

Smart and Dieck received a very surprisingly high tech score for their abilities. They skated well but they do not skate with the quality of other top teams. However, their Dune program is very likeable by a one in a four year audience... having them seeded on the GP next year,, whether or not they keep their FD, that FD will be shown... so there is certainly a popularity factor to consider here. Same with Lilah and Lewis... Think about it, having these two teams as exciting newer prospects, with the kind of material they show, could bring in attention within the one in a four year fans.

So there are a lot of aspects of judging here that can be scrutinized. Nothing to do with fan wars of fan biases.

 

[throw_triple_flip]

Then the ISU needs to do a better job at making sure everyone understands why the scores are the way they are.

They're going to get conspiracy theories if teams come off the ice and don't understand why they didn't do as well as they thought. And if the commentators don't either. It'll keep going as long as watchers don't understand.

I trust the judges, but the ISU is making it easy for conspiracy theories. That's on them if they want people to trust the judging.

I agree, but I fear that still wouldn't be enough for many of the conspiracy theorists at this point.

 

[throw_triple_flip]

Carol Lane is not their coach. She has no interest in LaLa scoring higher than her own teams. Don't forget they were in direct competition with Bashynska Beaumont or even Carolane and Shane for while... So I get you are trying to divert a serious topic with an entertaining post, but I am not ready for that I am really curious about what some fans who are willing to discuss that strange event have to say. If that doesn't interest others, that's fine.

but that would be wrong because it's not just a subjective thing... it is possible to assess depth of edges, precision of edges and flow objectively.

IJS is way better than 6.0 which was all about block judging.

However, in this case, there is a feeling that IJS judged found a way to block judge again... if that becomes common, especially a year before the olympics, it's a great threat for our beloved sport.

Do not forget how reshuffling teams happen at the end of a cycle in ice dance... Clearly, the Americans are willing to promote CPom with the imminent retirement of Chock and Bates after the games. The French were dropped, perhaps because they will no longer be the top French team.
LaLa were dropped... in the hope of bringing back up the Georgians... etc etc

Smart and Dieck received a very surprisingly high tech score for their abilities. They skated well but they do not skate with the quality of other top teams. However, their Dune program is very likeable by a one in a four year audience... having them seeded on the GP next year,, whether or not they keep their FD, that FD will be shown... so there is certainly a popularity factor to consider here. Same with Lilah and Lewis... Think about it, having these two teams as exciting newer prospects, with the kind of material they show, could bring in attention within the one in a four year fans.

So there are a lot of aspects of judging here that can be scrutinized. Nothing to do with fan wars of fan biases.

But she is a coach for Canadians commentating for Canadian television.

Conversely, on the BBC, Robin Cousins was complimentary about the Canadian team, but wasn't sure it was quite enough to beat Carreira and Ponomarenko. Which was correct.


And your hypothesis about "exciting young teams" being favoured would help Lajoie and Lagha, surely? And also the top French team.
You're contradicting yourself to fit a biased narrative about teams being "dropped". Even if there is some reason to investigate the scoring, that doesn't change the fact that some teams simply didn't perform as well as they could.

 

[gkelly]

but that would be wrong because it's not just a subjective thing... it is possible to assess depth of edges, precision of edges and flow objectively.

This is the problem.

These things are extremely important to the technical evaluation of ice dance.

But they are not being measured objectively with instruments. They are being assessed by the human eye.

It is possible to assess them without bias, with more knowledge than most fans can bring to the process and from a better seat.

In the sense that such assessment is unbiased (except in those situations when it isn't), it could be considered "objective."

But it still relies on human perception. Which are estimates, not exact measurements. And potentially affected by external factors such as expectations, skate order, etc. So unfortunately we can't really call these assessments perfectly objective. They're just the best we have available for now.

Technology that would actually measure things like ice speed, edge depth, edge security would make the evaluation more objective in a true sense of the word. But at what costs (financially and otherwise)?

For fans at home, camerawork and editing can also introduce huge distortions of the relative quality of different teams. Most likely unintentionally, at least in terms of trying to influence which teams look "better" on video. But, e.g., the perception of smoothness and flow, or even of speed, can be significantly influenced by the number of cuts or dissolves between cameras or the number of closeups vs. medium shots, etc.

 

[4everchan]

But she is a coach for Canadians commentating for Canadian television.

Conversely, on the BBC, Robin Cousins was complimentary about the Canadian team, but wasn't sure it was quite enough to beat Carreira and Ponomarenko. Which was correct.

Which was correct ? In your opinion... I believe this is one of the rare occasions that C POM have beaten LaLa... a collateral damage from the lowballing form judges 6-9.

And your hypothesis about "exciting young teams" being favoured would help Lajoie and Lagha, surely?

And also the top French team.
You're contradicting yourself to fit a biased narrative about teams being "dropped".

I am not contradicting myself when I mention this because I was refering to programs who may appeal to a broader audience and LaLa's free dance missed the mark this year... does it mean it was badly skated? Does it mean their skillset is inferior ? Or do we see a switch in judging to reward what the public may like or be excited about " Dune" "Disco Brits" rather than classical lyrical free dances.

Even if there is some reason to investigate the scoring, that doesn't change the fact that some teams simply didn't perform as well as they could.

but that's the point . Their performance was good.
Lilah and Lewis had 2 major mistakes yet are on the podium

That's quite a contradiction right ?